2010-05-23, 22:35 | Link #10561 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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1. I actually don't care what Erika is. 2. I don't feel like going on my other computer to check. 3. I am studying for finals and only posting on here due to a self-mandated break. 4. I have a migraine. 5. If I remember correctly each character has an alive and dead tip and the tip I am speaking of should be a dead tip for Erika, then again I admit that I could be wrong. So, I am not sure if you checked the tip I am speaking of. 6. After posting reasons 2-5 I still do not care what Erika is. |
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2010-05-23, 22:44 | Link #10562 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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It's just like the Shkannon theories. They've been around since EP2 or so... hell, there's probably at least a handful of people who thought they must be the same person just by examining the artwork. So you can say the theory has been out there. (For my claim to fame, I declared that Jessica was dressing up as Beatrice the first time I got a good picture of Beatrice and Jessica in the tips. Which was near the end of EP1 or so... :3 ... absolutely no clues for that at that point but hey, I had the theory. 8) ) But Erika'ss non-existance theory suddenly became serious once the twist at the end of EP6 was introduced. I don't think EP5 and 6 should be causing us to totally revamp our theories, especially in a way that causes massive problems, such as "If she's not real then what happens to the detective viewpoint?" By the way, I was looking at the End roll for EP6 and Erika's name is listed with no 'result.' http://umineco.info/?%E7%AC%AC%E5%85...96%87%E7%AB%A0 I thought maybe the end roll would say something like it did for Ange at EP4. But it's as if she's being treated as a meta-character or like Amakusa; not relevant to the gameboard. Mind you her actual death was on the meta level anyways... EDIT: Oh also, I remember reading the original Erika's execute TIPs and the great revelation with her is that she was theorized to have been caught up in the Rokkenjima Explosion Incident. The only time I had heard of her 'body washing ashore dead' was on forum postings. I thought that that was just a theory or something. I don't ever remember any evidence from the game that that was what happened... Here's her normal and execute TIPs from umineco.info (scroll up a few millimetres): http://umineco.info/?%E7%AC%AC%E5%85.../TIPS#yc88f1ea |
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2010-05-24, 00:32 | Link #10564 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Still talking about whether Erika existed on Rokkenjima in EP6 or not?
Red texts: "Erika is a name which can be used by the person only". No Erika-ball throwing around I guess, unless you provides answer how someone on Rokkenjima could suddenly say he or she was Erika when character tips said Erika fell off from the cruise ship Eternal Maid II on 4 th Oct, 1986. --------------------------------- BTW, the manga EP1 Ch 21 seemed to confirm there was really a letter in the parlor when Battler's group searched for Maria. Any thoughts on that?
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2010-05-24, 00:35 | Link #10565 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Kanon is not "Kanon's" real name. Yet "only the person himself" can claim it. Who is the person himself? The guy who uses the name? The guy everyone calls by the name? It's only one person, but exactly who it is, that's less clear (hence Shkanon etc.). |
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2010-05-24, 00:36 | Link #10566 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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To be exact it's.
But people tell me that an "actual person" is a vague statement and that as long as somebody represents the "body of Erika" that doesn't matter. Personally I think this should be taken literally, because it seems to be a red intended to deny Erika's theory about Kanon having more than one name, but not many agree.
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2010-05-24, 00:43 | Link #10567 |
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Well, the flaw there in the "actual people" thing is that there is no "actual person" named Kanon. He has a name (if he exists at all, anyway), and it isn't Kanon. So in that case "the actual person" refers to a person whose name is not Kanon. The argument then follows that "Battler" or "Erika" is also permitted to refer to a person not initially contemplated as Ushiromiya Battler or Furudo Erika.
Of course, it can also mean exactly what it says it means. But in Kanon's case it doesn't. |
2010-05-24, 01:15 | Link #10568 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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The red is not is not saying that it refers to an actual person named Kanon. It's saying something completely different. To rephrase it the name Kanon can only refer to the actual person referred to with that name.
It's the same as the red before only without the a different person cannot claim his name. If your assuming that Kanon is not the same as a different person like with shkanon than only the person referred to with the name Kanon can enter Battler's room. That's a no brainer.
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2010-05-24, 01:23 | Link #10569 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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The point is more, names and bodies are disassociated. Battler could say that Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu, but not that he was, even though he's Battler. This was speculated to mean that there are two Battlers, which means "Ushiromiya Battler" applies specifically in-context to whoever you happen to be talking about.
Kanon is an exception to the malleability of rules. Whoever he is, only he can claim the name Kanon. But that rule is a special case explicitly applied to him. The consequence of that is that, logically, other names are not as fixed. At least, that would be the theory, and it's a theory most prevalent ideas right now use. It could be wrong, but a solution not using it is tricky, and Beatrice is the one who brought this to the table in the first place, so it isn't wild speculation. |
2010-05-24, 03:55 | Link #10570 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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In respect to Natsuhi's death and certainty, it's either Battler lying to Erika that he doesn't know to manipulate her, or Lambda telling her the truth because she is the Witch of Certainty anyway. In any other explanation, Erika has to see herself on the board and hear other people call her Erika if her perspective is impartial and she is the detective. That clearly doesn't work very well. Though, there is one loophole but going through it results in a worse situation: Any scene that is narrated by Battler is given from his impartial detective perspective. Any scene that is not narrated by Battler that refers to him in third person isn't, even if he is present in it. Great swathes of text become suspect if this is to be accepted. There is only one real problem with a No-Piece-Erika explanation which somehow doesn't get addressed in all the questions. Namely, this: At different points in the text, Erika has a location referred to in red. If no Piece-Erika that gives Meta-Erika an excuse to be in the story ever exists, this name has to refer to Meta-Erika, who cannot have a location since she's not on the board, or to someone who is distinct from Meta-Erika which we, and Meta-Erika, see as Piece-Erika. That name refers to 'actual person', which means that whatever it is it's the same person. They're free to engage in activities which Meta-Erika accepts as her own, but they have to be an 'actual person', i.e. the same one in both Ep5 and Ep6, which I'm not sure works (or doesn't) -- and won't be until Ep6 is properly translated.
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2010-05-24, 10:48 | Link #10571 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Well, in EP5 I remembered Erika has introduced herself to the people on Rokkenjima, so who can this "Erika" be if Erika-ball was thrown around?
And when other people used "Erika", who this Erika was? And for what reason people started referring that person as Erika but not the initial person?
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2010-05-24, 14:01 | Link #10572 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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You know with these names, is it possible to switch around the Japanese kanji to make another name? Like i know in Shannon/Kanon's name has the 'Non' (or whatever it is in Japanese), is it possible to switch around for other names? Erika (in Japanese) can be played around into another set of words :s?
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2010-05-24, 17:04 | Link #10573 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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It's even more straightforward than Shkanon, in my mind. |
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2010-05-24, 17:05 | Link #10574 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Battler also wasn't in control of his own piece all the way up until the confession scene, for that matter.
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2010-05-24, 17:12 | Link #10575 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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2010-05-24, 17:19 | Link #10576 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Well Oliver I only really have one question about your theory. Battler basically boycotted almost all of episode 5 and he had to be shown the whole game over again to keep up. With your theory can't the entire game just be a fabrication to deceive both Battler and Erika?
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2010-05-24, 17:41 | Link #10577 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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So unless they have a particular plan to milk him for enough drama to make it worth it, that bit probably did happen as described -- Bern was having fun kicking Natsuhi and Lambda was happy Bern still sticks around for this.
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2010-05-24, 17:50 | Link #10579 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Well, Shkanon can give a reason for why every individual scene is shown the way it is. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to follow all of the ghost-Erika logic, but does it actually explain why those scenes are fake, and how they are allowed to be fake in the ways that they are?
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2010-05-24, 17:55 | Link #10580 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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That aside, it seems to trip the rest of us up, so... I mean, honestly? Honestly? Erika is the most ridiculous character on the board (magic or "real") since Beatrice herself. And she serves an almost identical narrative function (cruel antagonist who throws red text around and tries to make out someone as a suspect). |
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