2007-09-09, 20:40 | Link #102 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Taken here from Ep21.
Mirificus, why not draw Keroko and that other guy inside here. That way, we can be less careful with the spoiler tags (they have their uses but it is annoying to discuss with them on).
Yes, which is why you either send enough against him to stop him. You don't send a slightly inferior force and hope for it to work (they don't know everything; but they already know Zest is over-S and Signum is under-S, and both are melee types - so where's the symmetrical or assymetrical advantage that will allow Signum to win). Quote:
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See also, answer to similar question at: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=112 Quote:
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Step 2: Annihilate them with heavy anti-material bombardment. Turn the zone inside the barrier into an inferno before they can split up. Elapsed time: <1 minute. In my plans, I allocate no more than 5 minutes for wiping out the sentoukijin, with another few minutes for Zest. If my plans fail and they do get the cat-and-mouse situation, then I'd try to send my Forwards in as sacrificial pawns. But not before I try a low-casualty, low-time consumption solution. Quote:
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Being from Earth, they should know that Central Command Posts and Engineering Rooms are not placed adjacent to each other. This being said, their reaction to this "news" sucks. As I understand it, natural human instinct is to bunch up when in danger. Why are these guys almost instinctively splitting up? Quote:
Further, even if you assume Signum was capable of tactically winning, this shows the gap between the tactical and operational. Operationally, Signum didn't make it until Zest was already in Regius' room! That means a failure, since stopping Zest from entering Regius' room is kind of her whole purpose anyway. In some ways, "keeping someone" from reaching somewhere in the Maneuver Rich environment of air combat requires a greater superiority than just beating him, especially when you don't have a lot of depth in your defense. Quote:
See what I had to say about your base analogy in Ep21 thread. Quote:
The answer, of course, is that it is simple to estimate the approximate combat coefficient. We can do it from Ep17 and all we had were our eyes. We can tell that Wendi and Novu are equal or at most slightly superior to the Forwards. Ginga's coefficient we know as A. We might even know her IS from the records. Otto and Deed, Shamal and Zafira probably can make an estimate about them, but about AA-AAA at most. In fact, considering the last, they had actually the Numbers in at arguably an inferior correlation of force. They were almost sent as sacrificial pawns. Fortunately, 7Arcs decided to help them. If only 7Arcs stepped in during the combat planning phase... Quote:
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Think of a tank ambush being destroyed before it could happen by a flight of B-52s. Quote:
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Maneuver: Because each force is pinned by equal to superior enemies due to failure to exploit mass, no one can reinforce anyone else, or exploit any gaps, or even cover any new gaps. That means no maneuver. Economy of Force: Because they aren't massing anywhere, they don't have that. Simplicity: A 3-pronged plan is inherently complex. Security and Surprise: OK, they never had those. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-09 at 21:53. Reason: Append |
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2007-09-09, 22:16 | Link #103 | |
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I accidentally omitted a very important operational principle where RF6 is found wanting when I made that list: Unity of Command Surprise: I would say that RF6's main chance to gain surprise and regain the initiative was to concentrate their forces at an unexpected point using their superior speed and mobility. Jail's superior intelligence gathering gives him more time to react but by no means does it allow him to automatically redeploy his forces. Jail's left his forces in relatively static positions and given them the orders to return to the Cradle when they've "finished having fun." A lot of his forces will be difficult to redeploy or can't be redeployed at all. Moreover, he has left himself with no credible reserves. He's no longer in a very good position to take advantage of the superior intelligence gathering. Whether or not RF6 is aware of that or not is irrelevant as they should be concentrating their forces like that anyways. What it does mean is that when they do attack, if they've made provisions to concentrate their forces at a decisive point of their choosing as they should be, then they have a greater chance of achieving surprise and if they do achieve surprise, they have a correspondingly greater chance of success.
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2007-09-09, 22:25 | Link #104 | ||||||
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Spoiler for Ep24:
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2) If they knew there would be a strong AMF defense, they would know they would tire even more from violent uses of magic. Which further increases the need for force concentration so each person consumes less. In other words, she's even more guilty if she knew about the AMF stuff. Quote:
Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-09 at 23:38. Reason: On 2nd thought, Ep24 matters should have been SPOILER-tagged. Oops. |
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2007-09-09, 22:36 | Link #105 | ||
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yay, the other guy is here ready to wreck rampage... not.
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2007-09-09, 23:39 | Link #106 | ||||
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I won't comment on allot of that as I'm clearly missing some context and I'm not in the mode to go diving through threads, but I will make some general comments about what I think are some of your main points.
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I’ve seen you mumble about using teleporters and such to allow you to mass in one place at a time and still reach every location in time. Me I’d tend to assume that this wasn’t done because it wasn’t possible, not because of raging incompetence. If you can PROVE that teleporter’s COULD have done what is needed of your plan that’s another story, but I seriously doubt you can. So assuming teleporters are out, can your plan still work? The distances involved here don’t seem totally trivial to me as mages despite their flight ability are probably not that much faster then a prop plane for the most part. (since they can talk while flying and aren’t throwing off shockwaves as they move) In any case if we throw out the teleports the forwards couldn’t even get onto the Cradle so it’s not like you could use them their anyway. (Unless you intend to fly an unarmed helicopter through hordes of UCAVs and beam fire…) They also can’t really seem to fly long distances very fast so them reaching the lab in any kind of timely fashion also seems unlikely. So to me at least you’d probably be looking at just the aces and whatever was already deployed at the various sights in the battles. I also have some doubts that Zest or the borgs are just going yell “RAGHHH” and charge at 4 near or above S rank mages if so confronted so I don’t think you’re going to take him out, more likely you simply end up either fighting him at the cradle or he retreats and you have to move on at which point he comes back through unopposed. Or you end up cashing him all over the place trying to pin him down and wasting precious time. I’m not even go to grace that bullshit about a sub minute victory with a reply for someone preaching “military logic” to even propose a plan that calls for the total defeat of the enemy in under one minute is fairly comical. Quote:
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At best to me it seems like your plan probably simply results in one HUGE fairly evenly matched battles instead of 3. Quote:
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2007-09-09, 23:59 | Link #107 | |
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2007-09-10, 00:36 | Link #108 | |||||||||||
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As I already agreed, if you insist that no maneuver is possible, then this is a good static defense. But I find this proposition absurd. Quote:
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I presume Scarlietti does prefer to keep his base for at least a while longer, or else we'd have seen him packing already. His remaining forces will thus have to cover the Cradle and here, and he'd have little choice but to keep them where they were. In other words, I have regrasped the Initiative. If he does vacate from one location, the other becomes scot free and the lost time can be made up. Further, if such mobility was available to Scarlietti, he could have proactively redeployed even given the current layout. For example, he could have moved Tre and Sette to help out against Nanoha now that he has Fate in a red cage. Quote:
Again, all other things fade into insignificance in the face of the Cradle. At this point, I'm not thinking "zero civilian casualties" or any of that pretty crap. Frankly, we already lost since Ep17. As Hayate, I'm already awaiting my well-deserved court-martial. If the planet gets saved, and my battalion's alive, then that's OK... Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-10 at 07:03. |
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2007-09-10, 08:24 | Link #109 | |
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Cradle: Dieci has no way to redeploy on her own. If she leaves, then Quattro needs to leave as well which would leave the Cradle is undefended. Their mobility isn't terribly useful either as they have no real air combat capability and are very vulnerable in transit. Jail's lab: Two flight-capable numbers. Both are capable of air combat. Abandoned city: Three flight-capable numbers. However, only Deed and Otto are capable air combat. The ground numbers can't readily return to Jail's HQ. Lutecia has demonstrated no real air combat capability and is extremely vulnerable on a drone. Ground HQ: Jail has no command over Zest. Due doesn't have the mobility to redeploy and she already has an important mission. Uncommitted Reserves: None Being generous, Jail has five numbers that he can readily bring in to counter RF6's mobile elements. Six if he leaves the Cradle undefended. None of them will be able to redeploy instantly either and the objectives are pretty far apart from each other. able to redeploy instantly either. As for RF6 it just so happens that its most powerful combat elements also happen to be its most mobile. Even if Jail manages to concentrate his flying numbers together, then he's very likely to compromise his mobile forces in a single engagement as based on past performance and capabilities, RF6's mobile forces are very likely to overmatch Jail's. Lack of reserves aside, it also doesn't seem like Jail has the will to redeploy his forces either. You don't think that once Quattro noticed that only the forwards had taken the bait in the city, it wouldn't have been more effective for the flying numbers to disengage and return to Jail's lab and leave the ground numbers to conduct a fighting withdrawal? The forwards comprise only a small fraction of RF6's combat strength and would need to bring in air transport to reach Jail's lab or the Cradle and Jail's defense at the lab would be far more likely to succeed with the additional forces. Don't forget that his last orders to the numbers were to return to the Cradle after they have finished having fun.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-10 at 08:52. |
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2007-09-10, 08:53 | Link #110 | |
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By the way, the diversionary portion of this whole Ground Numbers attack must be quite high - if getting to the HQ was the real priority, Scarlietti will just have Lutecia teleport our Numbers (and a few drones to provide some AMF backup) in as close as feasible - just like the drones. |
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2007-09-10, 09:04 | Link #111 | |
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Jail has had almost perfect intelligence throughout the battle thanks to Quattro but he has stopped using it to his advantage.
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2007-09-10, 09:40 | Link #112 | ||
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1) Historical data based on Ep17 clearly suggests that 3 and 7 have a favorable correlation of forces versus Fate. Relying on this historical data proves successful in Ep21 - even if Doc hadn't butted in, the Projected Victor in a Few Minutes is perfectly clear. 2) If he moved his Numbers back, mathematically he'd have a marginally superior CoF. But he obviously has plenty enough, so the main risk at this point is that one of his Ground Numbers get slashed trying to get an attack in on Fate. Spoiler for Ep24:
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2007-09-10, 11:49 | Link #114 | |
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The point though really is that Jail has effectively relinquished command of his forces and even if he wants to influence the fight, he has no reserves. His last orders to the numbers are rather telling. That doesn't really demonstrate a whole lot of the flexibility.
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2007-09-10, 11:54 | Link #115 |
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The degree of stupid decision making on Jail's part (( choosing to tell stories rather than go for the kill, giving vague orders, balance of force )) can also be attributed to his attitude in the face of his own defeat. Besides, he's the type of person who values entertainment just as much, maybe even more than effectiveness and efficiency.
So long as he doesn't lose everything, he's already accepted the possibility of his defeat and death. Spoiler for 24:
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2007-09-10, 12:00 | Link #116 | |
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2007-09-10, 13:13 | Link #117 | ||||||||||||||||
Loveable Jerk
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Also sorry for trying to be and sound civil, would you prefer I start insulting you and flinging shit. Quote:
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I personally find the idea that teleporting is an unstoppable uncounterable tactic absurd, I’d tend to think the process could be jammed and probably fairly easily since such things MUST be a very difficult and complex to do. You see no use of teleporting and assume incompetence, I see it and assume something prevented it as an option, perhaps something emitted by the GAINT ANCIENT SUPERWEAPON WITH THE POWER TO DESTROY A PLANET. IMO you’re just biased and so eager to show how smart you are and how stupid the chars are you’ll ignore any possibility besides rampant stupidity to explain why your totally awesome plan wasn’t used. I've also noted a reduce emphasis on such things in general this season, and I think that was intentional by the writers. Large scale teleporting can easily totally ruin a military drama and kill suspense in general. “Wow they’re in some danger here, oh well I’m sure they’ll just beam out now. Yup, they’re they go, wow awesome. A sneak attack?! Oh well they can just teleport 500 guys around them in 2 minutes, yup there they are and… total curbstomp, wow epic.” Or you just end up coming up with something that can stop teleporting every other weak (see Star Trek transporters) and it gets just as stupid. Quote:
Maybe once this is over we can try and form some sort of timeline of the battle to try and get an idea how long it lasted and get a real good idea if the travel time would have mattered. Quote:
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Really the need for a little drama alone would dicate the battle last at least a little while, curbstomps are great in a militray sense, but can you HONESTLY tell me you'd enjoy watching the entire main cast gang up on and destroy 5 totally inferior targets in less then 1 minute? This is my biggest issue with all these attempts at "military logic" all of them are geared to turning this fight into a total fucking curbstomp, which IS what a military would want, but boy is fucking boring to watch animated. Quote:
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If he does vacate from one location, the other becomes scot free and the lost time can be made up. Quote:
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RF6 needed to be bigger, at least twice the size IMO, that's what 99.9% of these fights boil down too, but poltics kept it from being as big as it needed to be and they paid for it. (Hardly unheard of see Iraq 2003). Quote:
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And the only people that need court maritals are the morons in charge of the GFHQ that out of idiotic political posturing made any truly effective preparation nearly impossible. Sadly the head dumbass is already dead, though he richly deserved said death. |
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2007-09-10, 22:20 | Link #118 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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2) Ditto for Ground Force. 3) No mention of such jammers. You are just imagining them in your apologism. 4) If it does happen, then transport to the nearest possible location. Quote:
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Further, since I've placed the Cradle last, maybe I won't have to think about this problem, because frankly, by the time they are through with Scarlietti's lab, the Forwards might be spent. That's still OK if they helped reduce the Aces' load through Scarlietti's lab, leaving more for the Cradle battle. As for AMF, they didn't even know about the AMF field until they went in. Therefore, even if we assume you are right in the effects of Super AMF, what should have happened is that they try to bring them in but wind up having to hastily extricate them when the real concentration of AMF became known. Effort does not equate Result, and we get Drama if this is well executed! Quote:
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It can't be any more pompous, in any case, than the current plan, which arrogantly assumes the Aces will be able to fight through the odds nearly on their own. Quote:
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1) Improve the capability of the enemy force, so it'd still be challenging even with proper tactics. Quite frankly, the current capability gap (w/ 2 clearly superior Numbers) b/w the Numbers is really rather funny looking. Equalize that and the fight gets much better. 2) Increase the sheer numbers of the enemy. You'd get fewer points for that but you'd still at least pass. 3) Failed effort. Have one of your scenarios come to pass. Military logic is Effort, not Result. You don't need our Heroines to Suck, just our Villians to be Better. 4) Force the issue. Explicitly state as many limitations as is necessary to force them to use the tactics you want them to use. For example, explicitly have Cradle set up a 300km radius transport jamming field if you want to lock out teleportation. It is best if you had foresight and introduce such limitations over the course of a series, not just inform us right before Final Battle. 5) Blame the chosen tactics on a higher-up, who makes them execute them under threat of execution, since the entire show was h*llbent on smearing them. At least you'd win sympathy points for our heroines. Quote:
At the very least, she might have countermanded the ill-advised decision to split inside the Cradle... Vivio vs Nanoha 1on1 may make for drama but it is hardly tactical. Quote:
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Rather than debate fine points, I'd just say if they used tactics and it did wind up into a disfavorable Battle Royale, that is actually OK. You can have the swell fight AND be tactically sound. Process does not necessarily equal Results, but Process is required when the Results go Bad so our protagonists look good and so the scenes don't look contrived. This is why your argument that Bad tactics is required for swell fights is invalid; even with mediocre thinking and execution there are better possibilities. Quote:
By the way, if you are right, Hayate's still at fault because it was supposedly her who pushed for this whole Small Unit Rapid Response Unit Concept in the first place! Quote:
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2007-09-13, 13:25 | Link #119 | |
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I was reading through Command or Control? Command, Training and Tactics in the British and German Armies, 1888-1918 today. This section seemed all too familiar (directive command is another name for Aufstragtaktik).
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2007-09-13, 19:17 | Link #120 |
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That's why using friends for every one of the officer posts, especially in your first independent command, may not be such a swell idea.
If we assume that Hayate was a good commander, then the difference is that last time, she wasn't in command of friends that she may privately feel an inferiority complex (see Ep14 or thereabouts) towards. |
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