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Old 2012-08-15, 19:34   Link #10641
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
I find it extremely unfair that some people get tax breaks and other government advantages just because they signed a contract with each other. It's a seriously outdated notion and to me represents yet another way that religion has affected everyday life. If I ever get married it'll probably be because whoever I'm with wants to, not because I'll particularly push for it.
I don't think it's religious in nature. Society has traditionally depended on and expected growth of its population. It's sort of expected that marriage leads to children, but children are expensive to rear; thus, to encourage child-bearing, there's that tax incentive.

It's a perfectly valid argument to say that tax incentives should only be given to people who have children (and I include adoptive parents - including homosexual couples - in that). The rules seem a little strange as they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigress View Post
My favourite auntie who is such a sweet lady and I sometimes spend some summers with her is a role model of what not to do. She told me about the guy she was dating when they were both 21. They mutually split because they were too young to marry but she really loved him. Now she regrets it with everything because the one she went on to marry in the end left her with 2 small kids and went off with another one. Her kids are my age now but she never dated anyone again. I would never want to settle for second best like she did. ^.^
Who's to say that she wouldn't be worse off with the first guy? As the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20. The tough thing about making a commitment to be with someone for the rest of your life is that it's impossible to know how they'll change, or for that matter, how you'll change. Even if you date someone for years it's impossible to fully know what's ahead. Even if they're not actively hiding anything, they may undergo experiences that radically transform them. Did your aunt really think that she was going with "second best" when she married her ex-husband? She probably felt that she was making the best choice possible at the time, and with time it just didn't pan out.

My wife and I have both changed since we met. Alongside our personal changes and circumstance changes, our relationship has changed as well. In some ways it has changed for the better; in some ways it has changed for the worse. Looking ahead, we have a few location changes ahead of us, career developments, children, and other life-changing experiences to go through. We've done a great job of growing together and staying pretty well synchronized with one another, and we're both devoted to keeping things that way. All the same, I recognize that we have some challenges ahead of us, and we'll both need to work to ensure that the relationship continues to flourish through them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yolks View Post
I always thought the problem with "nice" guys was the passive aggressive idea that "being nice" solicited an equal return of love/romance/sex.
There are many reasons behind this, but I think the big problem with "nice guys" is that they're too passive. Many "nice guys" consider outright hitting on a girl to be "bad boy" territory. The fantasy that "nice guys" harbor is to get close to a girl, learn about her, and basically charm her. When it seems like she's into you and things are a sure bet, that's when you try to shift the relationship in a romantic direction.

You can only generalize so much, but a lot of girls don't like that. One thing that a lot of girls (and guys) claim to be appealing about guys over girls is how forthright they are. They just come out and say things; you don't have to guess hidden intentions or the true meaning behind wordplay.

It may seem aggressive to express interest and force a girl to decide whether she's interested enough to go on a date with you, but I think you can do that and still be a "nice guy."
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Old 2012-08-16, 00:15   Link #10642
Yolks
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I personally would find being born because of a tax break in a marriage as depressing. Having being accidentally born as the result of a condom breaking is one thing, but because of a tax break? ...I would feel so used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It may seem aggressive to express interest and force a girl to decide whether she's interested enough to go on a date with you, but I think you can do that and still be a "nice guy."
I can agree. Being a nice guy and being capable of expressing interest aren't mutually exclusive. It's important to be forward while still being able to view the situation from the girl's perspective. And my friends were good at doing that, being kind while still keeping their feelings afloat. A bit of bravery and luck can lead to some good.

I actually think that girls like nice guys quite a bit, it's just that the rejected "nice guys" tend to be the most vocal about their cynicism. And there is nothing wrong with being cynical about love, but there is something wrong with believing that just because you are nice that you deserve something.
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Old 2012-08-16, 01:33   Link #10643
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A "nice guy" who is nice just because he likes a girl and expects love returned isn't exactly a nice guy in my book. I had this kind of experience before... Fortunately I haven't met another one like him again.
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Old 2012-08-16, 05:16   Link #10644
Paradoxine
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Originally Posted by Pink Cow View Post
A "nice guy" who is nice just because he likes a girl and expects love returned isn't exactly a nice guy in my book. I had this kind of experience before... Fortunately I haven't met another one like him again.
On the one hand, getting pestered by a pathetic guy/girl isn't particularly great, on the other hand at least you're getting some attention. How's thing's going for you at the moment then? Single?
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:09   Link #10645
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
There are many reasons behind this, but I think the big problem with "nice guys" is that they're too passive. Many "nice guys" consider outright hitting on a girl to be "bad boy" territory. The fantasy that "nice guys" harbor is to get close to a girl, learn about her, and basically charm her. When it seems like she's into you and things are a sure bet, that's when you try to shift the relationship in a romantic direction.
Yes, though I think there is something to be said for politeness. My current view is that if you meet someone you think you have chemistry with, is to proceed as follows:
1. Invite for casual lunch, repeat as necessary to get to know them.
2. Proceed to a more intimate date if you think she's into you, and you're into her.
3. If the intimate date works out, good work, you have a girlfriend.

My problem is that I haven't really met any women I felt particularly into in the last few years.
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:14   Link #10646
Pink Cow
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Originally Posted by Paradoxine View Post
On the one hand, getting pestered by a pathetic guy/girl isn't particularly great, on the other hand at least you're getting some attention. How's thing's going for you at the moment then? Single?
Currently single and loving it. Lol. My ex was a genuine nice guy but we had to split because of some outside forces. I don't want to get to the details though. But it wasn't because we fought or anything. We broke up on good terms. He's one of my good friends now.

Attention is nice sometimes. Heck I admit I like getting attention. But I don't like being praised too much like I'm some perfect goddess or something which is what that guy I talked about in my previous post did. He was too fast, was nice just because he wanted me to like him, and when I rejected him, he proceeded to think I was some cruel monster or something.
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:29   Link #10647
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wow... the nice guys turn bad.....interesting topic in hand.....

it is true that there are many guys out there that are like that.. they are only nice to the girl who is actually their love interest and the rest is just hinderance to him. the problem is that these are actually the bad boys in "sheep's" coat. so i defend the true "nice guys' reputation.....

i despise people who are acting in a dual manner.....this is why i also have negative feeling toward my brother because i know him and when he talks on the phone with a girl and his personality is the complete opposite it is hard to me to not say anything. so this creates stress between us. anyhow i think if you want to get a love-partner then you have to be yourself, else the person you want to love you will only love a facade, not your true self.

i might be considered selfish here but sorry i might be egoistical but as a self-proclaimed nice guy i think a true nice guy acts like i do..... many of you know (i wrote it sometime) that in the past i was bullied and humiliated but even though these things happened i never lost my humanity, and this is why i was used.
i helped anyone that asked for me, as long as i could, and many times the persons bullying me were asking for my help....you think the obvious response would have been: why should i help you?" this could be the chance to retaliate.

but i never was like this i helped them even though in the end the usual things would continue.......
okay okay, i know... now you are saying you were outright stupid to help them if you knew nothing is gonna change.
But think about it why violent conflicts erupt? because they fight back, and this causes a cycle of violence......you hit me.....i hit you back......
So i was thinking that i would control my vengeful comments and actions and help them.. let me show them that i am a human after all, and i use my brain.....

these days i think this was naive but it made me learn a lot,

so back to the topic.....the real nice guys have it bad. it requires courage, determination and more courage to overcome the limitations put on by society and prejudice.

as a last request please do not judge me by these egocentric comments, i really don't want to sound that way, but as i had many times the experiences of a normal person i can almost connect to any situation and many times i start analyzing the situation starting from me....

i wrote this i think but i do not consider myself a good person, i have a lots of defects, but i am conscious of them and try my best to overcome them...
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:51   Link #10648
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Yes, though I think there is something to be said for politeness. My current view is that if you meet someone you think you have chemistry with, is to proceed as follows:
1. Invite for casual lunch, repeat as necessary to get to know them.
2. Proceed to a more intimate date if you think she's into you, and you're into her.
3. If the intimate date works out, good work, you have a girlfriend.

My problem is that I haven't really met any women I felt particularly into in the last few years.
Same here. The problem is I tend to move very slowly apparently and I'm pretty sure I've wasted a few opportunities that way. On the bright side the ones that did stick around lead me to some relatively long relations so it's not all bad.

I have however been having the same problem you have: I just haven't met anyone I'm even remotely interested recently (and by recently I mean over a year). I chalk it up to finishing up my engineering degree. Dudes... Dudes everywhere!
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Old 2012-08-16, 07:26   Link #10649
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
I have however been having the same problem you have: I just haven't met anyone I'm even remotely interested recently (and by recently I mean over a year). I chalk it up to finishing up my engineering degree. Dudes... Dudes everywhere!
ARGHHHH, don't remind me...
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Old 2012-08-16, 09:02   Link #10650
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by csuree View Post
i might be considered selfish here but sorry i might be egoistical but as a self-proclaimed nice guy i think a true nice guy acts like i do..... many of you know (i wrote it sometime) that in the past i was bullied and humiliated but even though these things happened i never lost my humanity, and this is why i was used.
i helped anyone that asked for me, as long as i could, and many times the persons bullying me were asking for my help....you think the obvious response would have been: why should i help you?" this could be the chance to retaliate.
I used to have the same views as you did. It was like trying to be a saint, with the belief that it was the right thing to do, and in the hope that others would recognize it and reciprocate. As a result, I often felt as if I were being taken advantage of. I was putting others before myself and yet it just seemed as if I were handicapping myself.

If you continue to do such a thing then there's a good chance that you'll become resentful. It seems to be human nature: everyone wants recognition and respect for what they do (as "unsaintly" as it may sound), and isn't consistently putting others before yourself among the greatest sacrifices that can be made? If you don't receive any recognition for it, won't you come to feel resentful? And if you're resentful toward others, how can you truly be kind toward them? You can't. Kindness becomes something fake rather than something from the heart; these people corrupt themselves.

The key is setting boundaries and altering your views a bit. You can still be kind and giving to others, but you need to put yourself first. Instead of dropping everything for those who request your help, ask yourself how much you can really give. Put yourself first. This isn't a matter of being selfish, but being realistic; if you don't maintain yourself (physical health, mental health, resources), you will not be able to help anyone.

You're forced to confront this reality when you're in a relationship. Assuming you become very close with your significant other, time taken away from yourself is time taken away from your other half. If you're too tired and/or stressed from helping others, that hurts your other half. (It hurts you, too, but it's always easier to see these effects when it's external to us.)

So be nice, be generous, and be caring - but always consider yourself first.

As far as being direct with girls, the difference between a "nice guy" and a "bad guy" tends to be in the presentation and intent. A "bad guy" stereotypically just wants to sleep with a girl, and isn't thinking about a true relationship. The way he asks a girl out seems less respectful (to me), but there's no true standard. A "nice guy" is more of a gentleman in his intent and courtship - but "passive" is not a part of the definition of what it is to be a gentleman.

What's wrong with being direct with a girl and asking her to a date? Absolutely nothing. My fear a few years ago was that it would make a girl uncomfortable. It pressures her to make a decision that she may not have anticipated. And because it's hard to say no to people (at least, from a "nice guy" perspective), the girl might say yes, and then stress about having to do something that she doesn't want to (another typical "nice guy" dilemma).

Forget about those concerns.

Most people have no problem saying "no" if they're really not interested. Furthermore, it's a confidence-booster to know that you're wanted by someone. Even if a girl rejects you, it's very likely that you just made her day, and perhaps even lifted her entire week. What part of any of this makes you a "bad guy"? The only time you can become close to being a "bad guy" is if you pressure the girl too much (although it's worth noting that perseverance is occasionally required in initiating a date, and can be seen as a good thing - you need to balance that perseverance against coming off as badgering).

The hardest part of asking someone out really comes back to you. You're putting yourself out there, making yourself vulnerable, and opening yourself to rejection. With the proper attitude and confidence these are not traumatic events. Being direct in this manner is not a bad thing to do.
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Old 2012-08-16, 09:34   Link #10651
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
As far as being direct with girls, the difference between a "nice guy" and a "bad guy" tends to be in the presentation and intent. A "bad guy" stereotypically just wants to sleep with a girl, and isn't thinking about a true relationship. The way he asks a girl out seems less respectful (to me), but there's no true standard. A "nice guy" is more of a gentleman in his intent and courtship - but "passive" is not a part of the definition of what it is to be a gentleman.

What's wrong with being direct with a girl and asking her to a date? Absolutely nothing. My fear a few years ago was that it would make a girl uncomfortable. It pressures her to make a decision that she may not have anticipated. And because it's hard to say no to people (at least, from a "nice guy" perspective), the girl might say yes, and then stress about having to do something that she doesn't want to (another typical "nice guy" dilemma).
If you put in terms of just asking her out for something casual, it doesn't seem nearly so bad. If you met a guy, and really hit off, you wouldn't hesitate to get his number and arrange to meet up again, likewise, if you meet a great girl you should do the same. That's not to say that you're asking her to have sex with you. It's just casual, nothing big. Maybe you(and she) will want to take things forward, maybe not. No big deal.
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Old 2012-08-16, 18:06   Link #10652
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If you put in terms of just asking her out for something casual, it doesn't seem nearly so bad. If you met a guy, and really hit off, you wouldn't hesitate to get his number and arrange to meet up again, likewise, if you meet a great girl you should do the same. That's not to say that you're asking her to have sex with you. It's just casual, nothing big. Maybe you(and she) will want to take things forward, maybe not. No big deal.
That's true, but you also need to make your intentions clear. In our society it is very unusual for a man to ask for time alone with a woman (as in sharing a meal or activity, not privacy) if there's no romantic intent behind it. Even if you're thinking to yourself that it's just about being friends, or if you're trying to fool yourself into thinking that in order to make asking easier, you'd surely be aware that it occurs to the girl that you might be asking her out.

On the flip side, a source of great frustration for many people (perhaps women as well as men) is having romantic advances interpreted as being purely platonic.

So as I say, it's better to be direct. A lot of this has to do with body language and tone, but you want to make it clear that you're expressing interest in the person either with romantic or possibly romantic intent.
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Old 2012-08-16, 18:59   Link #10653
Yolks
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Love is very much a selfish and a selfless thing. There are over seven billion people on the earth and as I've gotten older, I've realized that it's very rare for two people to mutually connect on a romantic level. You meet a lot of friends and fiends in your lifetime, but there are very few people that can meet you half-way across a bridge. Figuratively speaking. And a mistake a lot of "nice guys" and girls (the kind that complain about all guys being shallow) make, especially during the high school years is being a bit too selfless. They end up as Ledgem said, resentful for their lack of recognition. And you can blame a bit on the naivete of a young soul swept up in the arms of passion and puberty.

It's selfish to want to be loved by someone for no reason, but it is also human. There really is nothing wrong to ask a girl out to see if you guys might work out. It's nerve wracking yes, but ultimately of very little consequence to you (aside from some hurt pride) You don't need to be forceful, just curt. There isn't a complex ritual for dating or some secret. In the end you just enjoy someone else's company and they enjoy yours. A lot of people date not because they like each other, but because they want to figure out if they do.
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Old 2012-08-16, 20:31   Link #10654
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
That's true, but you also need to make your intentions clear. In our society it is very unusual for a man to ask for time alone with a woman (as in sharing a meal or activity, not privacy) if there's no romantic intent behind it. Even if you're thinking to yourself that it's just about being friends, or if you're trying to fool yourself into thinking that in order to make asking easier, you'd surely be aware that it occurs to the girl that you might be asking her out.
Well yes. On the other hand, you have to figure out if the person is relationship material. You don't need to date after you've fallen in love with one another. The whole point of dating is to figure out "Is this person the right stuff?" Starting out, you're going to be interested, but you won't know them well enough to really know if they're what you want. So the first few dates should be strictly casual.
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Old 2012-08-16, 21:49   Link #10655
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Jaysus. I don't want to be tieing the knot with anyone for at least another 5 years.
Haha, never seen that colloquialism in textual form... Anyways, yeah I am with you on that one in some respects, but I feel a little silly being the only one of my friends not pursuing anything serious. Rushing things is bad but one can certainly have a short term or long term sort of outlook on how to approach relationships... My sporadic ass attempts are all quite short term...
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Old 2012-08-16, 21:56   Link #10656
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I'm attending a wedding party this weekend and one of my coworkers got married earlier this year (he's in his mid-20s).

Seeing people my age tying the knot doesn't really put any additional pressure on me...I'm just going about things at my own pace...meaning I'm still flying solo but I'm working on fixing that...
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Old 2012-08-16, 22:01   Link #10657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yolks View Post
[...]
It's selfish to want to be loved by someone for no reason, but it is also human. There really is nothing wrong to ask a girl out to see if you guys might work out. It's nerve wracking yes, but ultimately of very little consequence to you (aside from some hurt pride) You don't need to be forceful, just curt. There isn't a complex ritual for dating or some secret. In the end you just enjoy someone else's company and they enjoy yours. A lot of people date not because they like each other, but because they want to figure out if they do.
Agreed.

It's a lot of trial and error. And it's been told to me several times that relationships work when the two parties enjoy each others company—it's all that it boils down to and nothing more complicated than that.

In this "quest" of wanting to be loved by someone over the years, I'm getting a much better idea of what I'm looking for in another woman. The attempted flings that used to confuse me as to why they failed no longer bother me anymore—I know now that there was no chance for me and that other girl to work something out. Or, there was never any chemistry to begin with.
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Old 2012-08-17, 02:15   Link #10658
csuree
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yeah, searching for happiness is the greatest quest of all.....you have to "fight" many battles to level up, and to defeat the bosses, but the drop can be fabulous....MMO terms.

as far as chemistry works out and there is the spark that can ignite even when the relationship is in an advanced state 1-2-3+ years then i would say this can go to the next level, by marrying each other,

i'm not saying you have to have a serious realationship for long years but it is a great test, of love and passion, boys and sometimes girls too tend to get bored in a relationship that is lasting more than a year, but if that feeling of excitement like at the start of it is still there and they use it to liven up the relationship....i think then they are ready to be a married couple, because this is also needed for commiment.

the ones who get bored in the relationship and get married tend to divorce or cheat one another because of the lack of excitement, and because their relationship "flattens", the feeling that was there when they started going out...

i am now looking for new girls on the internet.. i chat them up and try to arrange a meeting....so far no luck yet, but i'm optimistic. (this is just momentary as i have very little time)
so in the near future (next payday) i will go out more in town and do this in reality, and i got a piece of advice from my little brother: when i feel like i'm getting nervous about being with the girl imagine that you are with a male friend and chat casually, (P.S. for the ones who love guys it is the other way around )

anyhow, i wanna get married as the time comes but there is this little pressure from my parents: "when will you get a girl?... did you hook up with someone?.....etc." okay i understand their concern too.
and there is a little pressure from me too: i want that my granny could come to my wedding, to see my children too (i want to have a girl and a boy) as she is getting older (i hope IT won't happen in another 20 years - you understand what i meant here).

but i think i should and i will not rush into anything, my happiness is at stake if i get into something reckless and make a mistake. as my parents and granny would also want me to be happy.

huuuuh??? i just realized how serious can a marriage be.....okay.....i definitely will take my time choosing the best partner.

also i heard somewhere that love is like joy and suffering, and sacrifice.....i think it is true in one way or more.
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Old 2012-08-17, 15:36   Link #10659
Paradoxine
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Originally Posted by csuree View Post
yeah, searching for happiness is the greatest quest of all.....you have to "fight" many battles to level up, and to defeat the bosses, but the drop can be fabulous....MMO terms.

as far as chemistry works out and there is the spark that can ignite even when the relationship is in an advanced state 1-2-3+ years then i would say this can go to the next level, by marrying each other,

i'm not saying you have to have a serious realationship for long years but it is a great test, of love and passion, boys and sometimes girls too tend to get bored in a relationship that is lasting more than a year, but if that feeling of excitement like at the start of it is still there and they use it to liven up the relationship....i think then they are ready to be a married couple, because this is also needed for commiment.

the ones who get bored in the relationship and get married tend to divorce or cheat one another because of the lack of excitement, and because their relationship "flattens", the feeling that was there when they started going out...

i am now looking for new girls on the internet.. i chat them up and try to arrange a meeting....so far no luck yet, but i'm optimistic. (this is just momentary as i have very little time)
so in the near future (next payday) i will go out more in town and do this in reality, and i got a piece of advice from my little brother: when i feel like i'm getting nervous about being with the girl imagine that you are with a male friend and chat casually, (P.S. for the ones who love guys it is the other way around )

anyhow, i wanna get married as the time comes but there is this little pressure from my parents: "when will you get a girl?... did you hook up with someone?.....etc." okay i understand their concern too.
and there is a little pressure from me too: i want that my granny could come to my wedding, to see my children too (i want to have a girl and a boy) as she is getting older (i hope IT won't happen in another 20 years - you understand what i meant here).

but i think i should and i will not rush into anything, my happiness is at stake if i get into something reckless and make a mistake. as my parents and granny would also want me to be happy.

huuuuh??? i just realized how serious can a marriage be.....okay.....i definitely will take my time choosing the best partner.

also i heard somewhere that love is like joy and suffering, and sacrifice.....i think it is true in one way or more.
Ummm this has really been bothering me but why exactly do you want a partner? It seems to me that you'd pursue any girl who gave you a second glance. I just don't understand. Is getting a partner really so important to you? Why? I realise I'm being a bit flippant here but your posts here just seem...I don't know, maybe contrived is the word I'm looking for.

I realise that not everyone is like me and can or wants to live in utter solitude, but seriously I think If you and girl X spent more time enjoying each other's company before trying for a relationship, you might meet the kind of person you're looking for more easily. In other word's, it seems to me like you need to think less and be less calculating in general.

Particularly the part that irked me is that you want children(2) and yet you're not even in a relationship. I don't know, your way of life is evidently drastically different than mine.
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Old 2012-08-17, 17:55   Link #10660
csuree
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yeah i could say i think a bit differently from most other guys out there.....

and yeah i even said it myself that i think too much.. i should rely more on my instincts, but what can i say ...its not that i can dump all this knowledge in an instant. many times i wondered if i had only an IQ of 100 wouldn't i be happier.....

i do not see a problem with planning ahead a bit do you???

to why i want a partner the answer is simple: the life i am leading now is not fulfilling.... i want o experience true emotional happiness not just a fleeting imitation of it that i experienced until now. i'm not after p_ssies or any carnal desires fulfilled.... though that comes with a relationship so it is an added bonus. but as i said it my emotional life is like a wreck now...thinking back i smile and i laugh at times but those are just momentary. and as i walk out the door of the factory heading home i wish i had someone who would say some kind words to me....so cheer me up a bit, to have a decent conversation.... to not come home and sit alone in an apartment.....only looking at the walls or out the window.....

and you might be right after being a 24 year old with no relationship experience at all i might pursue any girl who gives a tiny damn about me.....you really do not feel that craving for someone to be there near you to cuddle up to someone.. and stuff that usually couples do????....

i never experienced those, so i am like someone who eats all he can but never feel full enough.

Right now at this moment i know i sound desperate... but the reality is that i AM desperate right now. my brother came home some time ago again with a girl.....and this makes me feel so miserable inside that my heart feels like it squeezes so much that it is shattering.

what can i do .... nothing.. i take to heart every little thing in my life.....

this is it....that was the answer to your question.... now .... i go to do some stargazing to take mi mind off this issue.. so i could have another fleeting moment of happiness.
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