Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

Can anyone give me simple definition of tatsuya decomposition ._. i hope its ok to ask bit confuse how simple decomposition works

With Decomposition, he can identify the design of any Eidos or Sequence, then decompose the design. As long as it's an object, he can translate the physical object into signals, and then rewrite or erase the base design at his leisure. If it is an Information Body, then he can directly disassemble the design.

These are all done through directly interfering with the structure of an eidos

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by IceHism

With Decomposition, he can identify the design of any Eidos or Sequence, then decompose the design. As long as it's an object, he can translate the physical object into signals, and then rewrite or erase the base design at his leisure. If it is an Information Body, then he can directly disassemble the design.

These are all done through directly interfering with the structure of an eidos

wrong.

He sees the information bodies, activation sequences, magic sequences etc via Elemental Sight which is a type of sensory-type magic probably the highest level of that type of magic. With ES he can identify and target edios independently in Information Dimensions.
And since everything except psions has a corespondent information body in ID he can pretty much target anything and everything then decompose it

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

wrong.

He sees the information bodies, activation sequences, magic sequences etc via Elemental Sight which is a type of sensory-type magic probably the highest level of that type of magic. With ES he can identify and target edios independently in Information Dimensions.
And since everything except psions has a corespondent information body in ID he can pretty much target anything and everything then decompose it

I literally copied and pasted from the book and you think I'm wrong

You don't need ES to use decomposition. It just greatly helps him.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by IceHism

I literally copied and pasted from the book and you think I'm wrong

He has a tendency to overestimate Tatsuya and his abilities but he need ES, if he can' identify the target(Parade) or if the target has no form in the ID, it won't work.

I found something interesting in the last chapter.

Lab Four used Mental Interference magic with the goal of strengthening the Magic Calculation area, the area of the brain that magicians used unconsciously as the source of their individual magic.

From what I understand, the MCA is in the brain but manifests itself only when the magician wants to use a spell, it is like a thought. This is why it is impossible to find it without Miya's innate magic, it doesn't exist physically but still needs the brain to function. What is the difference between this and the psychic power that the Parasite with the Pseudo Teleportation ability used in vol 11 then?

Other questions, among all the researches subjects known, what is the one you find the most interesting ? If you had the choice, which clan would you choose ?

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

He has a tendency to overestimate Tatsuya and his abilities but he need ES, if he can' identify the target(Parade) or if the target has no form in the ID, it won't work.

The novel explained in V2c10 all magicians have a sensory ability they use to identify eidos and that Tatsuya's ES is just better version of this. Decomposition of eidos doesn't require someone who has ES. The novel explained in v2c11 ES is only necessary for decomposing information bodies like magic and activation sequences, non-systematic decomposition magic.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

What is the difference between this and the psychic power that the Parasite with the Pseudo Teleportation ability used in vol 11 then?

The only mentioned difference is tat they produce magic sequences with no activation sequence, much like Tatsuya's flash cast. Tatsuya explains in v11 its likely their power comes from a human mind. There's not much difference. The teloportation magic was something that magician could used before the parasite hijacked his body.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Guest2

The novel explained in V2c10 all magicians have a sensory ability they use to identify eidos and that Tatsuya's ES is just better version of this. Decomposition of eidos doesn't require someone who has ES. The novel explained in v2c11 ES is only necessary for decomposing information bodies like magic and activation sequences, non-systematic decomposition magic.

Precisely, contrary to the others, doesn't he use ES by default ? He identify the Eidos with ES, reads the information and confirms its form then decomposes it.

The only mentioned difference is tat they produce magic sequences with no activation sequence, much like Tatsuya's flash cast. Tatsuya explains in v11 its likely their power comes from a human mind. There's not much difference. The teloportation magic was something that magician could used before the parasite hijacked his body.

Then, shouldn't FC be considered as a sort of Pyschic Power? I am more interested to see the results of their researches now.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Precisely, contrary to the others, doesn't he use ES by default ? He identify the Eidos with ES, reads the information and confirms its form then decomposes it.




Then, shouldn't FC be considered as a sort of Pyschic Power? I am more interested to see the results of their researches now.

No, because the standard Flash Cast acts more like a CAD substitute and still has to deploy the activation sequence. That's why he specified "Tatsuya's Flash Cast" instead.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

He has a tendency to overestimate Tatsuya and his abilities but he need ES, if he can' identify the target(Parade) or if the target has no form in the ID, it won't work.

i might go a little overboard about his abilities, i admit that. But i`m not over estimating him.

Originally Posted by Guest2

The novel explained in V2c10 all magicians have a sensory ability they use to identify eidos and that Tatsuya's ES is just better version of this. Decomposition of eidos doesn't require someone who has ES. The novel explained in v2c11 ES is only necessary for decomposing information bodies like magic and activation sequences, non-systematic decomposition magic.

Spoiler for volume 2 ch 10:

All users of modern magic could access the information dimension — the information medium of the universe, the platform that linked all eidos, as defined in the Greek philosophical concept of "information" — in order to identify other eidos.

That being said, very few people could clearly identify and differentiate them.

What radically separated Tatsuya from ordinary magic users was his incredible aptitude in sensory ability, to the point that he could identify each and every eidos encompassed in the information dimension.

Normal magicians can identify the eidos as a whole. As an example in a class room the normal magician can identify the eidos in the room but they can't tell which eidos belongs to the chair and which eidos belongs to the dashboard or to the computer.This is where tatsuya ES comes in it gives him the ability to differentiate and identify every eidos individually meaning he can tell which eidos belongs to the chair, the computer etc. And that's why he needs ES for decomposition in order to individually target the eidos he wants to decompose otherwise he will just decompose everything.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

Spoiler for volume 2 ch 10:

All users of modern magic could access the information dimension — the information medium of the universe, the platform that linked all eidos, as defined in the Greek philosophical concept of "information" — in order to identify other eidos.

That being said, very few people could clearly identify and differentiate them.

What radically separated Tatsuya from ordinary magic users was his incredible aptitude in sensory ability, to the point that he could identify each and every eidos encompassed in the information dimension.

Normal magicians can identify the eidos as a whole. As an example in a class room the normal magician can identify the eidos in the room but they can't tell which eidos belongs to the chair and which eidos belongs to the dashboard or to the computer.This is where tatsuya ES comes in it gives him the ability to differentiate and identify every eidos individually meaning he can tell which eidos belongs to the chair, the computer etc. And that's why he needs ES for decomposition in order to individually target the eidos he wants to decompose otherwise he will just decompose everything.

You know that cannot be right. Its never been stated that they identify eidos as a whole. You are over-exaggerating the statement that only a few can clearly identify and differentiate them. You have read about people other than Tatsuya targeting individual objects, people, molecules, even nerves and forces, and then using magic on them. So of course they can target individual eidos, but they are unable to actually 'see' or identify the data they have targeted like Tatsuya can. In V9 they explain mages normally use vision or 1 of the other 5 senses as a shortcut to target individual eidos, but can have their magic fail if these senses are fooled and their input coordinates for where they thought the target was, are wrong.

I've also already pointed out that when Tatsuya was explaining his decomposition in V2, he only specifically mentioned his special sensory ability was required for disassembling magic and activation sequences. There is nowhere in the novel that indicates a person must have elemental sight to be able to use decomposition magic on objects.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Guest2

You know that cannot be right. Its never been stated that they identify eidos as a whole. You are over-exaggerating the statement that only a few can clearly identify and differentiate them. You have read about people other than Tatsuya targeting individual objects, people, molecules, even nerves and forces, and then using magic on them. So of course they can target individual eidos, but they are unable to actually 'see' or identify the data they have targeted like Tatsuya can. In V9 they explain mages normally use vision or 1 of the other 5 senses as a shortcut to target individual eidos, but can have their magic fail if these senses are fooled and their input coordinates for where they thought the target was, are wrong.

I've also already pointed out that when Tatsuya was explaining his decomposition in V2, he only specifically mentioned his special sensory ability was required for disassembling magic and activation sequences. There is nowhere in the novel that indicates a person must have elemental sight to be able to use decomposition magic on objects.

man that was an exact passage from the Light Novel. Look it up its not like i just left out words or something i`m just making my opinion based on that.

The word "as a whole" might be a little off for the description i was trying to say.
I`ll try another explanation, a normal magicians can identify the eidos of a car for example as a car. tatsuyas ES can identify every piece in that car individually. You are right if he wants to decompose the whole car is one thing but if he wants to decompose only a precise part of the car then he needs the ES to identify that very specific edios for decomposition.

His elemental sight is not something he can turn off and on like a switch. His ES is always working to some degree that's why it is said he always has an "eye" on miyuki because his ES always tracks miuyki's edios and the eidos around her.
To say he doesn`t need ES for decomposition, we don't know because since ES is active in some form all the time we haven`t seen him use decomposition without it.
Also ES can be expanded to the point of entering link space by using his conscious mind but that form of ES he doesn`t use for combat seems more like an information gathering tool

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Precisely, contrary to the others, doesn't he use ES by default ? He identify the Eidos with ES, reads the information and confirms its form then decomposes it.

Then, shouldn't FC be considered as a sort of Pyschic Power? I am more interested to see the results of their researches now.

yes ES is a default option for him.

Man in know what you are saying, you compare FC to Pyschic Power because the parasites use magic without using activation sequences.
The FC does use activation sequences but instead of taking them from the cad that takes time to assemble them the FC uses the activation sequence that is already constructed and stored in the magicians brain.

Even so the FC and Pyschic Power are still very similar.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Precisely, contrary to the others, doesn't he use ES by default ? He identify the Eidos with ES, reads the information and confirms its form then decomposes it.

I wouldn't say contrary to the others. All modern magicians, including Tatsuya, use their eidos sensory ability by default for their magic. Most magicians normally gather eidos coordinates subconsciously via their sight, like a vague sense of where their magic sequence must target, or a vague sense of what effect an active magic sequence would have on the eidos. Tatsuya is the same but can also actually clearly 'see' the alternate dimension and view and read the raw eidos data itself, along with activation sequences and magic sequences raw data and the interactions between them.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

His elemental sight is not something he can turn off and on like a switch. His ES is always working to some degree that's why it is said he always has an "eye" on miyuki because his ES always tracks miuyki's edios and the eidos around her.
To say he doesn`t need ES for decomposition, we don't know because since ES is active in some form all the time we haven`t seen him use decomposition without it.

I never claimed Tatsuya can use Decomposition and can turn it off. I pointed out a person does not require ES ability to pick out and lock onto precise eidos targets. Magicians beside Tatsuya have actually been seen to do so throughout the novel. But since most modern magicians must rely on their 5 senses as a shortcut, they must be able to properly visualize their target as mentioned in V9.

The novel only mentioned V2 about his special sensory ability being related to his ability to use decomposition magic on activation sequences, and not to decomposing objects.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

man that was an exact passage from the Light Novel. Look it up its not like i just left out words or something i`m just making my opinion based on that.

What you quoted was an exact passage yes, your statements after that and interpretation of it wasn't accurate.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

The word "as a whole" might be a little off for the description i was trying to say.
I`ll try another explanation, a normal magicians can identify the eidos of a car for example as a car. tatsuyas ES can identify every piece in that car individually. You are right if he wants to decompose the whole car is one thing but if he wants to decompose only a precise part of the car then he needs the ES to identify that very specific edios for decomposition.

This is also incorrect since we've seem magicians other than Tatsuya target precise parts of objects as well, the important thing is that they must be able to see or sense their target. There is nothing in the novel that indicates ES is required for other magicians when doing precise targeting. If other magicians wanted to do long distance targeting, without using a sensory type magic or a spirit medium, when their sight is blocked or their equipment is not enough for them simply use their vision, then yes, that person would need an ES skill like Tatsuya's.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

man that was an exact passage from the Light Novel. Look it up its not like i just left out words or something i`m just making my opinion based on that.

The word "as a whole" might be a little off for the description i was trying to say.
I`ll try another explanation, a normal magicians can identify the eidos of a car for example as a car. tatsuyas ES can identify every piece in that car individually. You are right if he wants to decompose the whole car is one thing but if he wants to decompose only a precise part of the car then he needs the ES to identify that very specific edios for decomposition.

His elemental sight is not something he can turn off and on like a switch. His ES is always working to some degree that's why it is said he always has an "eye" on miyuki because his ES always tracks miuyki's edios and the eidos around her.
To say he doesn`t need ES for decomposition, we don't know because since ES is active in some form all the time we haven`t seen him use decomposition without it.
Also ES can be expanded to the point of entering link space by using his conscious mind but that form of ES he doesn`t use for combat seems more like an information gathering tool


yes ES is a default option for him.
[...]

All your quoted section means is that Tatsuya's sensory abilities are so strong that he doesn't need his standard senses to help reinforce which Eidos is which.

It's essentially the excuse for why he can still track an Eidos that left his field of vision.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Rava

All your quoted section means is that Tatsuya's sensory abilities are so strong that he doesn't need his standard senses to help reinforce which Eidos is which.

It's essentially the excuse for why he can still track an Eidos that left his field of vision.

He can track the eidos because he can remember that edios down to its structural components and make is easy for him to distinguish that edios from the rest.

Lets say a human eidos is like a dna molecule. Any magician can identify and see that Dna molecule, but to a normal magician it will look as a double helix molecule no matter to which human the edios belongs to. Exmaple a normal magician if he will look at miyuki, erika, mayumi, leo, mizuki,mikihiko eidos he will see a dna molecule but wont be able to tell which edios belongs to which person.
Now in case of tatsuya his sensory ability allows him to see past the double helix molecule and see right down into its structure seeing all the information contained in that molecule and that's why he can tell which eidos belongs to which person and that's why he can track a specific edios because he can differentiate the edios he wants to track from the rest.
This sensory ability that allows him to see past the eidos and directly into the eidos structural information its what Elemental Sight is. Am I wrong?

[Echizen777]

Eleemental Sightis a sensory magic. So he uses his senses.

Originally Posted by Guest2

I wouldn't say contrary to the others. All modern magicians, including Tatsuya, use their eidos sensory ability by default for their magic. Most magicians normally gather eidos coordinates subconsciously via their sight, like a vague sense of where their magic sequence must target, or a vague sense of what effect an active magic sequence would have on the eidos. Tatsuya is the same but can also actually clearly 'see' the alternate dimension and view and read the raw eidos data itself, along with activation sequences and magic sequences raw data and the interactions between them.

OK, not contrary but differently, it is known that he uses his ES unconsciously, it's just not as efficient as when he enters in Link Space. So, Tatsuya's default vision is better than the others.

This is also incorrect since we've seem magicians other than Tatsuya target precise parts of objects as well, the important thing is that they must be able to see or sense their target. There is nothing in the novel that indicates ES is required for other magicians when doing precise targeting. If other magicians wanted to do long distance targeting, without using a sensory type magic or a spirit medium, when their sight is blocked or their equipment is not enough for them simply use their vision, then yes, that person would need an ES skill like Tatsuya's.

True.

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

His elemental sight is not something he can turn off and on like a switch. His ES is always working to some degree that's why it is said he always has an "eye" on miyuki because his ES always tracks miuyki's edios and the eidos around her.
To say he doesn`t need ES for decomposition, we don't know because since ES is active in some form all the time we haven`t seen him use decomposition without it.
Also ES can be expanded to the point of entering link space by using his conscious mind but that form of ES he doesn`t use for combat seems more like an information gathering tool

Just a minor correction. His eye is only focused on Miyuki when he wants to use it consciously, he has the ability to track her wherever she is but he doesn't do this at school. He is not keeping his eye on her everytime at school, he would be detected otherwise. LS makes him able to gather information but it is also useful in a fight, he was forced to use it briefly to sense attacks in Monolith Code.

[SoboSobo]

This is also incorrect since we've seem magicians other than Tatsuya target precise parts of objects as well, the important thing is that they must be able to see or sense their target. There is nothing in the novel that indicates ES is required for other magicians when doing precise targeting. If other magicians wanted to do long distance targeting, without using a sensory type magic or a spirit medium, when their sight is blocked or their equipment is not enough for them simply use their vision, then yes, that person would need an ES skill like Tatsuya's.

i agree with echizen777 here.

ALL magicians can target the eidos but hey need some sort of visual confirmation.I mean mayumi for example her targeting is precise as we seen in 9sc arc but she won't be able to target lets say a target that he/she has hidden behind an obstacle and the target eidos has been mixed up with a lot more edioses because all through she can identify the eidos around her but can`t tell which eidos is which, she needs visual confirmation to precisely see which eidos is which.
Now in case of tatsuya's ES even through he uses his visual sense to gather information about the edios around him he doesn`t need visual confirmation of which edios belongs to. using visual confirmation just makes things more easy for him.
i hope you guys can understand , it made a lot more sense in my head lol

Also is also stated in the novel that tatsuya is not the only magician who can independently identify information bodies. It was said that only a small percent of the magicians have the sensory ability to further distinguish an information body from another.
With tatsuyas ES being the most powerful sensory type ability we have seen so far, could be other magician with even better sensory abilities then him or ES could be the best it can be, we don`t know that without more information.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

He can track the eidos because he can remember that edios down to its structural components and make is easy for him to distinguish that edios from the rest.

Lets say a human eidos is like a dna molecule. Any magician can identify and see that Dna molecule, but to a normal magician it will look as a double helix molecule no matter to which human the edios belongs to. Exmaple a normal magician if he will look at miyuki, erika, mayumi, leo, mizuki,mikihiko eidos he will see a dna molecule but wont be able to tell which edios belongs to which person.
Now in case of tatsuya his sensory ability allows him to see past the double helix molecule and see right down into its structure seeing all the information contained in that molecule and that's why he can tell which eidos belongs to which person and that's why he can track a specific edios because he can differentiate the edios he wants to track from the rest.
This sensory ability that allows him to see past the eidos and directly into the eidos structural information its what Elemental Sight is. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. This is because you're mixing things together.

A normal Magician sees the Eidos and uses his/her normal senses to help distinguish which Eidos belongs to which object. That means if you escape the Magician's normal senses, that Magician has problems tracking your Eidos.

Example: In the Hattori duel, Tatsuya vanishing from Hattori's line of sight made it impossible for Hattori to complete his spell to affect Tatsuya's Eidos, because Hattori couldn't use his senses to confirm where Tatsuya was.

Tatsuya's sensory abilities, on the other hand, are strong enough that in the same area as a normal Magician, he doesn't need his normal senses to reinforce what each Eidos belongs to. That means in order to affect Tatsuya's senses, you have to be able to manipulate the information from the information dimension instead. Yakumo blatantly hints at this in Volume 3 when Haruka pays them a visit.

So if Tatsuya was the one in the duel being affected by that situation, not being able to see Hattori wouldn't be an issue, because he can still sense where he is via the Information Dimension. Witness Tatsuya's reaction to Haruka trying to sneak up on him, Miyuki and Yakumo. Despite the fact that Haruka's a BS Magician who clearly specializes in Stealth magic, Tatsuya's sensory abilities still picked her up easily -- he was only unable to identify who he noticed, which is most likely due to the Stealth magic in effect.

So essentially, in the normal sensory range of a Magician, Tatsuya doesn't need to use his senses.

Outside the sensory range of a standard Magician, Tatsuya can still track an Eidos, but he needs something to assist him with identifying it, just like a normal Magician would for something that would be in a normal range for them.

This is a big part of what makes his Elemental Sight a superpower, because it gives him the theoretical unlimited range that normal Magicians can't have.

The other major part that Elemental sight covers is that it lets him see and process the details of Activation and Magic Sequences. That's what lets him decompose specific parts of Evil Eye to make it harmless.

But Activation Sequences and Magic Sequences ARE NOT EIDOS. That's what you're mixing up. You're applying a "Well he can do X because of this, so it should be the cause of Y also" kind of leap of faith conclusion with no actual evidence to back it up. That is why your conclusion on what it is and how it works sounds more like Fanfiction than what's been detailed so far.

[Marcus H.]

There is some simpler way to explain the mechanics of magic in Mahouka... right?

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by SoboSobo

i agree with echizen777 here.

I mean mayumi for example her targeting is precise as we seen in 9sc arc but she won't be able to target lets say a target that he/she has hidden behind an obstacle and the target eidos has been mixed up with a lot more edioses because all through she can identify the eidos around her but can`t tell which eidos is which, she needs visual confirmation to precisely see which eidos is which.
Now in case of tatsuya's ES even through he uses his visual sense to gather information about the edios around him he doesn`t need visual confirmation of which edios belongs to. using visual confirmation just makes things more easy for him.
i hope you guys can understand , it made a lot more sense in my head lol

Also is also stated in the novel that tatsuya is not the only magician who can independently identify information bodies. It was said that only a small percent of the magicians have the sensory ability to further distinguish an information body from another.
With tatsuyas ES being the most powerful sensory type ability we have seen so far, could be other magician with even better sensory abilities then him or ES could be the best it can be, we don`t know that without more information.

There is no real power for ES magic, he gathers informations because he is able to see them in the ID. And Mayumi can targets opponents hidden beyond obstacles, her Multi Scope only works in the physical realm so she can't predict or sense incoming attacks. Her bullets can hit opponents from impossible angles and she can hit them whatever their position thanks to Multi-Scope and Hale Particles, permitting her to transforms air into munitions.

Mayumi and Tatsuya are the best snipers, but Mayumi is better than him in this category.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

There is some simpler way to explain the mechanics of magic in Mahouka... right?

Well, I wasn't trying to explain it to someone who I had to assume hasn't gone through all the books yet.

In a nutshell, magic in the series technically has infinite range, but because Magicians are human, human perception causes things that are "too far away" to be sensed to also be "too far away" to use magic on.

There are a couple of things that can bypass this perception issue, and Tatsuya's Elemental Sight is one of them. His Elemental Sight is also what enables him to analyze "Modern Magic" as it's being used, which opens up counterspell options for him that Magicians normally don't have access to (because the magic's information coming out too quickly in too large of a volume to analyze for most Magicians).

Is that better?

[Marcus H.]

There are a lot more things like Eidos and Idea and terms in general that are better replaced for simpler terms.