Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[setsuna86]

Originally Posted by kazzuya13

How many days before the TL is posted? cause it seems that the progress is at 100% a few days ago.

I have already the link sinec Monday. Here is it:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...imDZS0kBM/edit

[ngng]

I think kazzuya13 means the TL of volume 7 chapter 2 on BT since the registration page has 100% completion.

Setsuna86, can you confirm whether "guns" exist in Madan no Ou? Volume 6 chapter 4 text has "guns" when talking about Jermaine's knights holding "two guns in both underarms" during the intoduction scene of Princes Jermaine and before Olga's duel with the knight. I don't doubt your translation, but it seems to be out of place unless it was a mistake of the author.

[setsuna86]

Originally Posted by ngng

I think kazzuya13 means the TL of volume 7 chapter 2 on BT since the registration page has 100% completion.

Setsuna86, can you confirm whether "guns" exist in Madan no Ou? Volume 6 chapter 4 texts has "guns" when talking about Jermaine's knights holding "two guns in both underarms". I don't doubt your translation, but it seems weird unless it was a mistake of the author.

I think it was "spears", but I will confirm it and give a definitive answer. BTW, the ch 2; I will post on BT tis week end.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ngng

Anyone checks if guns actually exist in Madan no Ou? I know guns might not matter because using the black bow is equivalent to firing a "nucular" bomb, but at least you don't die from firing a gun. Because volume 6 chapter 4 said Jermaine's knights had "two guns under both arms". And knights using guns are just so silly because anyone can bcome knights then.

I'm going to ignore most of your post(s) because they're OT. Also, did you really have to ask the same question four times in half a day? Give people a reasonable amount of time to respond.

But regarding this point, it is likely a translation error. Having said that though, there's no reason they couldn't have flintlock pistols or muskets. Technology-wise, they're right around the same level as a canon (pack in powder, load one bullet). The thing to remember though is that old firearms were incredibly inaccurate, slow, and probably expensive to make. If you want to equip an army, finding archers and giving them a bow is simply a better choice

Also. your logic is faulty. Being able to use a weapon has nothing to do with becoming a knight. You have to be a noble before you can become a knight.

[ngng]

Ok, so assuming that it was a translation error, then since June 27 when it was posted on BT and no one caught it? Not that I am any better since I only noticed it on the 4th time reading volume 6, most readers were too caught up with the story like me to notice something like that the first time.

@Rasen, excuse me but I think your logic is also fault about being "noble before becoming a knight", remember Roland? He was not a noble and he became a knight through his effort. So that means anyone even commoner can become knight. Sure, it can be an exception, but since an exception exists then "being a noble before becoming a knight" logic makes no sense. I am not sure if youunderstand my words correctly, but I was calling out the silliness of having guns there. The texts threw me off so I was confused and assume Asvarre was different about choosing their knights.

Sorry about the rambling, I just love this series so much that I don't want to be disappointed like Index disaster.

[Ramero]

Originally Posted by ngng

Ok, so assuming that it was a translation error, then since June 27 when it was posted on BT and no one caught it? Not that I am any better since I only noticed it on the 4th time reading volume 6, most readers were too caught up with the story like me to notice something like that.

@Rasen, excuse me but I think your logic is also fault about being "noble before becoming a knight", remember Roland? He was not a noble and he became a knight through his effort. So that means anyone even commoner can become knight. Sure, it can be an exception, but since an exception exists then "being a noble before becoming a knight" does not make sense.

About the guns, the texts threw me off so I was confused and assume Asvarre was different about choosing their knights.

It does makes sense though about "being a noble before becoming a knight" but the odds was very small compared to being a knight first before becoming a noble. Noble are usually gained through efforts that someone give for country and recognized by every people of it including the neighboring country.

Selection of Knights from every country varies and depends on their tradition.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ngng

@Rasen, excuse me but I think your logic is also fault about being "noble before becoming a knight", remember Roland? He was not a noble and he became a knight through his effort. So that means anyone even commoner can become knight. Sure, it can be an exception, but since an exception exists then "being a noble before becoming a knight" logic makes no sense. I am not sure if youunderstand my words correctly, but I was calling out the silliness of having guns there. The texts threw me off so I was confused and assume Asvarre was different about choosing their knights.

Originally Posted by Ramero

It does makes sense though about "being a noble before becoming a knight" but the odds was very small compared to being a knight first before becoming a noble. Noble are usually gained through efforts that someone give for country and recognized by every people of it including the neighboring country.

I'll just address both of you at the same time.

Yes, Roland was a commander knight. But you can't just become a knight through effort. You have to have connections, in Roland's case, the King. And the King is an unusually liberal person, as seen by how he treats Tigre.

Just because you can fight doesn't mean you are a knight. You have to get knighted by a noble. It is very similar to the samurai system in Japan. You couldn't just "become" a samurai, regardless of how well you fight.

In medieval times, it was typically nobles who had the free time to learn how to fight. Regular, commoner people, had to spend all their time farming so they could live. Furthermore, look at the way Zchted people treated bow-users. Bows were viewed as the "commoner's weapon." Swords were the weapons for the gentry class.

In short, the children from noble families were the ones who made up the vast majority of the knight class. And as a result, knights were viewed as a privileged class. Knights would discriminate against commoners who became knights, because they felt the commoner did not belong.

Now, if you're going to point to the number of soldiers, that's a different issue. Regular people can be conscripted to fight, but they're not called knights.

[ngng]

I mean your statement about "You have to be a noble before becoming a knight" is technically 100% incorrect since Roland is an exception. But if your statement changes to "You can also become a knight if you are already a noble", then it is correct because Tigre is the prime example (Lumiere title).

Oh no, you bash one of my favorite character Roland and deny his effort by disclosing his connection to the King. No, just kidding. Sure, he might have connection to the king, but it was just the king noticed the youth's name and encouraged him, King Faron did not give his financial support to Roland. He only met Roland again when Roland was knighted. Please re-read volume 3 chapter 4 please. Roland did not use his connection with the King to become knight, he became knight through his effort alone. I just re-read Madan no Ou since yesterday and still remember most details.

Rasen's small mistake: it is Brune who looked down on archers, not Zchted. Zchted valued archers highly, that was why Tigre's ransom was so high (ref: volume 1 chapter 4) and even Elen cod do nothing about it.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ngng

I mean your statement about "You have to be a noble before becoming a knight" is technically 100% incorrect since Roland is an exception. But if your statement changes to "You can also become a knight if you are already a noble", then it is correct because Tigre is the prime example (Lumiere title).

Fine, I wasn't 100% correct. I'll take 99.9% correct.

No, you bash one of my favorite character Roland and deny his effort by disclosing his connection to the King. No, just kidding. Sure, he might have connections to the king, but it was just the king noticed the youth, King Farron did not give his financial support to Roland because Roland was a commoner then. He only met Roland again when Roland is knighted.

I'm not bashing Roland and his hardwork. I'm pointing out that fairness was not a defining characteristic of medieval times, especially when you have society basically divided into two classes: the landowners and the peasants who work on the land.

Roland took part in a trial to become knighted, and he had to beat other experienced knights. Again, given that nobles are the ones who have the free time to learn how to fight, this is basically an impossible barrier for a commoner.

Roland just happened to be an extreme case. A genius, who worked hard, AND had a knight teach him.

[ngng]

But you said he got connection to the king and seemed to imply that Roland used that connection to become knight even though Roland did not, I just pointed that out because you were contradictory to your own words from the previous post. The bashing part is just me joking, relax.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ngng

But you said he got connection to the king and seemed to imply that Roland used that connection to become knight even though Roland did not. The bashing part is just me joking, relax.

Yes, that was my mistake. I remembered how Roland became a knight incorrectly.

The rest of what I said still stands though.

Even if there were guns, just because you can use one doesn't mean you can become a knight.

[ngng]

@Rasen, now that misunderstanding about Roland is out of the way, yes I think I agree that becoming a knight is hard work. What I mean is that guns can actually make the chance of you becoming a knight much higher if the requirement is knowing how to use guns since technically you don't need lots of effort to know how to fire a gun comparing to using a bow, sword, or spear (skill and strength).

Assuming no translation error was pointed out, I was initially confused at how you even need to have knight title when you already have guns to give to soldiers. Knights are better at using melee weapons than soldiers, but if anyone learn how to use a gun, there is no clear advantage between knight and soldiers. I was pondering over the silliness of needing a knight title for gunners when reading that part in volume 6 chapter 4 hence my comment "anyone can become knight if they know how to use guns" since the text said "knights holding 2 guns in both underarms".

I was very surprised when no one pointed that out before when it was released more than 3 months ago or else it should have been changed. There were actually 2 mentions of gun: first when Tigre described the knights who stood near the chamberlain and second just before a knight decided to duel Olga after she declared they can go 10 vs.1. I initially thought it was not mistake since it appear twice. Waiting for our awesome translator setsuna86 to double-check.

[ngng]

Navarre Knights led by Roland numbered more than 5000 and later on there were numerous Knights joining Tigre. Knights made up 30% of Brune's army (2 Dukes had 60% combined with 10% neutral noble that Massas wanted Tigre to recruit), but they mostly protect the border. If the requirement for becoming knights were so difficult, why were there so many knights? I still support the idea that many soldiers and common people did become knights through their effort, not just because they were originally noblemen, but Roland stood out because he was the strongest. I think noblemen with lots of money won't even want their children to become knights since they have to send their children to the border or their children can just inherit the title when their father died.

What I meant is that Knight title is something that people can get more easily than you think, and having guns just made the knight title obsolete.

In summary, my point was that you don't have to be a nobleman to become a knight and being a nobleman does not necessarily grant you knighthood automatically. Anyone can become knights if they pass the knight test or achieve something noteworthy like Tigre did.

[Ramero]

Originally Posted by ngng

Rasen's small mistake: it is Brune who looked down on archers, not Zchted. Zchted valued archers highly, that was why Tigre's ransom was so high (ref: volume 1 chapter 4) and even Elen cod do nothing about it.

I agree with it but Zchted is also probably value someone based on the skill and natural talents like treating them equally even for close combat users (Sword, Spear, Axe) and Bow users. Tigre got capable of being superior commander which he always command the troops until now, from Zchted Army, Alsace Army until Simon's Army at Navarre.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ngng

@Rasen, now that misunderstanding about Roland is out of the way, yes I think I agree that becoming a knight is hard work. What I mean is that guns can actually make the chance of you becoming a knight much higher if the requirement is knowing how to use guns since technically you don't need lots of effort to know how to fire a gun comparing to using a bow, sword, or spear (skill and strength).

Assuming there were guns, and people could use them, there's still no reason to grant them the title of Knight. Being a Knight is as much about military strength as it is about prestige. And since the people with the ability to grant the title of knight are nobles, they have absolutely no reason to give it out to the rabble.

Originally Posted by ngng

Navarre Knights led by Roland numbered more than 5000 and later on there were numerous Knights joining Tigre. Knights made up 30% of Brune's army (2 Dukes had 60% combined with 10% neutral noble that Massas wanted Tigre to recruit), but they mostly protect the border. If the requirement for becoming knights were so difficult, why were there so many knights? I still support the idea that many soldiers and common people did become knights through their effort, not just because they were originally noblemen, but Roland stood out because he was the strongest. I think noblemen with lots of money won't even want their children to become knights since they have to send their children to the border or their children can just inherit the title when their father died.

Again, it's a prestige issue. More to the point, back in the medieval days, when people died for a lot of reasons, nobles (and commoners) bred like bunnies to make sure the family line was continued. But the side-effect of this is you have more children than you need. So the children who don't inherit the family property have to have something else to do, like becoming a scholar or becoming a knight.

What I meant is that Knight title is something that people can get more easily than you think, and having guns just made the knight title obsolete.

Again, that's under the assumption you have to be a knight to fight. You don't. Commoners get forced to fight all the time. And gun-technology was just plain inferior early on, so archers are better.

I don't believe I said nobles AUTOMATICALLY become knights, but rather noblemen were the ones who had the time to learn how to fight with a sword, ride a horse, use a lance on a horse, etc. By simple virtue of who has the time to learn, nobles are going to make up the vast majority of knights.

In summary, my point was that you don't have to be a nobleman to become a knight and being a nobleman does not necessarily grant you knighthood automatically. Anyone can become knights if they pass the knight test or achieve something noteworthy like Tigre did.[/QUOTE]

Look at the test Roland had to go through: he had to beat experienced knights in swordplay, in fighting on a horse, etc. Commoner's just don't usually have the time for that. Roland is a mix of crazy luck in that he was at an orphanage/church that didn't require he farm all the time, that he found a knight willing to teach him, and that he is crazy talented at fighting.

Regarding Tigre, him becoming a knight required he fought off an invading army, and then suppressed a rebelling Duke/Count. I guarantee that's more than any other knight had to go through to become a knight. AND don't forget, Tigre is a noble.

Rasen's small mistake: it is Brune who looked down on archers, not Zchted. Zchted valued archers highly, that was why Tigre's ransom was so high (ref: volume 1 chapter 4) and even Elen cod do nothing about it.

You're right again, I made a mistake in that it was Brune that looked down on archers. Zchted does value them highly. HOWEVER, Ellen's ransom had nothing to do with it. Ellen could have set it wherever she wanted, but she wanted Tigre to stay and work for her. So she set it so high it could not be paid, and gave Tigre a choice of being sold into slavery or working for her.

[Fenrisulfr]

I'm going to take a guess that the translator is a Chinese translator and confused the Japanese 槍 yari for spear with the same character in Chinese which means guns, it happens.

[ngng]

@Rasen, ok you convinced me that becoming a knight is difficult so I will accept that. But the "guns" part were just translation mistake and guns don't exist in Madan no Ou (but bullet does in the title Madan). Assuming guns exist then you don't know what kind of guns they are, are they the old rifles that the British used in the American Revolution that need reloading or an automatic rifle or pistol. I based my assumption on the best type of guns when I said Knight had no meaning if there are guns since anyone can use it. However, there are no guns in the story (again only bullet is, laugh) so our discussion about guns and whatnot is considered void I guess.

About the ransom, Elen actually sympathized with him and did not want to sell him to Muozinel. Read volume 1 chapte 4 carefully near the end during Elen and Lim conversation, you will notice Elen said she can reduce the ransom when Lim asked, but Elen did not do it because she did not want to make an exception (can damage her reputation in addition to the rumor about her falling in love with him though I bet she did not care). She did not purposely set the ransom as high as it was, it was based in the treaty with Brune and Brune did not care because Brune hated archers and she had no reason to lower it. She did not set the ransom higher on purpose to get Tigre to join her if that was what you implied. Tigre did not want to become her subordinate initially, but Zaien's march to his hometown was the reason that he was willing to give up everything even himself and his hometown to her in exchange for her help.

@Fenrisulfr, you are right. I just checked using google translation and cannot believe my eyes, Japanese use the Chinese character of gun for the Kanji for spear. Chinese character is gun, but Japanese Kanji is spear and they are both WRITTEN THE SAME WAY with DIFFERENT MEANING in both languages. Wow. A world without gun but has bullet, and a magical one that is equivalent to a "nucular" bomb to wipe out a big city on the map for the cheap price of one human life.

[RapidPotential]

Originally Posted by Fenrisulfr

I'm going to take a guess that the translator is a Chinese translator and confused the Japanese 槍 yari for spear with the same character in Chinese which means guns, it happens.

As someone who can understand Chinese, that character actually also means "spear" in Chinese. The character for "gun" shares the same character however, so it's more a case of multiple meanings with the same word causing the confusion.

[Fenrisulfr]

@RapidPotential, I thought it was once used to mean spear in the past but was somehow replaced by 矛? Well I don't know much about chn since I prefer to learn jpn xP

[ngng]

Good things there are only 2 mentions of "guns", but nobody caught it until now since the release of the English translation 3 months ago. I only caught it when reading it for the 4th time so I guessed 100% readers were like me, we are too caught up with loli Olga... ahem Tigre's awesomeness that we forgot there were discrepancies somewhere.

I don't usually like loli but Olga is so cute like a doll (minus the axe) that you want to hug her like Lunie, wait, it was Sofya's and Lim's fondness for cute things and I am contagious with the same disease now. I read somewhere in this topic where someone criticized the Vanadis' body as ridiculously unrealistic (they even beat Victoria secret's models iirc from someone's words), well it was the artist's fetish so blame him and the writer gave him the OK so blame them both but don't forget that they are 2D and aren't real so who cares?