Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Caiobrz]

Originally Posted by MarthX

The entire Minagoroshi prologue taken from the patch.

Hopefully it'll encourage more people to play the game. It's a good example how detailed it is.

Now I have one more person to love don't I ?

-- edit 1 --

but the biggest concern about it : this kind of project is big enough to announce it.
and unfortunately, nothing for a second HNNKN season has been announced so far.

But there are still changes. I know several titles who got continued monthes or years after the first season. To quote some: Crest of Stars, Honey and Clover (took a lot of time to confirm second season), Ah! My Goddess TV (10 years until they decided to animate it again). Let's not loose hope, let's beat rule S - second season lol

-- edit 2 --

Hmmm, nice reading, really nice. It makes quite clear how to beat the game though. But it still does not answer some questions like why Takano did that and where the hell is Satoshi lol.

It also makes me think that Rika's deaths are not related to the curse the same way the other deaths aren't, since Hanyu says they are not related.

Spoiler:

So, to beat rule X all you have to do is to diminish rule Z and get a miracle
To beat rule Y things pretty easy ... fake Rika's death would probably stop it
Beating rule Z can probably be achieved at the same time as you beat rule X since they are connected. If just they all get together and discuss things they would probably beath both

[imac2much]

Originally Posted by Caiobrz

Hmmm, nice reading, really nice. It makes quite clear how to beat the game though. But it still does not answer some questions like why Takano did that and where the hell is Satoshi lol.

I'm confused. Have you read the "Putting the pieces together" thread? I could be wrong, but I thought it pretty much spelled out why Takano is going to all these measures and what her ultimate goal is.

The Prologue in itself isn't supposed to show you how to "beat the game" per se, especially since when you first read it, you don't even know who the villain is. Even after playing through the entirety of Minagoroshi, I think you'd see "beating the villain" isn't as easy as it might look at first. Especially your potential solutions in spoilers... they wouldn't do anything to fix things. If you read the "Putting the pieces together" thread, you'd realize that Rules X doesn't necessarily come about because of Rule Z... several other factors exist.

[Caiobrz]

Yeah I did read twice the putting the pieces together and I also realise that more than 70% of them are still not translated.

I was not stating the solution as it's obvious I can't get it without at least the pieces, I was merelly stating what can be concluded from the prologue, which is at least a start ;0

[Freakman]

where the hell is Satoshi lol.

In the grand scale of things, this is really unimportant. As for Takano, about one fourth of Matsuribayashi is spent explaining her character. It fleshes her out a lot.

[Caiobrz]

In the grand scale of things, this is really unimportant.

I know that, the same with why/how Rika parents died, but I'm still curious =p

I realised about Takano development on Matsuribayashi from the pieces, but we are still missing too many pieces to get to understand why she killed Rika ><;

[imac2much]

I'm assuming no spoiler tags are necessary in this thread, right? Anyways...

My guess about Satoshi (with the information from the provided translations) is that perhaps Irie and co. were forced to use him as a live dissection subject. In the current translated pieces, it seems that Satoko went L5 and Takano was already making preparations to use her as a live dissection subject, but obviously this didn't come to pass. Well, why not? I'm guessing Irie managed to pull some strings or some stunts to prevent it... and it probably pissed off Takano's organization.

So the next year when Satoshi goes L5, I guess this was his chance to redeem himself, so to speak... so he became the next live dissection subject. This might be why in Minagoroshi, Rika seems to know about some kind of sad connection between Irie and Satoko. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

As for Takano, I'm guessing (like previous posters) that she has three goals: 1) make her grandfather's name known and well respected, 2) leave behind an event or catastrophe that will be on people's minds for years to come, and 3) punish those that mocked her grandfather. I'm guessing the Hinamizawa people treated him poorly or something, so she is just looking for an excuse to destroy them all. In essence, she's using the SDF to destroy the town under the facade of 'wiping the evidence' or something, because of the queen bee theory. That's why in Watanagashi/Meakashi, she isn't able to convince the SDF to go through with the gas disaster coverup; she doesn't have Rika's body to prove her recent death. By the time they learn about Rika's death, more than 13 days or whatever probably already pass, so they know that the Queen Bee theory isn't real (or at least as serious as Takano stated). It's probably still true to some extent, since we know from The Devil's Script TIP that many former Hinamizawa residents started going crazy in the years following the gas disaster.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. I'm glad we got this conversation back on track and on topic.

[Caiobrz]

I have nothing to say, both your theories on Satoshi and Takano make perfectly sense and fit all the tips and clues.

Satoko probably got saved by a vaccine. In one of the pieces I remember reading they were going to test it on her, I guess it worked. That's probably the vaccine we see Rika trying to inject on Shion and Rena (game).

And when Satoshi went L5 after killing his aunt, Takano wanted more dissection since they already had a vaccine, she was probably aiming for the oposite: something that would trigger a L5 effect (which is probably what she used on Tomitake)

So in short by 1983 all of Takano's studies were complete, all she had left to do was to summon the disaster to avenge her father. Only she probably don't want her name to go down with it so she watanagash'ed Rika after being apparently dead. People never link Rika's watanagashi to Takano, the great disaster occurs, and Takano is living happly in a far away land laughing of them, having proved her father theories AND brought revenge on the village.

If however she cannot watanagashi Rika, or find her corpse in 48h, the Queen theory won't fit, thus the government wont unleash the big disaster. In a way, she would probably be far away, except she didn't acopplish her revenge? =/

theory: even if the government though that Takano, Tomitake and Irie were dead and the research ended, I take it they would still keep an eye on Rika, so there would be nothing from preventing Takano from comming back in 1984 and watanagushing Rika to unleash the disaster. So I take it is one of the steps for a happy ending that Takano is either killed, arested or proved wrong on the queen theory.

[Sushi-Y]

Instead of trying to explain things here, I think I'll just be quiet and work on the puzzle pieces instead. It'll probably answer the questions faster that way...

[imac2much]

Hehe, you're probably right. I'm not really looking for answers in this thread per se... just throwing ideas around for people to speculate and form their own ideas from.

[Caiobrz]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

Instead of trying to explain things here, I think I'll just be quiet and work on the puzzle pieces instead. It'll probably answer the questions faster that way...

Agreed xD~

[tehtf]

hmm... but is there any symbolic meaning of Rika's watanagashi? besides the 48 hour queen bee theory, the difference between the gas incident and non-gas incident chapters are Rika being watanagashi or die in other means (suicide/totured).

Still cannot spot any clue or hint why Takano choose to watanagashied Rika instead of shooting/poison/stab etc....

[Klashikari]

probably because of the local religion.

remember about how the dam war occured : the furious people were acting panzer all the way.

in fact, the watanagashi style gives 2 undeniable advantages :
1) the police, even while carrying every possibilities, will be focusing on a mere "random culprit" speculation which is simply a fanatic.
2) the chaos which rika's death under "oyashiro-sama curse" will probably generate some crazed people, which will not only give to takano perfect scapegoat for her cover

but also, takano's disaster plan require a good excuse to eliminate hinamizawa people. and what is it? the hinamizawa syndrome, which cannot be controled anymore (the queen died), and will let loose the paranoid frenzied people. (a huge treat to the nation, which led fear amoung the country people and possibility lots of chaos around the area)

for that, she need to put the people under the paranoid killing frenzy with some measure and countermeasure (fear from oyashiro with rika watanagashi death, some artificial madness like for tomitake's ).

with this, she proves her grandfather theory, but also get the authority to suppress hinamizawa village.

in fact, the 2 factors are merged : 1) the proof of the theory 2) the excuse to kill everyone

[batpig]

Originally Posted by tehtf

hmm... but is there any symbolic meaning of Rika's watanagashi? besides the 48 hour queen bee theory, the difference between the gas incident and non-gas incident chapters are Rika being watanagashi or die in other means (suicide/totured).

Still cannot spot any clue or hint why Takano choose to watanagashied Rika instead of shooting/poison/stab etc....

Do you remember in one of the earlier TIP, which seems to be from Takano's grandfather, on what is the exact process of watanagashi, and how death from it is different from a normal death?

The innards of the victim is eaten.

Provided with the fact that Takano takes her grandfather seriously, that he had asked her to become god, that she believes the key to becoming god is through parasites, I do believe she took all the necessary steps to become god in the way he wished, or she thought he wished.

I find this the only way to make sense the differences between the scenarios where Rika gets watanagashi'd/gets killed by Shion. It wasn't what was done to her that matters - it's the result of what was done to her that counts, and that is of Takano becoming god.

Or that she believes she'd become god anyways.

It's evident that her grandfather's theory is flawed. When Rika dies without being watanagashi'd, nothing happened. The question then is what happened when Takano performs the watanagashi on Rika? Whatever she discovers, it leads to the gas disaster.

People in the know, how far off am I?

[Caiobrz]

I think we are switching cause and effect here.

I believe that Takano only Watanagashi Rika so the military will unleash the great disaster, that's all. It's the same as klashikari theory: if they know in less than 48 hours of her death, than they are afraid that the queen theory is right and have no choice to be safe and destroy the village. However, if Takano simply killed Rika in any way, it would diminish the religous factor from her death, spoiling the Oyashirosama impact, so she Watanagashi Rika for two reasons: unleash the great disaster and still keep the Oyashirosama curse alive in those who live.

If Rika dies in any other way, not only I agree with klashikari that it seams it takes too long for them to find out, but it also removes the "sacredness" of her death, voiding part of Takano's plan.

I doubt very much that Takano eats anything from Rika, she is a scientist and know better than anyone about the biology of the Hinamizawa sindrome. She knows about the parasite, the vaccine and probably on how to infect someone in purpose, so why bother with the ritual?

Takano is crazy and obcessive, but she is not dumb

[Regel]

2 Klashikari

Ok, i do agree that Rika wasn't found within 48 hours after her death in 2, 5 arks.

But:

Does watanagashed Rika make the whole village mad?

1) Yes.

And an ordinary killing doesn't. Then does the madness appear because of people's stress caused by watanagashiing?

Question:
Why the three gonsake head's (including Rika) death doesn't cause such a big stress?

2) No.

Then I don't agree that government trust everything Takano says. In my opinion they spread the gas in case of village's madness only.

[Klashikari]

1)
watanagashi "style" : this ritual is based on something consecrated to Oyashiro-sama, i believe. also, the previous deaths were aknowledged as "oyashiro-sama curse", whatever the current and true cultprit is. (it means that everything was under oyashiro-sama will : she decide who will die and who will fulfill its wrath)

In watanagashi and Meakashi, hinamizawa people will probably know who is the culprit (either shion or rika herself).
leaving them theses possibility of reasoning : a tragedy occured by some unexplained madness etc. (it is way better explained with shion : she killed every gosanke head. People will probably understand that as a "revenge" since she was in the shadows of her sister. )

But, in the other chapters, they have absolutely no clue who is it (takano is "dead", and used probably a perfect cover via the yamainu, just like she did with her fake death. the irony of it is she didn't need to make a "date matching" corpse, since the people there will be scary about some "undead" and the yamainu manipulating the information (dental inprint, etc))


so, as the time pass, hinamizawa people are kinda screwed : their sacred miko of their almighty god is now dead. the culprit is not found. with some doubt and fear (remember that hinamizawa syndrom expose pretty quickly any paranoid thought), people will explain the matter with the easiest way just like they did with the previous watanagashi incidents : OYASHIRO-SAMA CURSE !

like Caiobrz interpreted pretty well what i meant with the watanagashi, thoses who managed to survive will think it is all oyashiro-sama will, and they are punished for their fault (rika death etc). the TIPS also show that hinamizawa people are mutilating/suiciding, along with the fear to the nation (though it could be worse if the hinamizawa syndrome was revealed)



2)
if watanagashi doesn't affect anything, the watanagashi factor will simply give takano some credit about the syndrome as well.
if you were a spectator without any clue/tips just like us, only knowing the events during ONE CHAPTER with the disaster (say tatarigoroshi or tsumihoroboshi), who will you suspect with that style of killing?
a fanatic? or a mad researcher?

i'm exaggerating a lot, yes. but i demonstrate that the wantagashi has 2 benefits to takano.


at last, the government trust takano.
they approved the theory and also the plan. but the government has faith in their hidden medical facility to cure the syndrome.
why would takano say they admit the possibility of some syndrom etc in Yagouchi's Quarry (Piece #10) ?

the government seems to have had a shadow project, but they are also investigating the matter to solve it, before being forced to finish all of this shit with such brutal manner.
or, it would be not logical that they would give such medical facility along... why not just launch a nuke to hinamizawa instead?

indeed, i'm not pretending that my whole theory "takano's queen theory as an excuse / 48h problem / for grandpa love sake and god eccentrical dream" is flawless.
but i think this is the closest one so far from the truth (and it's getting even closer with the new pieces XD)

[aliensporebomb]

I still think no parasite is needed if a beloved religious "leader" is
slaughtered horribly - my example of say, the pope, being slaughtered
in such a way would create a massive and violent response to anyone
identified as perpetrator.

I still suspect that at some point perhaps the government organization
who wanted to use this as a bio-weapon maybe saw things getting
out of control when Irie was killed (maybe one of the killers reported
the killing order to their superior) and they scuttled everything as it
was obvious Takano was going tornado mentally.

[Klashikari]

irie was murdrer only at tatarigoroshi-hen if i'm not mistaken. (edited XD)


the whole "queen thing" is not needed but take part of Dr Takano researchs and theory. in fact, the point isn't important at all... except for takano, who is completely nuts and devoted to her grandfather.

also, the difference between the syndrome and a "regular riot" would be the pathogen itself : the government didn't fear the hinamizawa people (they didn't act at all while there was the dam war. but takano's group had to do some countermeasure against the project, otherwise the research would be a waste.) but it would be a huge scandal and chaos if they would let loose some crazed case like this.

in fact, as far as i could see with takano status, they are not aware about some existant grudge or whatever. (this doesn't have any sense they would give such important matter for this kind of person).

though we don't know how far she is mad, even irie and tomitake who are always with her, didn't notice her madness (they would be suspicious in some moments i guess... until tomitake discovered the truth and get killed under the L5)...
after all, takano is kinda... skilled for manipulating people (keiichi, shion and rena were like her puppets, while ooishi just activated their doubts.)

we can say takano is a insane psycho, because we were able to see her in different worlds, with her dark past.
but each character in their own world would see her simply as a occult freak, with some creepy speech. (and since she is "killed" quite early in each chapter, she is most likely out of suspicion, and she even adds more paranoia to the "future L5" victims)

in any case, the disaster plan is simply a cover to suppress any "syndrom" clue (though it was rather amateur... leaving some occult freaks on the net having pretty solid good points for some inconsistencies (the crater, the uncorroded metal, etc)
and indeed to prevent some questions about how a whole village would disappear/die.

[Regel]

ire was killed only at tatarigoroshi-hen if i'm not mistaken.

Well, he was also klled in Tsumihoroboshi-hen.
And I think, he gets killed in 1,3,4,6,7 arcs (and maybe in 2,5 arcs too).

[Klashikari]

while i say killed, i meant murdered intentionnaly in fact XD (sorry for the confusion)

but as far as i could search, there is no mention of him being dead while there is the disaster, except tatarigoroshi.
(the major issue is that we only have watanagashi and tatarigoroshi casualties list :s)

alive or dead, it seems he is just caught in the mass i guess (in the very end, he would die like anyone else. except the peculiar case of tatarigoroshi)