Chapter 210 [Manga] Discussion

[hi no ken Jebus]

I don't quite understand some of you. A few weeks back some were crying bloody murder when the arankaru had the upper hand with stuff like "oh noes kubo made them too powerful and they will have to go dbz with power ups and etc..."
Now the coin is flipped and now it's "oh noes these guys are waaaay too powerful". Now if you didn't see this coming after Shawlong brought up the Espadas I don't know what to tell you.

That bit of information was the last nail in their coffin and the end of the arankaru explanations/showcasing. If this had been Grimmjow who just got his ass handed to him then I can say some of the complaints are justified. However Shawlong mentioned they are low tier and nothing compared to the Espadas. So how about we just wait and see what the 6th strongest espada can do before we light the torches and get our pitchforks?

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by ShikaShika

I don't care, they might as well have skipped these fights if it was just going to be a meaningless display off shinigami power. From a storyline point of view you need to create some tension by making the bad guys look intimidating. Even if these guys were relatively low level, it still makes Aizen & Co look stupid. If only Grimjaw (I know it's not the official spelling) would take on all the remaining shinigami and win, then I might be a bit excited again.

So...as someone else said, should all of Ichigo's fights in Soul Society (vs Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi and Byakuya) have been skipped too, since they were "meaingless" displays of Ichigo's power? He is the main character after all and thus, under the unwritten rule of shounen anime, he must be the strongest character.

And you said it yourself, if they were low level...if they were low level, why would it make Aizen & Co. look stupid? They were low level, and if you recall, Aizen had nothing to do with them coming to the real world. They followed the orders of Grimjaw to come to the human world and cause chaos. True, Aizen created them using the power of the Hougyoku. Well then, why not mention the Grand Fisher? He was an Arrancar, albeit a terribly incomplete one, and was beaten by Isshin and an unreleased Zanpakutou. By your standards, the series should've ended there, if not earlier.

I just feel that these fights were all meaningless... Why do we need to be introduced to such cannonfodder at all, what did they really add to the storyline? I feel like I've just been reading filler. Bleh.

Why yes, of course. ALL the fights were meaningless. The fact that we were shown Rukia's Shikai was meaningless. Ikkaku's Bankai, Ururu's hidden strength and potentially the meaning of the petals that accompany Hitsugaya's Bankai. We also learn how Arrancars release their Zanpakutous, and the hierarchy of the Arrancars (11+ are in the order they were created, 1-10 are called Espadas and have the highest destructive capabilities). So...all the things I mentioned above, which were revealed during the fights...added completely nothing to the storyline huh? Well, I'd have to disagree with you there. Yeah, in the end it was kind of pathetic how easily the Arrancar were beaten. But meaningless? Wasted? Filler? I disagree.

Edit: Add-on.

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

It's because while Ichigo was more or less struggling with relatively weak Arankars (except for Grimjaw), all the other captains and vice-captains dealt with them relatively easily after the lifting of power restrictions.

I would think that Ichigo would have been easily able to dispose of several Arankars by himself if Hitsugaya and Ikkaku can.

I don't know.. I'm a bit confused as to Ichigo's situation in all this as well.

I don't really see how. In terms of Arrancar, he only fought Yamii. And he was doing incredibly well against him until he saw Yamii's Zanpakutou. At that point, he started to hesitate because he was trying to figure out what they were. He thought they may have been the same as himself and Hirako, and it was at this point where it seemed that his Hollow half tried to resurface. So at this point Ichigo is struggling...in a way, even fighting himself, in order to keep his Hollow side from taking control. Thus, he makes an easy target for Yamii.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

The two above 11 that came to check Ichigo fled after their encounter with two captains. I guess this should be an expected result. If those below-11 guys were as strong as the captains and vice-captains, the series should have ended with a complete defeat of the Shinigami, right? And, as long as you are not at that level, then you are not a match for the Shinigami captains. I believe this should be accepted as a satisfactory end to this encounter.

I don't think we ever really got any kind of evidence that proves Yamii and Ulquiorra are Espadas. Remember, when he returned, Aizen said "Now, come and relate the fruits of your expedition...to your twenty brothers.". Thusly, we can't be sure if they are Espadas since we never saw any number tattooed on them, and they were never mentioned later on to be Espadas. However, due to a certain picture from chapter 209, I'd say one of the silhouettes shown does resemble Ulquiorra. So I'd be willingly to concede that Ulquiorra could be an Espada (it also explains why Yamii was listening to his orders), but I doubt Yamii was one.

[Mizuno]

Lame. One moment they seemed worthy, the next they got owned by vice captains. And there I thought Ikkaku was anything special, he was fighting with full power.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Well, try to see things from a different point of view then.

After 210 chapters, we have yet to see a lot of Shinigamis in action. Some of them have done so little, that you actually need to check a character guide just to remember their names.

IMHO, having a lot of characters in a show is a fatal flaw, because it's doesn't allow proper development of several characters in any show; not just in Bleach.

The story is written from Ichigo's point of view. Only people that are related to him or his development are introduced. Since we do not have a tournament kind of thing, it is not that easy to show every little thing about the not-so-much related characters. It would take the focus off from the main story line. Even for the Shinigamis that we are shown, they are not unlimited in power or options of using their powers. Bankai is their peak, and we are shown quite a lot on that. I don't think we need more on that.

Also, the organizations the story deals are large organizations with many power levels (a shinigami world, arankar world, etc., making them small would not be a wise choice - would not help in Ichigo's development at all). The high number of characters is inevitable in such a story. And trying to give more on every character would kill the flow of the story. Currently, this is how I see.

Originally Posted by Dark`

I don't think we ever really got any kind of evidence that proves Yamii and Ulquiorra are Espadas. Remember, when he returned, Aizen said "Now, come and relate the fruits of your expedition...to your twenty brothers.". Thusly, we can't be sure if they are Espadas since we never saw any number tattooed on them, and they were never mentioned later on to be Espadas. However, due to a certain picture from chapter 209, I'd say one of the silhouettes shown does resemble Ulquiorra. So I'd be willingly to concede that Ulquiorra could be an Espada (it also explains why Yamii was listening to his orders), but I doubt Yamii was one.

I haven't checked previous chapters to see why I thought like that. But, one of the reasons might be Ulquiora (the intelligent one) to be wise enough to be included among the strongest one. Secondly, if I'd like to test someone, I want to send someone I trust. It is better to select someone special rather than some ordinary ones (compared to the special ones). For Yami, there is a high chance that he is at a lower level compared to Ulqiorra. But, if Ichigo didn't have such unexpected unstable condition at the moment, he wouldn't have any difficulty against Yami. Anyway, I will check later the previous chapters on that.

[Daniel E.]

Bleach has been around for 210, but not the Arrancar. They've been around for like...around 20 chapters, give or take a few. Calling the series lame after seeing 3 of the 11 and up Arrancar being beat does qualify as "jumping the gun" to me.

However, my comment was meant to cover the whole series, not just the recent battles.

But please dont get my wrong, even if I mention that Bleach has shown some 'lamenes' recently, I still enjoy watching it. I just dont follow the idea that says:

"I love this show and because of that, I am never gonna complain about anything in it"

Again, I am not saying is wrong to like everything that Bleach has to offer. In the end, this is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Also, the organizations the story deals are large organizations with many power levels (a shinigami world, arankar world, etc., making them small would not be a wise choice - would not help in Ichigo's development at all). The high number of characters is inevitable in such a story. And trying to give more on every character would kill the flow of the story. Currently, this is how I see.

Totally agree.

Like I just said, too many characters was a mistake from the start.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters.

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way.

Gee I didn't know the Arankall fight was going on for 210 chapters. Or maybe I'm talking about the fact that this is only the first of several Arankall fights to come, against the weaker tier Arankall, and people are already saying "the series shoud just end here"...

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Gee I didn't know the Arankall fight was going on for 210 chapters. Or maybe I'm talking about the fact that this is only the first of several Arankall fights to come, against the weaker tier Arankall, and people are already saying "the series shoud just end here"...

I think I already answered this on my previous post.

Like I already said, this is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree !!!

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

However, my comment was meant to cover the whole series, not just the recent battles.

But please dont get my wrong, even if I mention that Bleach has shown some 'lamenes' recently, I still enjoy watching it. I just dont follow the idea that says:

"I love this show and because of that, I am never gonna complain about anything in it"

Again, I am not saying is wrong to like everything that Bleach has to offer. In the end, this is just my opinion.

I still don't quite get what you're trying to say. You said, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters.

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way.

My interpretation of your statement is that you're calling the series 'lame' due to the fact that the bad guys aren't winning enough. Well...I want you to define to me what is a "bad guy" exactly.

At the start of the series, the basic antagonists were the Hollows. To me, they're basically the same as all those zombies of pre-RE4. Dumb and one good shot to the head and it's game over for them. You could hardly root for them...to me anyways. At least, not until we see one that showed some semblance of intelligence (in my opinion, the first true antagonist I felt you could really get behind would be the Grand Fisher...though the one who forced the kid's soul into the parakeet was pretty detestable).

After that...it was what? Byakuya, Renji and the rest of the Shinigami for trying to execute Rukia? I wouldn't really call them antagonists (even before we found out about Aizen's manipulation)...they were merely following orders, and really, I just felt it was a difference of opinions. No true bad guy in this case...to me anyways.

The first "true" antagonist, in my opinion, would be Aizen & Co. They manipulated all of Soul Society in order to get what they wanted. Though the fighting continues, you can hardly say that the end of the first "skirmish", if you will, was a notch in the belts of the Shinigami/protagonists. If anything, it was a victory for Aizen & Co.

Then, we see the appearance of the Arrancar. Yamii gets owned by Yoruichi, but only after thoroughly thrashing Chad and practically beheading Orohime with a vicious backhand. Then the new Arrancar enter and they too lose, but not before inflicting some damage (albeit, the Shinigami were held to roughly 20% of their power).

In terms of counting overall victories (I'm talking about whole skirmishes, not counting each individual battle), it's tied 1-1 (1.5-1 at the most, imho). The antagonists (Aizen & Co) scored a victory by obtaining Hougyoku and escaping Soul Society, while the protagonists (Ichigo & Co) scored a victory by pushing back Yamii and Ulquiorra (mainly Yamii). I suppose you can count the current skirmish as a victory (half victory to me, Grimjaw's still in prime fighting form) for the protagonists, so at most it'd be 2-1 (I still think it's more like 1-1 or 1.5-1). I don't see how the antagonists/bad guys aren't winning enough to make things interesting, when there really haven't been that many skirmishes for the antagonists to really win.

However, just as you said that was your opinion, this is mine. I will not try to force my opinion on you, nor do I think I am one of those "I love this show and because of that, I am never gonna complain about anything in it". I just simply think that, in the context of this chapter, the result is not earth-shattering, and isn't nearly as bad (END OF THE SERIES!!!!1!11!!one) as some make it out to be. I'm not singing the praises of it, but I don't think it's that bad either.

[Lackadaisical]

I'm just throwing this out here but does anyone else think the last ten chapters have been shown just to showcase the power of the real villians: the 1-10 numbers?

First the Allankar with numbers above ten prove to be too strong for the main characters. As such, when the characters go full power and win the victory seems important. Had the characters won from the start without ever being in any danger the Allankar would seem ridiculously weak as villians.

Now the characters release their power and defeat the Allankar easily. The Allankars, from their early advance, have proven themselves to be strong; just not as strong as the main characters.

The shinigami have proven themselves to be impressively strong by defeating the extremely dangerous Allankar.

Now these strong shinigami run into a member of the top ten Allankar and get crushed, wouldn't that make Grimmjow and his companions even more credible and dangerous as villians than if the shinigami barely beat the above ten Allankar before losing to Grimmjow?

As it is, the battles and victories so far seem entirely devoted to showcasing a few underrepresented characters and revealing how dangerous the true villians are.

Of course, this idea relies on Grimmjow winning, but that seems assured.

[Daniel E.]

My interpretation of your statement is that you're calling the series 'lame' due to the fact that the bad guys aren't winning enough. Well...I want you to define to me what is a "bad guy" exactly.

The good guys can win all the battles they want. My point from the very beginning is that I found strange (and lame) how the good guys always manage to survive in the end.

If there were only a few characters it would make some sense, but with dozens of shinigamis around, it would be kinda strange to see them all standing in the end.

Anyway...............

Let's see if things get more interesting down the road.

[Dark`]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

The good guys can win all the battles they want. My point from the very beginning is that I found strange (and lame) how the good guys always manage to survive in the end.

Well again, this seems to be an ongoing thing with shounen animes. Naruto, One Piece, Flame of Recca...and to an extent Dragonball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho. The last two are somewhat different (in DBZ you could be brought back to life via wishes, and in YYH the main character did die, but that was only the beginning of things to come). So...it's not really just Bleach that's doing that. Yeah, I'll admit, it's lame, but as for me, I've somewhat gotten used to it. It doesn't even really seem to phase me anymore.

If there were only a few characters it would make some sense, but with dozens of shinigamis around, it would be kinda strange to see them all standing in the end.

Anyway...............

Let's see if things get more interesting down the road.

As you said, in the end. Well, this is [most likely] far from the end my friend. Also, we are again talking about, for the most part, the Captains and Vice-Captains, the cream of the crop of Soul Society. I mean, if I saw some no name guy that Chad beat back in the Soul Society arc somehow surviving an attack from an Arrancar, I'd be outraged as well. But the Captains and Vice-Captains represent the 26 best (well, less than that now due to the defection of Aizen, Tousen and Gin), and as such, I can see them all standing [for the time being] against this group of Arrancar. We'll see. Hopefully, Kubo will do something differently when more Espadas, and maybe some Vastrodes, get introduced.

[ShikaShika]

Originally Posted by Dark`

So...as someone else said, should all of Ichigo's fights in Soul Society (vs Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi and Byakuya) have been skipped too, since they were "meaingless" displays of Ichigo's power? He is the main character after all and thus, under the unwritten rule of shounen anime, he must be the strongest character.

Those fights displayed how Ichigo's power developed, and how it developed during the fights as well. These fights didn't show us anything except the fact that the 11+ arrankars(sp?) aren't worthy opponents. Ok, so we got to see a new bankai and shikai, but couldn't this have waited until the inevitable fight against the somewhat decent enemies. I'm not saying these fights should have been skipped, just that the opponants could have been changed to some more powerful characters.

I just think it would have been a better choice to not add these worthless characters, going directly to enemies that might have stood a chance instead. At this point in the arc KT needs to make the enemy look strong and intimidating. I'm not asking for any shinigamis to be killed, but if the arrankars could have at least escaped instead of being squashed like bugs it would have added some tension to the story. But lets wait and see what Grimjaw can do. (Beginning to think Ichigo will kill him easily at this rate.)

There's been some comparisons to earlier plot developments in response to my posts, and lets just state for the record that while I sort of enjoy reading Bleach, it's certainly not one of the best shounen mangas I've read. I'm not saying it was much better back then, but it sure as hell isn't getting any better.

I hate being negative, and if you guys are enjoying this, then that's fine, but I'm clearly not the only one that found this last move by KT a bit questionable.

[carb]

well this was certainly fast and easy.. i was expecting something a bit more flare, especially from hitsuagaya.

btw anyone noticed, why does hitsugaya have that line in the middle of his face?

[Kona]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

The two above 11 that came to check Ichigo fled after their encounter with two captains. I guess this should be an expected result. If those below-11 guys were as strong as the captains and vice-captains, the series should have ended with a complete defeat of the Shinigami, right? And, as long as you are not at that level, then you are not a match for the Shinigami captains. I believe this should be accepted as a satisfactory end to this encounter.

Yama isnt a espada.. hes very weak

Originally Posted by ShikaShika

I don't care, they might as well have skipped these fights if it was just going to be a meaningless display off shinigami power. From a storyline point of view you need to create some tension by making the bad guys look intimidating. Even if these guys were relatively low level, it still makes Aizen & Co look stupid. If only Grimjaw (I know it's not the official spelling) would take on all the remaining shinigami and win, then I might be a bit excited again.

I just feel that these fights were all meaningless... Why do we need to be introduced to such cannonfodder at all, what did they really add to the storyline? I feel like I've just been reading filler. Bleh.

How are these fights pointless? It was grimmjaw who wanted to check out ichigo cause ulq didnt kill him and he has the authority over 11+ so thats enough reason to fight...

Originally Posted by Lackadaisical

I'm just throwing this out here but does anyone else think the last ten chapters have been shown just to showcase the power of the real villians: the 1-10 numbers?

First the Allankar with numbers above ten prove to be too strong for the main characters. As such, when the characters go full power and win the victory seems important. Had the characters won from the start without ever being in any danger the Allankar would seem ridiculously weak as villians.

Now the characters release their power and defeat the Allankar easily. The Allankars, from their early advance, have proven themselves to be strong; just not as strong as the main characters.

The shinigami have proven themselves to be impressively strong by defeating the extremely dangerous Allankar.

Now these strong shinigami run into a member of the top ten Allankar and get crushed, wouldn't that make Grimmjow and his companions even more credible and dangerous as villians than if the shinigami barely beat the above ten Allankar before losing to Grimmjow?

As it is, the battles and victories so far seem entirely devoted to showcasing a few underrepresented characters and revealing how dangerous the true villians are.

Of course, this idea relies on Grimmjow winning, but that seems assured.

Well renji,hitsugaya and rangiku are bottom barrel and 11+ arent that strong. Yea the espada isnt something to be fooling around with. I dont expect ichigo winning at all.. he doesnt have full control of his hollow and noname has urges to come out when he releases bankai.. Most likely i see somebody saving the day.. (vizard please? we havent seen them for a long time.. perfect time for a come back.)

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by ShikaShika

Those fights displayed how Ichigo's power developed, and how it developed during the fights as well. These fights didn't show us anything except the fact that the 11+ arrankars(sp?) aren't worthy opponents. Ok, so we got to see a new bankai and shikai, but couldn't this have waited until the inevitable fight against the somewhat decent enemies. I'm not saying these fights should have been skipped, just that the opponants could have been changed to some more powerful characters.

I just think it would have been a better choice to not add these worthless characters, going directly to enemies that might have stood a chance instead. At this point in the arc KT needs to make the enemy look strong and intimidating. I'm not asking for any shinigamis to be killed, but if the arrankars could have at least escaped instead of being squashed like bugs it would have added some tension to the story. But lets wait and see what Grimjaw can do. (Beginning to think Ichigo will kill him easily at this rate.)

There's been some comparisons to earlier plot developments in response to my posts, and lets just state for the record that while I sort of enjoy reading Bleach, it's certainly not one of the best shounen mangas I've read. I'm not saying it was much better back then, but it sure as hell isn't getting any better.

I hate being negative, and if you guys are enjoying this, then that's fine, but I'm clearly not the only one that found this last move by KT a bit questionable.

Let us assume that Grimjaw is around captain's level. And instead of sending the worthless opponents, all the above 11 level guys were sent to the world. Now, imagine what would have happened..

Without any early information on the opponents, all the Shinigami guys that were sent to the world would have been killed - in addition to Ichigo - maybe, despite the power up. After that, including Aizen-Gin-and the blind guy, and all the above-11 level guys were sent to Soul Society together with all the powerful hollows. End of Bleach with the bad guys win. Unfortunately, I don't see any other way around.

The current fights will allow both sides measure the level of the other side - without significant loss to any side. Both sides will be forced to determine ways to fight against the powerful opponents. Maybe Soul Society will search ways to call back other captain level Shinigami's in the world. We only know three of them. Maybe there are more. The power level difference in the case of Arancars is very different. Can you imagine what the power level for the ones in the next level will be? Instead of reaching the result too soon, these fights will allow both sides to prepare for the future big fight.

[SuperKnuckles]

Surely the Arankars will boast by saying stuff like "we didn't need them anyway".

Then look at the situation and how all the Shinigami more or less come out of the whole thing alive and well. While a whole slew of Arankars were killed off for good.

Still not a fair situation. I think a lot of the complaint recently comes from how the battles have been going radically one way or the other. It was just like a showcase of fighting techniques (which isn't bad), but it also resulted in there not being any real struggles.

I suppose we'll only see them happen when Ichigo fights.

[Blaster]

Well if 11+ Arrancars are too strong, then the 10 Espadas could have taken out the whole of SS. This is reasonable. I don't want a situation where an enemy is far too strong(Akatsuki), and fans will later complain how easy it is to beat the strong enemies.

About the chapter, I still don't understand how Matsumoto's zanpaktou works. I know it has resemblance to Byakuya's one but it the things that attack aren't the same.

[Dark Lord Zenigame]

That's the reasoning that I'd use, but there's also the idea that you'd want to make your strongest, most trusted troops have the upgrade before the others, just in case something goes wrong...

In the end, there's good reasoning for either way. ^_^;;

[Novarain]

Let's just see the result of Ichigo vs Grimmjow. An espada vs probable the best Shinigami/Hollow hybrid ever created. I think Ichigo might win but he'll also take a helluva beating himself. Or maybe Isshin might just decide to reveal himself to Ichigo and save his ass...

[Wolcik]

ok, few post are two long to read now, so I just write what I want to say...
it's sad that they won that easly when it could be some nice fighting instead, but...
1)Arrancar was probably to all Hollow's that was turrned (GrandFisher too),
2)Espada (sp?) is something much stronger.
3)Aizen still can make something stronger than nr 1 Espada (sp?) and call it diffrent,
4)Aizen can just kick some ass by himself,
5)Aizan can make Gin or himself stronger.

as for numering... there were 1,2,3..10, but probably were destroyed some time ago or
when there was somebody stronger than 10 than 10 become 11 ( 19=>10, 10=>11 11=>12 12=>13 ... 18=>19).
and GF would be something like 4 or even not Hyouka (sp?) thing made Arrancar :P