Are shoujo manga/anime really anti-feminist

[Triple_R]

I haven't read or watched much shoujo (outside of the mahou shoujo type, anyway). However, from what I've read on this thread, and from what I've heard some of my anime-watching friends say on the topic, it seems to me that shoujou romances tend to basically be gender-bended versions of the sorts of romances found in shounen works, and in shows like Toradora and Shakugan no Shana in particular.

We're all familiar, I'm sure, with the tsundere who's "crispy/abrasive on the outside, creamy/sweet on the inside". It seems to me that the jerk with the heart of gold is more or less the male equivalent to that.

Then we have our meek milquetoast male lead who tries to win over the tsundere and/or continually puts up with her abuse. It seems to me that the female lead in shoujos who tries to reform the jerk with a heart of gold, and who puts up with his abuse, is more or less the female equivalent to that meek milquetoast male lead.

In both cases, it's not exactly my conception of a good healthy romance, but then I'm not exactly sure why mistreated nice guy/tsundere is any less offensive than mistreated nice girl/jerk with a heart of gold. From what people are saying on this thread, they seem to be mirror images of one another, every bit as much as Haruki/Kyonko is the gender-bended mirror image of Haruhi/Kyon.

Perhaps Japanese anime/manga fans in general (males and female alike) find the idea of winning over a hard case (be it tsundere or jerk with a heart of gold) to be enticing and challenging?

Just something to think about.

There's also what Vexx wrote here, of course...

Originally Posted by Vexx

But as for shoujo... I guess I read a small subset of it as I've not encountered very much anti-feminist sentiment. The worst I can think is simply people operating within the restrictions of japanese society in the time period the story is set in.

For example, I wouldn't call Kimi ni Todoke anti-feminist.... its a glacial story of a girl so shy she's almost non-functional who evolves outward from that.

I agree with that myself, especially on Kimi ni Todoke. None of the major protagonist males in that strikes me as being a jerk at all.

However, it's glacial pace is why I eventually did stop watching Kimi ni Todoke, as much as I liked the first fifteen or so episodes of it.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Furthermore, if I see my neighbour violently shake a baby, I wont just confront them with it, I'd call the police and social services.

And the baby chokes to death as you restrain her from trying to disloge a stuck object.

Then grounding the child for throwing a tantrum is just unacceptable violation of individual rights. That must be corrected

Followed by those crazy asian mothers who make their children study. The horror. Take them all to jail for ruining the child's life

And worse, hitting the child's hand for constantly lying. Thats assault and battery, the parent should be thrown into jai.

All these have the same basis.
"MY viewpoint is the right one and the ONLY right one"

This is the ultimate failure of recognising other viewpoints are correct for people that are not YOU. My stand to this is simple. Those who make up that society is ultimately responsible for it and are the ones who make any decisions for it.

[Irisiel]

I just pointed out that the baby analogue doesn't really fit when talking about cultures. Shaking a baby is proven to be damaging to a baby, so if that happens, authorities should be called so that the situation can be resolved, but since cultures don't have authorities, it is not a good comparison.

All cultures have something good in them (or otherwise they wouldn't exist, or would quickly die out), but there is no such thing as a perfect culture, that's really what everyone is trying to improve.

Japanese feminists, for example, tries to improve things, and it's mainly from them that I've shaped my view on anime and manga, along with some of my own discoveries and experiences (also called bias); some are feminist, some are not, and some simply strive to give a image of the real world.

Furthermore, while there are some general consensus amongst feminists, not everyone agrees on everything. What I've used is by own basis of feminism, but it's hardly the only version of it.

I mean, some find porn and sex work degrading and should be banned. Some find them empowering. Some find stay-at-home mums inherently degrading, others find that as long as it was choice made by the mum it's alright. This can go on forever, and sometimes there's war between the different view points.

One of the things that makes the question "Is shoujo manga inherently anti-feminist?" so hard to answer is because there are so many different types of feminism, and different ways they are implemented.

And I never said that my view point was the only right one. Can you come up with where I said it, and counter arguments to my arguments? Or can we agree to disagree? Because I can certainly not speak for anyone else but myself.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

And I never said that my view point was the only right one. Can you come up with where I said it, and counter arguments to my arguments? Or can we agree to disagree? Because I can certainly not speak for anyone else but myself.

Pretty much your entire post below. You are implementing YOUR values onto the society much like the examples of the children i have given, most clearly on the beating the child's hand example which would have some people screaming ABUSE!

Originally Posted by Irisiel

And just because something is cultural, traditional and "it's the way it is here" doesn't mean that it can't be abusive and damaging. I wont quietly step aside on issues like rape culture and female genital mutilation just because it's traditional in some country. Nor do I agree with a cultural depiction that tries to box in women as being weak, needy and doesn't understand fighting even if it's fighting to protect other people, just because that is the traditional view of women in that country. snip

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Because I can certainly not speak for anyone else but myself.

Also about the above. You can speak for yourself, thats fine. That does not change the fact that this is stamping external values (aka yours) into a culture of which you are not a participant unless you're japanese, in which case i label this as in need of more action, less empty talk.

If said japanese feminists are really a large group then change will come because the society itself dictates it. If said japanese feminists are a small group then obviously society in general has not accepted the message and will not accept that message until the majority of the society as a whole does so.

[Irisiel]

Then I'm sorry that I expressed myself in such a way, and I apologise and I will educate myself better to not do it again.

I know that I threw my hands in the air in exasperation when the US decided to force the Middle East to conform to their norms, as I knew that there were already many local feminists working on it, so it's kind of embarrassing that I did the same.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

If said japanese feminists are really a large group then change will come because the society itself dictates it. If said japanese feminists are a small group then obviously society in general has not accepted the message and will not accept that message until the majority of the society as a whole does so.

Or until the society crashes (low birth rate, etc) because of stubborn obstinence....

Absolute cultural relativism is as "stupid" as the other end of the spectrum. *Nothing* is immune from critique or from having to defend itself to examination, from inside or outside.

Parallel societies are like a group of coworkers or housemates... no one is immune from peer review of the basics that most societies have a consensus on (like the "Golden Rule" which pops up in almost all sustainable religion/philosophy).

OTOH... change forced from outside doesn't stick as well, but that isn't what the topic of this thread is about. Its about analyzing whether certain factors *exist* in branches of a particular literature. As I pointed out earlier, the Western equivalent of shoujo ("trashy" romance novels) is even more sexist or even misogynist in its depictions of fantastic romance. They're both escapist literature... whether they actually encourage some conformist attitudes or are simply diversionary is harder to judge.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

I know that I threw my hands in the air in exasperation when the US decided to force the Middle East to conform to their norms, as I knew that there were already many local feminists working on it, so it's kind of embarrassing that I did the same.

I would also like to apologise to you if my sentences sound rude as on reflection it may.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Or until the society crashes (low birth rate, etc) because of stubborn obstinence....
Absolute cultural relativism is as "stupid" as the other end of the spectrum. *Nothing* is immune from critique or from having to defend itself to examination.

Then it crashes. However it crashes because of the choices it made itself. A lesson i learned a long time ago is that you cannot help those who do not wish to helped. This is because they view your "help" differently from how you view it and in some cases they think you are treating them like idiots.

If you say japan has to defend its own culture, then i would say they would laugh at you because you're not "them" and talk is cheap. Action is not.

Many times there will be someone who says "Having X in country Y is wrong". My answer is simply this. Then move there and participate in their society and change it, if you can. If not, volunteer to adopt any and all children of country Y and show them how their culture is terrible and let said children have a chance of living free of the culture's horrible portions.

As expected, i have never found one willing to take on the latter. The former works only if the person already desires to go there. Yet most are more then happen to continue empty talk.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Its about analyzing whether certain factors *exist* in branches of a particular literature.

Fair enough, however for anything objective, you would need to define what is sexist and what it comprises of. This must by function be the original poster's job. Without a list you're just treating what you think is sexist which others may not. The same principle above applied to microscopic levels

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

If you say japan has to defend its own culture, then i would say they would laugh at you because you're not "them" and talk is cheap. Action is not.

Many times there will be someone who says "Having X in country Y is wrong". My answer is simply this. Then move there and participate in their society and change it, if you can. If not, volunteer to adopt any and all children of country Y and show them how their culture is terrible and let said children have a chance of living free of the culture's horrible portions.

Maybe you should pay more attention to international relations... because this is EXACTLY what happens between countries. Japan is moving (glacially but moving) on both child porn and child custody issues because of pressure from outside.

If a neighbor is behaving in ways that appall the other neighbors, they simply will not be left in a vacuum.

And I'll say again... the thread is not about *forcing change* on shoujo, but about analyzing attributes of it in a literary sense. You seem intent on changing the thread topic.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Maybe you should pay more attention to international relations... because this is EXACTLY what happens between countries. Japan is moving (glacially but moving) on both child porn and child custody issues because of pressure from outside.

Hardly, the main movers of this is the "general public" and "concerned parents". If you were saying economic restrictions, pacts and similar then it would be correct but said economic matters do not impact the society directly.

Originally Posted by Vexx

And I'll say again... the thread is not about *forcing change* on shoujo, but about analyzing attributes of it in a literary sense. You seem intent on changing the thread topic.

I am point out the fundamental problem of this. This is itself a subjective matter, not an objective one. Hence any "analyzing attributes of it in a literary sense" must be done with a baseline already established

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Absolute cultural relativism is as "stupid" as the other end of the spectrum. *Nothing* is immune from critique or from having to defend itself to examination, from inside or outside.

Hmm, yea. I'd think it'd be nonsense to assume anything is immune from criticism.

I mean say, stuff like treating women as property or racial segregation would be considered pretty hideous things by many a modern society. But wait, actually that hasn't been reviled for that long in human history... It doesn't mean we can't have a bone to pick with it, even though we shouldn't call most notable peeople who lived 200 years ago a racist and sexist bastard since they grew up in a society with those values. We shouldn't condemn the people, but the ideas are fair targets.

This is far different from say food between different culture. One may think it may be disgusting to eat certain kinds of animals, but it'd be silly to get up and arms about it as trying to have something objective about that is silly.

As for the original question? Not really, relative to the rest of the medium.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

And the baby chokes to death as you restrain her from trying to disloge a stuck object.

Then grounding the child for throwing a tantrum is just unacceptable violation of individual rights. That must be corrected

Followed by those crazy asian mothers who make their children study. The horror. Take them all to jail for ruining the child's life

And worse, hitting the child's hand for constantly lying. Thats assault and battery, the parent should be thrown into jai.

All these have the same basis.
"MY viewpoint is the right one and the ONLY right one"

This is the ultimate failure of recognising other viewpoints are correct for people that are not YOU. My stand to this is simple. Those who make up that society is ultimately responsible for it and are the ones who make any decisions for it.

Hang on, there's never a time you would ever shake a baby. We're not talking about differing views on child discipline or anything like that.

What we're talking about is that some Shoujo Manga, are disturbingly sexist. The only time I ever see the same plotlines are in Male Rape Erotica, which I think is indicative of how degrading some of it is.

Now I'm not talking about girls competing over whether they're better at cooking, or Yamato Nadesico, I can accept any of that as cultural differences. But when fiction glorifies what is essentially Rape as an act of love, and idolises dysfunctional male behaviour, I think there's a problem with the literature.

I don't however think this is a problem with Japanese society, the lions share of Shoujo is innocuous at best. I'd saythe female leads are a bit weak and annoying, but hey, as Triple_R said, a lot of Male shounen leads are basically milquetoasts too.

But there is a difference. In the shounen example the girl is "Tsundere" IE both Tsun and Dere, both hostile and also soft side. By the end the male, to an extent, tames the girl and she softens up a little. Generally it's pretty healthy, as both people are basically the same at the end.

In the Shoujo case it's usually: Guy is a jerk, he's got a "troubled past" (not a soft side), the girl then serves him and hopes to change his mind about women, if she starts off spunky she usually gradually becomes more submissive and "adult". Meanwhile the guy basically isn't as much of a jerk, but he's still pretty much the boss. IE the message is basically "act submissive, and your guy will stop being a jerk", which in real life never works, and results in thousands of abusive relationships where the girl keeps having the hope that she can "change" the guy by just being a better wife/girlfriend.

But milder versions, like in Kimi no Todoke, or Nodame Cantabile are fine in my book, if occasionally a little dull.

On the flip side, I think it's a bit ridiculous that every female character has to be analysed in terms of "being a role model for girls". Even villains, only male protagonists ever get that treatment. We never talk about whether Chewbacca, Darth Vader or the Emperor make for good male role models, whereas if any female character displays poor behaviour, or whatever, there's always a "Is this a proper message to send to today's young girls?" I think female characters should be free to be portrayed as flawed, villainous or whatever. It does become problematic when certain stereotypes are too ingrained, but we should maintain a sense of perspective.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

In the Shoujo case it's usually: Guy is a jerk, he's got a "troubled past" (not a soft side), the girl then serves him and hopes to change his mind about women, if she starts off spunky she usually gradually becomes more submissive and "adult". Meanwhile the guy basically isn't as much of a jerk, but he's still pretty much the boss.

"The boss"? o_o Not really in most of the ones I've read. But I read shoujo for the younger crowd so you don't really see that.
In the case of most tsunderes in shoujo manga (that I've read), the tsundere is only hostile verbally. His actions indicate otherwise. He'll call the girl an idiot when he gets mad at her yet also be the one to throw himself in front of a truck for her. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words. Takuto from Full Moon Wo Sagashite (my #1 favorite ani/manga character) is a perfect example of this. He's tsundere as the day is long, foul-mouthed, a little insensitive, and doesn't always think before he snaps at Mitsuki (usually out of jealousy or frustration) but he
Major spoiler is major!!

Spoiler:

always protects her and helps her no matter what and ends up dying for her, out of pure, unconditional love.

IE the message is basically "act submissive, and your guy will stop being a jerk", which in real life never works, and results in thousands of abusive relationships where the girl keeps having the hope that she can "change" the guy by just being a better wife/girlfriend.

I've never looked at a romance manga as something trying to "give you a message". It's just a story, really. Why do people immediately attach "messages on this is how you should act in real life" to everything? >_> Why can't it just be "entertainment for sheer entertainment"!?

But there is a difference. In the shounen example the girl is "Tsundere" IE both Tsun and Dere, both hostile and also soft side. By the end the male, to an extent, tames the girl and she softens up a little. Generally it's pretty healthy, as both people are basically the same at the end.

Um.............a lot of shoujo are just like that too. I will not read series that feature abusive relationships. But you're forgetting in most tsunderes' cases, they are soft underneath to begin with. The love interest just holds the key of bringing that to the surface. I don't think that's wrong. Loving someone means supporting each other and strengthening each other's hearts and bringing out the best in each other as well.



In stories where the boy is cold to the girl simply because he's jealous that she's crushing on someone else or simply because he's afraid to trust people but the girl wins his heart by being a friend to him and he becomes a warmer person?
I see nothing wrong or anti-feminist about this trope that I call "Taming the Untamed". I think it's sweet. Then if said friendship turns into love because of that, that's quite nice. Sometimes the situation can even be boy-to-girl, boy-to-boy, or girl-to-girl, and STAY "friendship" Which is also nice. Some of the series that show this are not shoujo, but I'm using them to illustrate this point:

Taming the Untamed.

Spoiler for Fruits Basket:

{Shoujo) Tooru made friends with hostile Kyou by being kind to him (not a girlfriend) when nobody else was and they eventually fell in love.

Spoiler for Princess Tutu:

(Shoujo) Fakir didn't trust Ahiru at first and she also hated him but then he started being nice to her (in her duck form). They end up cooperating and becoming friends and "hinted" love interests.

Spoiler for Soul Eater:

Maka befriends Chrona, an unwanted child, and a villian's puppet. They become really good friends but do not fall in love.

Spoiler for Gakuen Alice manga:

(Shoujo) Mikan and Natsume were sworn enemies until Mikan notices Natsume's actions aren't always bad. She befriends him and they develop feelings for each other.

Spoiler for Chrno Crusade:

Rosette and Joshua make friends with Chrono, a devil who did not interact with humans. Rosette and Chrno become partners in battle, and subtle lovers through this.

Spoiler for Mamotte Loliipop manga:

In volume two's sidestory, "nice guy" Ichi was revealed to be quite the no-good gangster in his past. It took the friendship of the more immature Zero (another boy) to tame him.

Now, the four romantic cases of "Taming the Untamed" here, will, if you notice, have the boy falling for the girl first when from her point of view, she's only being a friend to him. I see nothing wrong with this. It's not anti-feminist because the girl is pretty much thinking, "It's sad to see someone like this. He should have someone to talk to.", not "I'm so in love with him!! He's mean but I bet if I love him well enough, it'll fix him".
See the difference?

It seems to me that the female lead in shoujos who tries to reform the jerk with a heart of gold, and who puts up with his abuse

Actually it's not like she really "puts up with his abuse", rather she stomps off, all mad at him until he apologizes....and I can't even consider screaming "BAKA!!!!" when the girl is indeed, doing something stupid that could result in her getting hurt, as "abuse". Which is pretty much the ONLY abuse the male displays. Unless you count childish teasing he may perform "because the truth is, he likes her".

As for the real question in this thread: Just like everything else, it's a mixed bag. You've got really horrible wtf anti-feminist shoujo like Shinjo Mayu and Yuu Watase...and you've got really awesome 'GIRL POWER' shoujo like Arina Tanemura, Naoko Takeuchi, etc.

Then there's Shugo Chara, in which the Heroine fights Evil for 99 percent of the manga, only to end the manga with *ultimate transformation: Bride* "Girls can't fight". Seriously, the coalition of becoming a cheerleader, artist, songstress and housewife is apparently to become a bride, and her epiphany is that she's a girl and therefore can't fight. Do I have to explain why this is anti-feminist?

As I recall, Amu in Shugo Chara never said "I can't fight". She said "I don't WANT to fight." There's a big difference there. It's obvious Amu CAN fight if she wants to-she's been fighting for ten bloody volumes. She's just tired of it! She made her own decision out of her own preference and that's fine.

[TheFluff]

As far as I can tell every single poster in this thread is male and almost everyone has a deeply flawed understanding of what feminism actually means.

Warning signs that you might be a conservative patriarchal douchebag:
- You think that patriarchal patterns and/or exploitation of women are a-ok just because they're fictional
- You think that deeply sexualized portrayals of women in fiction are "feminist" just because the women in question are "badass" (see Revy, the Major, etc)
- You think that portrayals of women in fiction that strongly reinforce patriarchal gender roles are "feminist" just because the women in question can take care of themselves (see the protagonist of Saiunkoki Monogatari)
- You think it's pretty cool to collect scantily-clad figurines of women
- You think the fact that you like yuri and/or yaoi means that you have a progressive view of gender roles

There is no feminist anime. At all. There are some series that are somewhat progressive when it comes to gender role issues, but if you think the answer is Ranma 1/2 (which is extremely patriarchal) you'd be wrong. Think Wandering Son, instead. There might exist feminist manga or doujin, but I haven't read any so I can't comment.

Manga and anime in general is extremely conservative when it comes to gender roles and feminism, which is unsurprising considering the opinions of the Japanese general public. Manga and anime fans in general are also extremely patriarchal and conservative when it comes to gender issues, which is likewise unsurprising since it's sort of hard to combine the fascination most of them seems to have with lolis, animated tits and girls with animal ears with any sort of real interest in gender studies.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

As far as I can tell every single poster in this thread is male

I am a feminist GIRL, thank you. And I bloody know what I'm talking about. >=p What do you possibly go by to determine posters' sexes, is what I'D like to know....

There is no feminist anime. At all.

Really? You mean to sit there and tell us that you went through every single anime title made since the beginning to come to this conclusion?
Incorrect. Dead incorrect.
I f**king hate stupid generalizations like that.

[Irisiel]

I'm a woman. And have you seen Saiunkoku Monogatari? While it isn't the most feminist story, it isn't anti-feminist either. Just like how VB Rose and 1/2 Prince aren't anti-feminist. They just kind of hovers between, sometimes being feminist, sometimes not, and sometimes they are trapped by the setting.

Oh, and Shuurei does much, much more than take care of herself. Unless kicking the emperor back into shape and uncovering corruption in the government AND becoming the first ever female governor are just about taking care of herself. She has ambitions, and she does everything she can to fulfil them while living in a explicitly sexist society.

Anyway, this link might be of interest. Disclaimer: I don't agree with all of it, but it shows that I'm not the only one who recommend Saiunkoku.

But it is as I say, many different people will have many different feminisms (just read up on porn/anti-porn feminism, house-spouse and anti-house-spouse feminism, religious feminism versus anti-religious feminism, there's millions out there!).

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I am a feminist GIRL, thank you. And I bloody know what I'm talking about. >=p What do you possibly go by to determine posters' sexes, is what I'D like to know....

Your custom title/avatar/signature combo strongly supports my theory that you are male. While female anime watchers generally have just as terrible tastes as male ones do, they do not tend to like sexualizations of underaged girls (lolis). I remain unconvinced that you are actually female.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

I'm a woman. And have you seen Saiunkoku Monogatari? While it isn't the most feminist story, it isn't anti-feminist either. Just like how VB Rose and 1/2 Prince aren't anti-feminist. They just kind of hovers between, sometimes being feminist, sometimes not, and sometimes they are trapped by the setting.

Oh, and Shuurei does much, much more than take care of herself. Unless kicking the emperor back into shape and uncovering corruption in the government AND becoming the first ever female governor are just about taking care of herself. She has ambitions, and she does everything she can to fulfil them while living in a explicitly sexist society.

I have only actually watched the first few episodes of the anime; I read a summary of the rest. The first few episodes gave off a very strong impression that Shuurei's character is about taking care of male characters, either through plain old housework or through other ways. She seemed to me to be defined (in the first few episodes) by the male characters she interacted with, not by her own merits. But maybe that changes later on, the summary wasn't very explicit so I'm quite possibly wrong.

[Random32]

1. I think people are overanalyzing when think everything is trying to send some message good or bad.
2. I would have to agree that most people in this thread do not understand feminism. Most people period do not understand feminism. I would say I'm in this category as well.
3. I think its better to ask whether shoujo manga is more or less feminist than seinen manga. Or more/less fem than Hollywood movies. We need a point of reference to compare shoujo manga too.
4. TheFluff. What is feminism? We should know that before we continue.
5. I think that a more quantifiable way to measure feminism is to count the ratio of main female strong characters to the number of main female weak characters. Please note I specifically said female [strong character] as opposed to [strong female] character. Badass female characters are not necessarily strong characters.
6. What is a female strong character test imho:
a. She must have a goal (beyond getting hooked with a guy)
b. flaws (beyond being attracted to complete jerks)
c. try to overcome those flaws to achieve her goal
d. (if applicable) she isn't saved, she is helped
isn't perfect, suggest something better if you want

Your custom title/avatar/signature combo strongly supports my theory that you are male. While female anime watchers generally have just as terrible tastes as male ones do, they do not tend to like sexualizations of underaged girls (lolis). I remain unconvinced that you are actually female.

So you can't like lolicon if you are female. wtf. I know girls that like loli, maybe significantly less than guys that like loli, but you don't go up to every girl on the internet that likes loli and accuse them of being a G.I.R.L.

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

I have only actually watched the first few episodes of the anime; I read a summary of the rest. The first few episodes gave off a very strong impression that Shuurei's character is about taking care of male characters, either through plain old housework or through other ways. She seemed to me to be defined (in the first few episodes) by the male characters she interacted with, not by her own merits. But maybe that changes later on, the summary wasn't very explicit so I'm quite possibly wrong.

Spoiler for Saiunkoku spoilers:

She spends the first arc struggling because she's shoved into a role because of the laws of the land and the mask her father keeps up (he's actually a hyper-competent assassin, but retired after he fell in love with and married his mark, Shuurei's mother, who then died, and now he must play an idiot to hide that he was the assassin not just to protect himself, but to hide Shuurei from her mother's family who frankly have no regard for human lives).

Then she's thrown into the harem because the emperor is a lazy ass and they hope her work ethics and passion for politics would influence him. Turns out he's also playing a role, in the hopes that it would force his exiled older brother back to the throne. Well, bro tells the emperor to cut it out and Shuurei leaves the harem, but everyone who watched her work (and weren't chauvinistic pigs) became impressed, and then the emperor decided to allow women to take the official exams (using the ones impressed by Shuurei in the voting process).

It's THEN that the story really takes off. Shuurei basically have to face crap (literally, sometimes, as she, along with other male official, ends up scrubbing lavatories as punishment), and the pressure of being the first female official ever in a country that just about got out of a civil war, still worries about its emperor's work ethics, and is both corrupt, splintered and fucked in every way possible without being in open crisis.

There's also a lot of sabotage and other officials trying to teach Shuurei her place, but she still prevails because being a politician is her life's dream damn it!

Do she get help from male officials sometimes? Well, yeah, she's the only woman who was prepared to take the exams the same year that the law was changed, and sometimes experience goes a long way.

Do she sometimes help male officials? Quite a lot. In fact, too many times to count. She IS the main character after all.

Is she sometimes wrong? Do she have any human flaws? Yes to both. Sometimes to serious effects, sometimes to hilarious effects. She's not perfect, even when she tries very hard to be (and at times, she comes damn close, and at other times it is sheer determination that sees her through).

Is she an action girl? No. There are other girls and women being assassins, and one woman controls the underworld of an entire district (and is one of Shuurei's biggest supporters), but Shuurei is a politician through and through, she's better at planning and directing attacks.

Basically, Saiunkoku is not an action series, battles are glossed over, it is the politics that are important, and Shuurei excels and revels in it. (And leaves a string of broken hearts behind her because she doesn't have time for love when taxes must be counted and land disputes solved. It is a Reverse Harem after all and is not completely immune to the genre trappings.)

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

Your custom title/avatar/signature combo strongly supports my theory that you are male. While female anime watchers generally have just as terrible tastes as male ones do, they do not tend to like sexualizations of underaged girls (lolis). I remain unconvinced that you are actually female.

I don't freaking believe this! My avatar/sig doesn't "strongly support" CRAP except that I like Aria and Kinji as a couple. And lolis are not always underage; Aria is sixteen and I like loli characters because I identify with them because I'm a tiny but adult female who looks like a loli character and knows their pain of what it's like to be treated as a child when you're not one.

*serious rage*

And you take it a step further mentioning "terrible taste".

I haven't been this insulted since.........rawr, can't even remember.....

So you can't like lolicon if you are female. wtf.

WTF indeed.

I know girls that like loli

Me too! Besides me, another otaku girl in my Dollfie club loves it. Well, she likes hentai too...but I don't....XD
*Anyway, girls like cute things.
*Lolis are cute. They are very sweet and doll-like in appearance, especially when they dress in elaborate outfits. Nobody bats an eye if a girl is admiring a doll in a dress. You really think "dolled-up" loli anime characters look any different to us? Hardly!
*Girls can like lolis just fine, the same way they like dolls, puppies, and little children.

[DonQuigleone]

I'm not sure if the old adage: "The internet: Where the women are men, the men are 10 year old boys, and the children are FBI agents" is really true anymore.

I will say I'm a man, and I love it.

I'm not an old man like my avatar though. He's just crazy cool.

But anyway, my definition of a work that has reasonably good depictions of females:

a) the girls are like real life girls.
b) the girls talk to one another about things beside men.
c) If it's romantic, the girls get as much out of the relationship as the guy does, but is not dependent on him.

I can't think of many rules to add over that. Simple is best.