[Manga] Chapter 291 Discussion

[Marvel]

I Wouldn't call it a secret, but pure luck that Yondaime put the Kyuubi in Naruto. And for Naruto i think that he must know that using the Kyuubi's chakra isn't so good for himself. but since he's not aware or he doesn't care about it

[Zek]

Originally Posted by tramadrama

Why are people separating Naruto from Kyuubi? Isn't Naruto Kyuubi, using the philisophical theory of Forms?

I think it's been pretty clearly established that Naruto and Kyuubi are separate entities simply living within the same shell. In any case, what you want to call it is simply semantics. My complaint, in a nutshell, is that Naruto's fighting has gotten even more mindless since the timeskip thanks to this new tactic of growing Kyuubi tails. He can be clever when he fights normally, but when that fails he pulls out Kyuubi chakra and charges head-on. And now he even loses his personality on top of that, so we get to see nothing but his mindless rage throughout the fight.

Simply put, I'm sick of seeing Naruto get away with being an idiot because he has a lot of power. He's trained for 2.5 years with one of the Sannin and he still doesn't know any better. It's like Jiraiya never bothered to teach him a thing except how to grow Kyuubi tails.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Naruto in Kyuubi mode with 3 tails or more is nothing more then a beast.

I wouldnt be supprised if he used no jutsu's at all.

[Example: Naruto going beserk vs Haku/Sasuke (how the hell would he know how to deflect jutsu's??) my guess...it's killer instinct...no brains at all]

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Zek

Simply put, I'm sick of seeing Naruto get away with being an idiot because he has a lot of power.

Let me remind you that, maybe all the monsters in the story are idiots who usually get away with extreme power (Kyuubi - Shukaku (we never observed his real self not limited to Gaara - so he has to be more powerful)). By the way, from one side, these monsters being sealed can show that they are actually idiots. And, from the other side, sealing also shows that they cannot be stopped using normal techniques.

Actually, extreme power is what makes them idiots cause they don't need any complex stuff to terrorize their enemies. When Naruto gets extremely angry he becomes a monster. I cannot see why this is that hard to understand.

So if Sasuke would have had something that would kill his enemies easily, and in his fight against Itachi, he "would have never used" it. He would just play with Katon jutsus to get MSed in a second.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Yeah well Naruto's goal is to become Hokage....you cant become one as a complete idiot right? He is going to surpass every Hokage as he said...well his braindamage is pretty much Unrivalled in Naruto-verse...i wonder if someone will surpass him..

[Tyrone Biggums]

I doubt Naruto will become hokage in the end, hes prolly gonna end up dying and become "the greatest hokage who never was" or some such bullshit.

But i love seeing Naruto in a rage, id rather see that then watch him used Kage Bunshin...all out brawler styles with killer rage, what could be better then seeing rage out?

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Yeah well Naruto's goal is to become Hokage....you cant become one as a complete idiot right? He is going to surpass every Hokage as he said...well his braindamage is pretty much Unrivalled in Naruto-verse...i wonder if someone will surpass him..

I guess nobody expects him to become a Hokage at age 15. I believe Jiraiya was also told to be an idiot, when he was young. And Naruto showed lots of idiotic behaviors since the beginning of the show. Jiraiya still shows idiotic behaviors, sorry but, even if Naruto becomes Hokage, he will still continue to have idiotics behaviors. This won't change. Only, the amount will reduce.

As you become older, you can learn to control your emotions (this might be one of the reasons why Jiraiya lost to Oro in the past - cause he couldn't control his emotions regarding Oro when they fought the first time). I believe Naruto will change as it is observed in Jiraiya. Expecting him to continue to be the same a few years later is not fair to him. Similarly, expecting him to change completely compared to 2.5 years ago is also not fair. Naruto showed a glimpse of his growth in Itachi fight, where the emotional impact was low. And, as time passes, he will learn to keep his emotions under much control. We will then able to observe his full growth. And that will be the time he will become the Hokage.

[Seiken]

Originally Posted by Zek

And now he even loses his personality on top of that, so we get to see nothing but his mindless rage throughout the fight.

I wonder if it's going to be something like the oozaru (sp?) in dbz... Sorry, I really hate to bring up dbz since I hate it so much when other people do it, but I'm genuinely wondering... maybe once Naruto hits a certain amount of tails (9, perhaps?) he will regain complete control a la SSJ4. I hate myself now for making dbz comparions.

[Missilebuster]

Originally Posted by astayanax

I can see Naruto losing Kyuubi to Akatsuki near the end of the series (similar to what happened to Gaara) and that is most likely when he will learn to be powerful on his own merit.

While I am growing to like Naruto more; he is still nothing but a brawler and could easily be removed from the series without anyone missing a heartbeat. Guys like Sasori (when he was alived), Orochimaru, Kabuto, Kakashi, Shino, new Sakura, etc is what is keeping the show up.

thatd be cool if he loses it, then very last episode he absorbs it using the fourth's technique... end of series

[Zek]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Let me remind you that, maybe all the monsters in the story are idiots who usually get away with extreme power (Kyuubi - Shukaku (we never observed his real self not limited to Gaara - so he has to be more powerful)). By the way, from one side, these monsters being sealed can show that they are actually idiots. And, from the other side, sealing also shows that they cannot be stopped using normal techniques.

Actually, extreme power is what makes them idiots cause they don't need any complex stuff to terrorize their enemies. When Naruto gets extremely angry he becomes a monster. I cannot see why this is that hard to understand.

So if Sasuke would have had something that would kill his enemies easily, and in his fight against Itachi, he "would have never used" it. He would just play with Katon jutsus to get MSed in a second.

Well, what's your point? I know why he acts stupidly in Kyuubi form. My point is that I don't want to see him grow Kyuubi tails every time he's in a serious fight. He loses everything that made him a likeable character when he does, and it's alright if it happens once in a while like in Part 1, but recent events make it seem as if he's not even trying to fight normally anymore. When he starts growing Kyuubi tails, his personal training, his personality and the trickiness he's displayed before are all thrown out the window and he just becomes a monster.

Basically, I want Naruto to start fighting normally again without becoming Kyuubified. Using its chakra is one thing, but being controlled by it is another entirely. I'm hoping that the story will soon develop such that Naruto realizes the consequences of his actions(i.e. he seriously wounds Sakura in 4-tail mode). It seems that the more he exploits Kyuubi's power, the more the seal weakens and the more influence Kyuubi has over him. I want Naruto to understand that this is a bad thing, and begin struggling to rely on his own strength as much as possible instead of Kyuubi's.

[Mizuno]

3-tailed naruto looks like lee with gates opened.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Zek

Well, what's your point? I know why he acts stupidly in Kyuubi form. My point is that I don't want to see him grow Kyuubi tails every time he's in a serious fight. He loses everything that made him a likeable character when he does, and it's alright if it happens once in a while like in Part 1, but recent events make it seem as if he's not even trying to fight normally anymore. When he starts growing Kyuubi tails, his personal training, his personality and the trickiness he's displayed before are all thrown out the window and he just becomes a monster.

If you can understand why he grew tails in Sasuke fight, then you should be able to clearly understand why he grew the tails now. As I mentioned later, unless he can have full control on his emotions this will not change, and he will not improve %100. So, expect to see more of these Kyuubi modes. You know his anger, you know how his emotional structure, you know the current situation, and you expect him to do a chitty-chatty fight. If it would be a fight that you expect in that situation - no Kyuubi mode, I would have suspected that Kishi was replaced.

It seems that the more he exploits Kyuubi's power, the more the seal weakens and the more influence Kyuubi has over him. I want Naruto to understand that this is a bad thing, and begin struggling to rely on his own strength as much as possible instead of Kyuubi's.

For the first part, if that is the case, can you think of it like Kyuubi intentionally manipulates Naruto's emotions? If that is the case, then how can you expect young-Naruto, who cannot even control Kyuubi right now, to have an near-equal fight with Oro without borrowing extreme Kyuubi powers? Imo, it wouldn't be logical to believe that 2.5 years of training is sufficient to overcome that Kyuubified-control-loss. If he had done that, he could have already become a nominee for Hokage, right now, you know.

For the second part, without using that power on extreme levels and having a bad experience, how can you make him understand that this is a bad thing? Jiraiya sealed that when it happened (and/or whenever it has repeated); it is possible that Naruto is not even aware of what he had done to Jiraiya. So, you want him to experience this where, in his image-fight?

[Nubixkube]

People don't seem to like Naruto using the kyuubi chakra for some reason, even though at this point in time, Naruto and the Kyuubi are one.

Jiraiya said he has consciousness up to 3 tails. I would like to see him perform some new jutsus in this state, as I'm sure he will.

[Zek]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

If you can understand why he grew tails in Sasuke fight, then you should be able to clearly understand why he grew the tails now. As I mentioned later, unless he can have full control on his emotions this will not change, and he will not improve %100. So, expect to see more of these Kyuubi modes. You know his anger, you know how his emotional structure, you know the current situation, and you expect him to do a chitty-chatty fight. If it would be a fight that you expect in that situation - no Kyuubi mode, I would have suspected that Kishi was replaced.

You're still missing the point. I understand why this is happening, given the situation. I do think Jiraiya should have taught him to control his anger more effectively, but he didn't, so naturally Naruto is going to go Kyuubi in situations like this. I'm simply expressing my desire that Kishimoto will start to show a little more respect for Naruto's character and give him a chance to shine on his own, and not just as a Jinchuuriki. It's too late for this fight, but it's still very possible for Naruto to show some inner growth in the near future depending on how this turns out.

For the first part, if that is the case, can you think of it like Kyuubi intentionally manipulates Naruto's emotions? If that is the case, then how can you expect young-Naruto, who cannot even control Kyuubi right now, to have an near-equal fight with Oro without borrowing extreme Kyuubi powers? Imo, it wouldn't be logical to believe that 2.5 years of training is sufficient to overcome that Kyuubified-control-loss. If he had done that, he could have already become a nominee for Hokage, right now, you know.

I don't expect Naruto to have an equal fight with Oro. We all thought Team 7 was in serious trouble before this chapter, remember? He could plausibly have been high Jounin level without becoming Kyuubified(he was stronger than Neji and Gaara pre-timeskip, who are both obviously Jounin level now), but instead Kishimoto chose to make him worthless until he gives in to his rage. Seriously disappointing. In this particular encounter, I think Team 7 should have been in a bad situation, and fight in their previously determined teams. I still don't think Oro's going to lose though.

For the second part, without using that power on extreme levels and having a bad experience, how can you make him understand that this is a bad thing? Jiraiya sealed that when it happened (and/or whenever it has repeated); it is possible that Naruto is not even aware of what he had done to Jiraiya. So, you want him to experience this where, in his image-fight?

I don't see how he can not be aware of Jiraiya receiving an injury like that, but either way Jiraiya should have done a better job of impressing upon him that growing Kyuubi tails is a seriously bad idea. Whatever the case, I'm hoping that this "bad experience" is going to come in this very fight.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I guess nobody expects him to become a Hokage at age 15. I believe Jiraiya was also told to be an idiot, when he was young. And Naruto showed lots of idiotic behaviors since the beginning of the show. Jiraiya still shows idiotic behaviors, sorry but, even if Naruto becomes Hokage, he will still continue to have idiotics behaviors. This won't change. Only, the amount will reduce.

As you become older, you can learn to control your emotions (this might be one of the reasons why Jiraiya lost to Oro in the past - cause he couldn't control his emotions regarding Oro when they fought the first time). I believe Naruto will change as it is observed in Jiraiya. Expecting him to continue to be the same a few years later is not fair to him. Similarly, expecting him to change completely compared to 2.5 years ago is also not fair. Naruto showed a glimpse of his growth in Itachi fight, where the emotional impact was low. And, as time passes, he will learn to keep his emotions under much control. We will then able to observe his full growth. And that will be the time he will become the Hokage.

I wouldnt call Gaara really smart but i'd say Naruto would seem alot smarter if he'd just shut up...

Being anti-social and powerfull is better, more powerfull but having a loudmouth and showing your stupidity.

Anyway Kabuto honestly doesnt seem so powerfull...i got a big hunch that Naruto can kill him right there on the spot...(he seemed scared of Sasuke before the skip aswell) And these laboratory rats should be killed pretty fast...being a ninja (in a ancient world) is more interesting then mixing ancient lands with high-tech stuff and scientists amoung them.

[Rachy]

Anyway Kabuto honestly doesnt seem so powerfull...i got a big hunch that Naruto can kill him right there on the spot...(he seemed scared of Sasuke before the skip aswell) And these laboratory rats should be killed pretty fast...being a ninja (in a ancient world) is more interesting then mixing ancient lands with high-tech stuff and scientists amoung them

I think kabuto has gotten a fair bit stronger now... he was standing there with a big smile the whole time ... hes dodgy ( and i hate him ).

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Zek

Whatever the case, I'm hoping that this "bad experience" is going to come in this very fight.

I hope, if it happens, that bad experience will not be similar to the case of Sakura stopping Sasuke in the Chuunin exam, although it might be more meaningful.

Also, in the current case, it is still possible to grow more tails, and to be in weak-control as it has happened before (no-tail case against Haku, first tail experience against Sasuke). The chapter ended with three tails, if he still remains conscious at the beginning of the next chapter, then we can say he already exceeded that 4-tails limit. And, he might still perform some jutsus in the three-tails mode.

[AkatsukisApprentice]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

I think kabuto has gotten a fair bit stronger now... he was standing there with a big smile the whole time ... hes dodgy ( and i hate him ).

Yeah Kabuto is very calm regardless of the situation...I agree with you, he is a very dodgy person.... I bet he is hiding something.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

The chapter ended with three tails, if he still remains conscious at the beginning of the next chapter, then we can say he already exceeded that 4-tails limit. And, he might still perform some jutsus in the three-tails mode.

The chapter ended with a fourth tail growing (at least, it looks like another tail to me). So if Jiraiya is right, Naruto may not be himself next chapter.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I checked it again, there are three tails. There are also two antlers. Chakra over his legs, etc.

Ah, you're right. It was the right ear (antler?) that I was looking at.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by monstert

The chapter ended with a fourth tail growing (at leat, it looks like another tail to me). So if Jiraiya is right, Naruto may not be himself next chapter.

I checked it again, there are three tails. There are also two antlers. Chakra over his legs, etc.