[Manga] Naruto Chapter 645 Discussion Thread

[mystogan]

Tobi,Minato and Sasuke thinking highly of naruto when he fired up the kyuubi chakra, but just the next moment everyone's comment changes, but by the end of the chapter it was again the same, i think this was pretty good.
Sasuke getting jealous,reminds me of the time they fought on the rooftop of the hospital when they were young, i hope this adds to the final Naruto vs Sasuke to be more intense.

and infinite tsukyomi is about to start, this gives sasuke a chance to get the spotlight,
but still we never know what the second hokage would do, he might just come up and say i know how to break through I T, thank god he does not posses a sharingan or else after casting I T, he might say to obito "you are just copying my technique"..

[Monster0]

Ugh,i hate illusion worlds. Everybody has to find themselves or face fake love from imaginary versions of Rin. Now this is well be boring.

[jmacintosh]

Question, would anyone like to take a guess as to the significance of the meeting of the five tailed beasts when Naruto was given their names? Didn't they share a small amount of chakra? Wouldn't that also mean there is a small amount of Naruto's chakra waiting like a time bomb inside Obito? Just wondering if this may become a relevant factor since this guy seems indestructable.

[Tchadnis]

Originally Posted by jmacintosh

Question, would anyone like to take a guess as to the significance of the meeting of the five tailed beasts when Naruto was given their names? Didn't they share a small amount of chakra? Wouldn't that also mean there is a small amount of Naruto's chakra waiting like a time bomb inside Obito? Just wondering if this may become a relevant factor since this guy seems indestructable.

noooooo they gave Naruto a bit of their chakra at best , what can happen is for Naruto to get a miniature 10 tails or something like a 10 tails demon FOx ? Kurama already god dam strong with half his chakra so who know...

[Casshern]

Oh, 3rd impact is about to start!

[sayde]

Genjutsu shouldn't work on Naruto, Minato, and Bee though unless infinite tsukyomi ends up being the only technique that can also trap a bijuu under genjutsu from within the host.

And since the alliance has also obtained a bit of kurama's chakra, I wonder if Kishi will allow Kurama to temporarily protect the alliance from infinite tsukyomi by revealing Kurama to be capable of manipulating the chakra he's shared. That way he can prevent the genjutsu from taking control of everyones chakra flow for as long as his chakra holds out.

[james0246]

^I could see Kurama's cloak being useful to helping the Alliance escape the genjutsu, but I seriously doubt that the IT will be broken by Kurama and I hope Naruto doesn't help either.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I could see Kurama's cloak being useful to helping the Alliance escape the genjutsu, but I seriously doubt that the IT will be broken by Kurama and I hope Naruto doesn't help either.

Kishimoto even had Naruto intervene in Gaara's earlier battle against the mid-boss opponents like Mu and the second Mizukage. I expected Gaara and Onoki to be able to have finished the battle on their own being Kage's and all, but apparently not. With that said, I don't think there is any way of Naruto not helping in breaking IT. I'm quite certain the author is intent on Naruto getting at least most of that glory/credit in some way, shape, or form, considering how things have transpired in this so called "war" thus far.

[Ulquiorra]

Just a thought. Would the Edo Zombies even be effected by Tsukyomi? Genjutsu is said to disrupt the chakra flow to the brain and effect the five senses. Well, when your are dead, you shouldn't have to worry about the brain effecting your senses. Since you don't have any living organs and you also happen to possess infinite chakra. You can't really cut the flow off.

On the other hand, it does look like the Kyuubi half inside Minato was effected by the genjutsu. Or at least seemed to stop when Obito activated it. So would Dark Kurama be effected by a genjutsu, but not Minato? That seems unlikely.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Just a thought. Would the Edo Zombies even be effected by Tsukyomi? Genjutsu is said to disrupt the chakra flow to the brain and effect the five senses.

I imagine it as an extremely powerful version of tsukiyomi: it freezes time if you are looking from inside of it into the real world. Which means time does not pass in the real world. That should be like that because otherwise your real body would die in the real world while you are inside the genjutsu. In the Matrix movie the real body is inside a pod where it receives water and food and also its a safe place from weather and animals. But in the Narutoverse people's bodies collapse and then die from various reasons if time passed normally. But if time freezes in the real world, or one could say if inside the infinite tsukiyomi time flows infinitely faster, then there's no problem with the real bodies.

This also means that:

- if edo tensei hokages are not affected by it then they wouldn't even notice that all the others were trapped there for a long time, because in the real world time that would be an instant, they would not be able to help the alliance inside the tsukiyomi

- tsukiyomi cannot be disrupted, not even by a bijuu, because it's instantaneous, which means that disrupting it by pushing large amount of chakra into the affected guy cannot be done becuase time froze, and also there's nobody to do that because everybody was caught in it at exactly the same time

- if Sasuke happens to save the world from IT then only those who were inside of it and did see what Sasuke did inside will know who defeated it. It would be funny if nobody realized that they were all saved by Sasuke, poor Sasuke would surely get angry that his only big accomplishment in this war (so far) won't be appreciated as Naruto's were

[james0246]

^Why do you think it freezes time in the real world? More likely its similar to the third impact joke from the last page and everyone's minds/souls are taken from their bodies and placed in some weird "perfect" world slash other dimension (kind of like the Tsukuyomi we already know).Whatever the case, I seriously doubt rhat time freezes or that the regular bodies are somehow protected in any way (Unless the bodies are somehow taken with, which is just stupid enough to happen).

[itachi-san314]

I also doubt it freezes time. tsukiyomi did lengthen the amount of time passed in the dream world compared to reality so that is likely to happen, but freezing time is a different story. it raises too many questions. but i could certainly see people living out an entire lifetime, being released, and then it turns out IT was only cast on them for a minute or something small like that in reality. i think we should expect whatever happens to not make sense though, so let's all just prepare ourselves right now for something stupid lol ...then we can be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be clever and interesting

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Well then this chapter is the best for you, he's the best with genjutsu among the good guys. He was able to break out of Itachi's tsukiyomi, even if it's arguable if Itachi let him break it or it was because his illness.

Then what about Hashirama? He has Always won against Madara and i strongly doubt he never uses genjutsu. Even Tobirama used genjutsu against Hiruzen which he never dispelled. (The all black vision genjutsu)
Perhaps the special eyes in the Uchiha make the Senju (body) very good against genjutsu. A talent to dispell it. Who knows?

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i think ultimately naruto is intended to end up not relying so heavily on kurama for power (if for no other reason than a mere comparison to rikudo sennin. the so6 defeated the juubi as a nonjinchuriki. naruto is gonna have to step his sage mode game up and he likely will.)
but there are random comments throughout the manga that make me think this as well:
1. naruto telling kurama (when he won the tug o war) that he planned to free him
2. kurama forcing naruto to use his "true self" when freeing Son Goku back before the unmasking on obito
3. hashiramas recent "im the shit" moment when he comments on narutos volume of chakra on to realize its actually kurama's. this plus all of nidaimes recent comparisons lead me to believe that naruto will eventually be at his current power level without the help of the bijou...
4. the flashback with the so6 and the chibi bijou, when they are told that one day they will be whole again. this "whole" my not necessarily be the original juubi but perhaps the earth, or the universe in general or something along those lines.

no matter what happens with naruto tho, IMO sasuke will need at least two powerups to be competitive...the rinnegan and whatever comes after that/something else

Instead of Naruto's powerups.. i just wonder how strong Naruto actually is.
With Naruto's strenght i mean without the influence of the kyuubi and sage mode.
His own speed, his jutsu's and his own chakra.

I wonder this because right after Naruto defeated Pain he seemed to have been faster and stronger when he fought the Cloud duo who were looking for justice after Killerbee-sensei got kidnapped. But still he struggled while i doubt they would stand a chance if Naruto had gotten into Sage Mode.

Originally Posted by sayde

Genjutsu shouldn't work on Naruto, Minato, and Bee though unless infinite tsukyomi ends up being the only technique that can also trap a bijuu under genjutsu from within the host.

And since the alliance has also obtained a bit of kurama's chakra, I wonder if Kishi will allow Kurama to temporarily protect the alliance from infinite tsukyomi by revealing Kurama to be capable of manipulating the chakra he's shared. That way he can prevent the genjutsu from taking control of everyones chakra flow for as long as his chakra holds out.

True, Naruto who is normally very weak against genjutsu should now be immume to genjutsu because of the Kyuubi but what happens as soon as the Kyuubi falls under genjutsu? Because he was already tamed several times by the Sharingan.
Madara did, Obito did and even Sasuke managed to keep him away in Naruto's mind.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

True, Naruto who is normally very weak against genjutsu should now be immume to genjutsu because of the Kyuubi but what happens as soon as the Kyuubi falls under genjutsu? Because he was already tamed several times by the Sharingan.
Madara did, Obito did and even Sasuke managed to keep him away in Naruto's mind.

About the only thing I can say to this is have we seen an instance yet where both a bijuu and its non edo tensei'd host have gotten caught with genjutsu at the same time? Because perhaps that can be the loophole.

In other words, maybe its not possible for Obito to target a bijuu and its host simultaneously with one genjutsu. He might have to target one at a time--which could leave brief moments in between castings for the non-targeted subject to dispel the genjutsu from the targeted subject. So if Kurama falls under genjutsu, Naruto can dispel it from him (now that he has a direct line to his chakra regardless of Kurama's will). And if Naruto falls prey to it, then vice-versa--thereby making genjutsu tactics a moot strategy.

Make sense? I admit, I'm coming up with this on the fly. It's neither pretty nor likely to happen.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

the third impact

Is that the final event in NGE? Or it's another story?

Originally Posted by james0246

Whatever the case, I seriously doubt rhat time freezes or that the regular bodies are somehow protected in any way (Unless the bodies are somehow taken with, which is just stupid enough to happen).

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I also doubt it freezes time. tsukiyomi did lengthen the amount of time passed in the dream world compared to reality so that is likely to happen, but freezing time is a different story. it raises too many questions. but i could certainly see people living out an entire lifetime, being released, and then it turns out IT was only cast on them for a minute or something small like that in reality. i think we should expect whatever happens to not make sense though, so let's all just prepare ourselves right now for something stupid lol ...then we can be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be clever and interesting

It seems my english is not the best, so i'll try to write more accurately what i meant. I do assume it's a genjutsu, so it does not affect the real world in any way. By saying it "freezes time" i meant that if you are caught inside of it and for example you have EMS and can see the real world behind the genjutsu what you will see is a frozen world, time for those who are inside of it will flow almost infinitely faster than how it flows in the real world. An effect similar to what Einstein describes in his relativity theory, where clocks in different spaces flow with different speeds. If you take the laws of relativity to the extremes, as in the name of the jutsu you have "infinite" then what you get is an effect like the event horizon of a black hole, where the difference in how fast time flows relatively to the other space becomes almost infinite.

My problem with your example of 1 minute passing in the real world is that in that time your real body might be killed or hurt badly in which case you would either die or are dragged out from the world of I.T.

In my understanding you either have to make I.T. instantaneous so that the real world does not have any effect on the dream world or it is not a genjutsu but a ninjutsu that completely changes the real world itself into the dream world.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Then what about Hashirama? He has Always won against Madara and i strongly doubt he never uses genjutsu.

If Ulquiorra is right (i answered to his post) then Hashirama wouldn't be affected by it. Which means he can't help the alliance if he is not inside of it, assuming that IT is instantaneous just as we saw when Itachi used it on Kakashi. Of course we don't know if he is right, but if we want the plot to focus more on Sasuke, let Sasuke have his great moment, then the best is to somehow remove the hokages from the picture. Kishimoto likes to use such tricks, so i think there's a good chance that Ulquiorra is right. Of course Kishimoto can achieve the same thing if he simply tells us that Tobito can choose who will be hit by it and who won't, so he could just leave out Hashirama and Madara because they would cause trouble. But if Tobito underestimates Sasuke (which would be kinda stupid since Zetsu watched how Sasuke broke out of Itachi's tsukiyomi, and Zetsu is Tobito's cameraman) he will bring Sasuke into the IT. It also might be that Tobito feels bad about killing Sasuke's clan and family and he feels its his obligation to give them back to Sasuke inside the IT. So he does the risky thing and brings in Sasuke. And how convenient it is that Sasuke is now linked to Naruto trough chakra and Naruto to the entire alliance, Sasuke can make them all break out of IT.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

My problem with your example of 1 minute passing in the real world is that in that time your real body might be killed or hurt badly in which case you would either die or are dragged out from the world of I.T.

but who cares if some ninjas die? lots of ninja are dead already and they won't be part of IT. so if someone dies in IT, then they can just be removed from the equation as well. nobody would notice since it's all individual dream worlds apparently. also, i don't see how the duration is relevant. the same could be said about a nano-second or a year

the main reason 'instantaneous' doesn't work for me is that thought requires some amount of time. sure we can all dream a very elaborate illusion and wake up seconds later, and i'm fine with these ninjas' abilities to extend that notion with the likes of tsukiyomi. but instantaneous means to me that there is no time for anyone to think and be manipulated by a genjutsu or whatever IT is. not even a nano-second. of course, IT may turn out to be as you say, but i won't like it

[Hunter]

Edo Tensei aren't immune to anything. Edo Itachi was affected by Genjutsu and Hanzo was paralyzed when he breathed his own poison.
They retain all the weaknesses they had alive but for the fact that they never run out of chakra and can regenerate from all wounds.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but who cares if some ninjas die?

That doesn't sound like an ideal dream world. A poisonous snake bites Tobito's real body and he dies?

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

the main reason 'instantaneous' doesn't work for me is that thought requires some amount of time. sure we can all dream a very elaborate illusion and wake up seconds later, and i'm fine with these ninjas' abilities to extend that notion with the likes of tsukiyomi. but instantaneous means to me that there is no time for anyone to think and be manipulated by a genjutsu or whatever IT is. not even a nano-second. of course, IT may turn out to be as you say, but i won't like it

Well Itachi did it, imagine that IT is a far stronger tsukiyomi where everything is better. It's near instantaneous, not exactly 0 time but near 0, if that bothers you
Why is it more difficult to accept that extreme manipulation of time inside a genjutsu can happen if other things like teleportation and creation of special dimensions (Tobi's inner world) and even manipulation of one's personal reality (Izanagi,izanami) can happen. Orochimaru can even be a consciousness that is spread accross different bodies, he was recovered from Anko's body. The tsukiyomi world is not connected to the real world, so it's not like your brain in the real world has to speed up it's neurons to infinite speed. If that was true even Itachi's version of tsukiyomi would have burned down his and Kakashi's brains

Originally Posted by Hunter

Edo Tensei aren't immune to anything. Edo Itachi was affected by Genjutsu and Hanzo was paralyzed when he breathed his own poison.
They retain all the weaknesses they had alive but for the fact that they never run out of chakra and can regenerate from all wounds.

LOL we completely forgot those

[Monster0]

They way Madara explains it to Obito, according to translation,is that tsukiyomi pulls you into a dimension,similar to Obitos.So you don't exist in two places at once,you enter a dimension like were kakashi is stuck now. No fear of snake bites or worse some perv fondling. By dream world they mean ideal world.The things within this dimension well take physical form not like holograms but actual solids made from chakra.To just stand,sit or lay there in reality and live in the mind matrix is not what it's like.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That doesn't sound like an ideal dream world. A poisonous snake bites Tobito's real body and he dies?

so are you suggesting that IT makes everyone immortal? like i said, anything is possible, but these ideas keep getting worse as far as i'm concerned. just my opinion of course

Well Itachi did it

he stopped time? when he had sasuke in the tsukiyomi, zetsu was watching their bodies stand motionless right? and for kakashi, iirc he just made (let's say 1 second) feel like weeks of torture for him

imagine that IT is a far stronger tsukiyomi where everything is better. It's near instantaneous, not exactly 0 time but near 0, if that bothers you

it does, thanks =)

Why is it more difficult to accept that extreme manipulation of time inside a genjutsu can happen if other things like teleportation and creation of special dimensions (Tobi's inner world) and even manipulation of one's personal reality (Izanagi,izanami) can happen. Orochimaru can even be a consciousness that is spread accross different bodies, he was recovered from Anko's body.

well, to be fair, i don't really like any of those examples either. but like i said earlier, what you're proposing is entirely possible, i just don't like the idea of it. which almost ensures that it will happen since the manga has been getting worse and worse lately for me personally. the idea of obito's heart and left arm existing in one dimension and the rest of his body in another is confusingly awful to me. same with izanagi/izanami. i wish they never existed. and orochimaru's multiple consciousnesses is sloppy at best. i'm kind of indifferent toward teleportation, but i could do without it. to me, all those types of techniques take away from the fun and creativity of the way the techniques used to be. i'm in favor of never having the god-like abilities and sticking to just chakra-based techs, illusions and straight up taijutsu, but that's just me in other words, i like when the characters felt like actual (although mystical for certain) ninjas as opposed to gods

Originally Posted by Monster0

They way Madara explains it to Obito, according to translation,is that tsukiyomi pulls you into a dimension,similar to Obitos.So you don't exist in two places at once,you enter a dimension like were kakashi is stuck now.

yea, it's probably this, which for me is a worst case scenario.