(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

And who knows, maybe 80 years ago, Frieren finished off the demon king while the melee guarded her while her attention was solely on the demon king.

I would say it was the other way around. Frieren's special spell doesn't feel like a finishing move. Note it didn't do any critical damage to Fern. It looks like some sort of restraining spell. It held Fern onto the wall and kept her up there while the spell was active. That considering, I think she might have used this spell to restrain the Demon King for a moment, giving Himmel the chance to deliver the critical hit.

[Twi]

It looked like a Telekinetic sledgehammer from my point of view. No arms. No staff. Glare hard enough that you basically telekinetically slam her into a wall hard enough that it shatters her staff to pieces and craters it while still keeping them all pinned into place and trying to crush her to death. It's probably a really primitive form of magic since Fern doesn't even recognize it as a spell.

[frubam]

Haha, yeah you all are right. I guess I was too busy with my mouth agape at the spectacular animation effects that I forgot about that . The point of her saying it was 80 years ago before she used that move coinciding with the Demon King's defeat also makes sense, it prob was her unleashing her special ability at that time. Must've been a magnificent fight, though I think if I see it, I'd rather it be a fully hero party focused movie or series(separate from this one) that has the fight.

Speaking of which, theres a preview of ep 27... how many episodes is this scheduled to be?

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by frubam

Haha, yeah you all are right. I guess I was too busy with my mouth agape at the spectacular animation effects that I forgot about that . The point of her saying it was 80 years ago before she used that move coinciding with the Demon King's defeat also makes sense, it prob was her unleashing her special ability at that time. Must've been a magnificent fight, though I think if I see it, I'd rather it be a fully hero party focused movie or series(separate from this one) that has the fight.

Speaking of which, theres a preview of ep 27... how many episodes is this scheduled to be?

If I'm correct I believe it's 28 episodes. So, should be a couple more to go. Can't wait to see how they choose to leave the show for the time being.

That must have been some wild fight against the Demon King. Makes me wonder when they would even want to show off this kind of flashback...Oh well. Pretty sure we won't see it in the next couple episodes anyways . Something to think on anyways.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Twi

It looked like a Telekinetic sledgehammer from my point of view. No arms. No staff. Glare hard enough that you basically telekinetically slam her into a wall hard enough that it shatters her staff to pieces and craters it while still keeping them all pinned into place and trying to crush her to death. It's probably a really primitive form of magic since Fern doesn't even recognize it as a spell.

Fern didn't recognize it as a spell because she couldn't sense it with her mana detection. But we've already seen a kind of magic that can not be detected by mana detection. Being undetectable is one of the main properties of curses, a special kind of magic used by demons and monsters. This spell must be something similar to a curse.

That been said, I still think this isn't an offensive spell. It looked really cool but the damage inflicted on Fern was rather minimal. I don't think it could do much to a powerful demon in terms of damage. I think it's supposed to be a form of restraining magic, meant to immobilize or slow down a target.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Fern didn't recognize it as a spell because she couldn't sense it with her mana detection. But we've already seen a kind of magic that can not be detected by mana detection. Being undetectable is one of the main properties of curses, a special kind of magic used by demons and monsters. This spell must be something similar to a curse.

If it was a curse then Frieren wouldn't be able to detect her own spell either.

[ryllharu]

While the visual spectacle is very nice, Ubel is the high point of this episode and test as a whole. Her part of this segment feels much more in line with the rest of the series as a whole, specifically the types of discussions Frieren has had over the decade of mentoring Fern.

Ubel's flashbacks also reveal quite a bit concerning the obnoxious arrogance and gatekeeping that the Mage Association does with all exams. It also reeks of elitism. If these are the best and brightest mages on the continent, they certainly don't seem to understand it as well as they claim to.

Ubel simply understands magic on a more fundamental level than most of the cast. It's all about visualization first, then the mechanics behind it fulfill it come after (in contrast, Fern was taught the mechanics first in methodical detail). Ubel just ignores the mechanics. The foundation of her magic is an endearing core memory for her. Her understanding of magic is even consistent with her other skill of empathizing with another and then taking their magic specialty. She believes that once she can understand another mage (through her own impenetrable metrics too), she'll inherently know their trademark spell, and then she simply does.

The magic association members are crippling themselves and their examinees with predilections, intentionally or otherwise. The flashback showed that they frequently plan the 2nd test to be nearly impossible to pass. I don't really buy their excuse that, "a First-Class mage should be capable of overcoming these challenges" when the association have populated themselves with extreme specialists and then design tests around those exact areas of expertise and even add qualifiers to swing the tests against the examinees.

The way they set up that previous 2nd round test, Ubel was the probably one who could ever have passed it. Richter would have, or Kanne in the same way she defeated Richter in the previous test...except they'd have been disqualified by the association with the offensive spell limits the association placed "for safety." They wouldn't have been able to use such large spells. The test was expressly designed to fail everyone by limiting their ability to the level that the cloak would always stop the spell, reinforced by the seeded idea that his cloak stops every spell so there wouldn't be any risk to his life.

It's a great moment that Sense utterly fails to comprehend that Ubel could cut anything. Sense lost from the moment that Ubel was even called to her office. Sense then fails to learn anything from the event by justifying it to herself that Ubel is simply crazy and a sociopath.

And yeah, Sense can talk about how she's a pacifist all she wants and how the test should be easy if they all cooperated, but the Association designed this test to fail as many examinees as possible and the proof is Sense herself tagging along. Her thoughts showed more than enough that she was the contingency plan in case they were doing fairly well, and combining her offensive abilities with her skill at hiding being as strong as Fern's means she was meant to ambush mages quite deliberately.

[deadite]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

While the visual spectacle is very nice, Ubel is the high point of this episode and test as a whole. Her part of this segment feels much more in line with the rest of the series as a whole, specifically the types of discussions Frieren has had over the decade of mentoring Fern.

Ubel's flashbacks also reveal quite a bit concerning the obnoxious arrogance and gatekeeping that the Mage Association does with all exams. It also reeks of elitism. If these are the best and brightest mages on the continent, they certainly don't seem to understand it as well as they claim to.

Ubel simply understands magic on a more fundamental level than most of the cast. It's all about visualization first, then the mechanics behind it fulfill it come after (in contrast, Fern was taught the mechanics first in methodical detail). Ubel just ignores the mechanics. The foundation of her magic is an endearing core memory for her. Her understanding of magic is even consistent with her other skill of empathizing with another and then taking their magic specialty. She believes that once she can understand another mage (through her own impenetrable metrics too), she'll inherently know their trademark spell, and then she simply does.

The magic association members are crippling themselves and their examinees with predilections, intentionally or otherwise. The flashback showed that they frequently plan the 2nd test to be nearly impossible to pass. I don't really buy their excuse that, "a First-Class mage should be capable of overcoming these challenges" when the association have populated themselves with extreme specialists and then design tests around those exact areas of expertise and even add qualifiers to swing the tests against the examinees.

The way they set up that previous 2nd round test, Ubel was the probably one who could ever have passed it. Richter would have, or Kanne in the same way she defeated Richter in the previous test...except they'd have been disqualified by the association with the offensive spell limits the association placed "for safety." They wouldn't have been able to use such large spells. The test was expressly designed to fail everyone by limiting their ability to the level that the cloak would always stop the spell, reinforced by the seeded idea that his cloak stops every spell so there wouldn't be any risk to his life.

It's a great moment that Sense utterly fails to comprehend that Ubel could cut anything. Sense lost from the moment that Ubel was even called to her office. Sense then fails to learn anything from the event by justifying it to herself that Ubel is simply crazy and a sociopath.

And yeah, Sense can talk about how she's a pacifist all she wants and how the test should be easy if they all cooperated, but the Association designed this test to fail as many examinees as possible and the proof is Sense herself tagging along. Her thoughts showed more than enough that she was the contingency plan in case they were doing fairly well, and combining her offensive abilities with her skill at hiding being as strong as Fern's means she was meant to ambush mages quite deliberately.

So many bad takes. Ubel IS messed up. Her first meeting with Kraft is proof enough.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Ubel simply understands magic on a more fundamental level than most of the cast. It's all about visualization first, then the mechanics behind it fulfill it come after (in contrast, Fern was taught the mechanics first in methodical detail). Ubel just ignores the mechanics. The foundation of her magic is an endearing core memory for her. Her understanding of magic is even consistent with her other skill of empathizing with another and then taking their magic specialty. She believes that once she can understand another mage (through her own impenetrable metrics too), she'll inherently know their trademark spell, and then she simply does.

It doesn't work like that. You can only achieve what you know you can do. That's why mages who can sense mana, knew the first class mage's cloak was covered with powerful defensive magic and knew they could not penetrate it. Ubel succeeded, not because she told herself she could do it. Visualization isn't that simple. She succeeded because she's literally crazy and her mind is strongly attached to certain stuff (like clothes and hair, because her sister was a seamstress). But it's not like there are no limits for her. She's unable to cut a basic defensive barrier, and there probably are other things she can not cut (I bet she can not cut metal, for example). The things she can cut and can't cut are fixed in her mind and she can't change this at will. If she could, she could force herself to cut the basic defensive barrier, but she can't do it. Despite her insanity, her visualization follows a hard logic. It's just that this logic is a little different form the norm.

She succeeded against Sense because Sense was unlucky her main spell falls right into Ubel's strike zone. Hair is meant to be cut. But Ubel couldn't defeat Wirbel, and she probably would not beat Denken either. And I think Fern would totally destroy her.

It's a great moment that Sense utterly fails to comprehend that Ubel could cut anything.

Except it's already confirmed she can not. There are things she can cut and things she can not cut, and she can't change this at will.

her skill at hiding being as strong as Fern

In her dreams. The only clone Methode could no sense was Fern's clone, which forced Methode to go look for it on her own. Ubel doesn't even compare.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

There are things she can cut and things she can not cut, and she can't change this at will.

You're missing the point. That's exactly why it works, and why the Magic Association is too dumbfounded about it to recognize that they don't understand magic as well as they think they do.

No different from Frieren blasting apart the "unbreakable" barrier in the first exam.

And no different from Frieren telling Fern you only need basic spells to defeat any modern mage.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

In her dreams. The only clone Methode could no sense was Fern's clone, which forced Methode to go look for it on her own. Ubel doesn't even compare.

Reading comprehension. That paragraph is about Sense. I'm not even going to get into Methode having Yet Another proficiency that resolves some additional plot hole. Sense's clone was frequently mentioned as being hard to detect. Not as bad as Fern is, but Fern's proficiency was established from episode 1.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That been said, I still think this isn't an offensive spell. It looked really cool but the damage inflicted on Fern was rather minimal. I don't think it could do much to a powerful demon in terms of damage. I think it's supposed to be a form of restraining magic, meant to immobilize or slow down a target.

My head cannon is that in the battle against the Demon King, Frieren used this special ability to constrain the Demon King for long enough for Himmel to finish him off.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The fights in the manga are extremely brief, lasting only a few pages if not outright happening off-panel. The anime expanded on a lot.

Battles that would take several chapters of a typical hack-n-slash shonen manga are often covered by a panel or two in this manga and the anime tends to follow that pattern. Indeed there are a number of times where only the aftermath of a fight is shown, a dead monster and nothing else because it's what happens after that's important, not the battle itself.

Saying that, when Madhouse rolls up their sleeves and starts laying down the (digital) ink in earnest we are served a treat, as in this episode.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You're missing the point. That's exactly why it works, and why the Magic Association is too dumbfounded about it to recognize that they don't understand magic as well as they think they do.

I don't think they are dumbfounded. Sense understood pretty well how Ubel's visualization works. And it's true that Ubel can do this because she's touched in the head. It's clear from her first appearance that Ubel is not completely sane.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

No different from Frieren blasting apart the "unbreakable" barrier in the first exam.

No that's different. This was withing Frieren't capabilities. The proctors didn't know because they didn't know Frieren's identity.

Frieren did encounter a barrier that was supposed to be unbreakable in the past. Can't go into spoilers but suffice to say, it was a pretty different experience compared to breaking Serie's barrier.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

And no different from Frieren telling Fern you only need basic spells to defeat any modern mage.

Fern is told to use basic magic because it plays to her strengths. Zoltraak is the quickest spell to cast, and Fern is the fastest spell-caster. It's a match made in heaven.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think they are dumbfounded. Sense understood pretty well how Ubel's visualization works. And it's true that Ubel can do this because she's touched in the head. It's clear from her first appearance that Ubel is not completely sane.

You're trusting one character's assessment on her sanity. The same one who couldn't understand how Ubel cut an invincible defensive cloak.

Sense is extrapolating to justify why her understanding of magic is not flawed. There is no evidence that she's correct, only evidence that Ubel can do exactly what she says she can do.

Ubel's first appearance simply showed she had no moral code. Not whether or not she is actually insane like Sense postulates.

Ubel's favorite spell is ALSO basic magic.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

If these are the best and brightest mages on the continent, they certainly don't seem to understand it as well as they claim to.

Ubel simply understands magic on a more fundamental level than most of the cast.

Ubel is simply the kind of genius who does impossible stuff simply because she doesn't know it's impossible, she doesn't have any deeper understanding of magic compared to anyone else. In terms of visualisation, Ubel simply sees the world differently than most people.

That said, the incident with Burg and Sense does highlight a potential flaw in modern magic, the focus on enchanting/manipulating physical matter.

It's perfectly understandable why it developed this way, it's easier to visualise something tangible, which makes it easier to standerdize and teach. And when you get really good at it like Sense, the versatility is incredible.

But that's a double edged sword, because it's also easy for your opponent to visualise using their magic against that same mattter you're using. With the right spell and right visualisation, compatability could let them pull off crazy stunts like Ubel.

This is in sharp contrast to stuff like what Frieren showed, which is magic that can't even be recognised as such because it works off concepts that can't even be imagined by the enemy.

Which is better just depends on the situation.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You're missing the point. That's exactly why it works, and why the Magic Association is too dumbfounded about it to recognize that they don't understand magic as well as they think they do.

Nah, they understand it perfectly well. If anything has dumbfounded them, it's how crazy Ubel is to pull it off.

But that has no real bearing on magic in general, because Ubel is such an outlier. No one else can go through the flaw in their spells like she can.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You're trusting one character's assessment on her sanity. The same one who couldn't understand how Ubel cut an invincible defensive cloak.

Sense is extrapolating to justify why her understanding of magic is not flawed. There is no evidence that she's correct, only evidence that Ubel can do exactly what she says she can do.

Ubel's first appearance simply showed she had no moral code. Not whether or not she is actually insane like Sense postulates.

Ubel's favorite spell is ALSO basic magic.

You're ignoring everything the story has told us about how magic works simply to push a narrative about Ubel and the Association.

[Decel]

From my understanding, Sense totally understands how Ubel manages what she does. It's been played out with previous scenes and -literally her name- that Sense's strength is, from my point of view, to acutely read/understand the magic/mages.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You're trusting one character's assessment on her sanity. The same one who couldn't understand how Ubel cut an invincible defensive cloak.

Again, I think she understood pretty well how Ubel did it.

Sense is extrapolating to justify why her understanding of magic is not flawed. There is no evidence that she's correct, only evidence that Ubel can do exactly what she says she can do.

Her understanding of magic is the same understanding that everyone has, including Frieren. We have no basis to doubt it. The existence of an exception doesn't invalidate the rule.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Ubel's favorite spell is ALSO basic magic.

Basic magic is literally called basic magic. Ubel's spell is not basic magic.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You're trusting one character's assessment on her sanity. The same one who couldn't understand how Ubel cut an invincible defensive cloak.

Sense is extrapolating to justify why her understanding of magic is not flawed. There is no evidence that she's correct, only evidence that Ubel can do exactly what she says she can do.

Ubel's first appearance simply showed she had no moral code. Not whether or not she is actually insane like Sense postulates.

Ubel's favorite spell is ALSO basic magic.

Sense understood perfectly well after Ubel answered her.

It's also not just one character. Land came to the same conclusion that Ubel operates based on intuition instead of intellect.

[kari-no-sugata II]

I suspect that Ubel is largely self-taught since she tends to approach things more from the perspective of a normal human compared to a mage.

It was explained that magic works a bit like rock-paper-scissor in that different spells have different strengths and weaknesses relative to each other. Due to her fascination with scissors, Ubel is able to view things as "paper" when a normal person would see something as "paper" (or in general, something normal scissors could cut) even if a typical mage would see it as "rock".

I suspect she has more difficulty cutting things scissors normally can't cut. She can certainly cut trees as we've seen but it might be harder for her than cutting (say) a thick pile of cloth.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I suspect she has more difficulty cutting things scissors normally can't cut.

I have that impression too. Maybe not just scissors but cutting hand tools in general. If something looks like it can be cut by a cutting hand tool (scissors, knives, swords, axes), she will cut it. But if it looks like it can not be cut by cutting tools, she won't be able to cut them. That's why she only scratched the rock but didn't truly cut through them. And I bet she can't cut metal at all.