Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Var]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

Apparently it would be highly unwise of me to comment further on this topic if I wish to remain in good standing here.

No,no. Your opinion is as valid as mine. I am after all stating my opinion. Feel free to counter what I said, that is after all what a discussion is about.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Var

No,no. Your opinion is as valid as mine. I am after all stating my opinion. Feel free to counter what I said, that is after all what a discussion is about.

No, it's all right. I'm just tired of battling on the internet about various topics. Takes too much of my time up. I just state my case and get the hell out. And it's not that I can't argue; I can, actually. Very well. It's just typing up those long posts is something I hate doing, and only really worth it to do the first one and respond in short thereafter.

I just watched Episode 23. Spinning up 24 & 25 right now.

After just that episode, my opinion has changed *very* slightly, and I don't agree with the vast majority of what you said, but I can fully understand why you and others may have that opinion.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I still don't know who to root for in CG, even after 22 episodes. It's so hard to decide who I would side with. I know for damn sure it wouldn't be the Black Knights.

When in doubt cheer for the cat. You can't go wrong with that. The writers didn't put Arthur there for no reason. The Cat has a huge role in the upcoming series.

Right now I'm kinda leaning towards Suzaku, but... I hear after Zero kills... Um... You know... in episode 23, that Suzaku basically becomes totally set on vengeance and no longer working towards finding a way to fix the problems at hand as he was before.

Well you know it's kinda difficult when the only person who accepts and supports your ideal gets killed.

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

When in doubt cheer for the cat. You can't go wrong with that. The writers didn't put Arthur there for no reason. The Cat has a huge role in the upcoming series.

Ah, the cat. ^_^

He really does care for Suzaku.

Well you know it's kinda difficult when the only person who accepts and supports your ideal gets killed.

Yeah, that'd prolly send anyone over the edge.

[Ky-66]

Ah, the cat. ^_^

He really does care for Suzaku.

i think the cat was just trying to bite tamaki too, damn thing bit suzaku every episode and then suddenly it decides to save him... i think not./sarcasm lol

[Var]

Originally Posted by Ky-66

i think the cat was just trying to bite tamaki too, damn thing bit suzaku every episode and then suddenly it decides to save him... i think not./sarcasm lol

Well its obvious the cat is actually an extension of Suzaku's godly powers...

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Ky-66

i think the cat was just trying to bite tamaki too, damn thing bit suzaku every episode and then suddenly it decides to save him... i think not./sarcasm lol

Hey, cats work in mysterious ways. ^^

They are the closest thing we have to God on earth, anyway.

>_>

<_<

I'm sorry, I have no idea where that came from.

[Jaka]

At least Lelouch knows how to regret... at the start of CG series, after episode one. I was quite scared CG will turn out to be another Death Note type. Death Note's moral issue is so messed up that made me sick. When Lelouch gains his Geass, it hits comparison when Light gets the Death Note, thats why I was kinda hoping not to expect Lelouch killing everyone...

P.S.

I will create a new world.

We are allies of justice/I am Justice.

See any links anyone

[Var]

Originally Posted by Jaka

At least Lelouch knows how to regret... at the start of CG series, after episode one. I was quite scared CG will turn out to be another Death Note type. Death Note's moral issue is so messed up that made me sick. When Lelouch gains his Geass, it hits comparison when Light gets the Death Note, thats why I was kinda hoping not to expect Lelouch killing everyone...

P.S.



See any links anyone

Except... Lelouch has a soul! He has no intention of killing everyone as that would not make Nunally happy... though she's probably already shocked with Euphie's death. He is in such a bad position, he has to kill those who Nunally loves in order to make the world for Nunally... contradiction ftl.

[Juvyniled]

Congratulations on turning the 'holier-than-thou' phrase into a common forum expression. Almost as well put as Bush's weapon's of mass destruction.

The problem with Suzaku is not so much that he is egotistical or that he is on a 'moral high horse' (yet another 'pleasant' expression); he is in denial. Yes that's right, denial. He believes that he made the wrong decision when he murdered his father, so that only leads him to believe that his current course of actions is correct (if not better than what he had done to his father). He is a simple-minded character; if this is wrong, then that has to be right. There's no complexity of morals or feelings of supremacy over another character, it's just what he has defined to be right and wrong (whether you believe it is right or wrong is a judgment on your part).

Personally, it doesn't appear as though Suzaku is trying to create the sense of 'equality' invoked by Communism. It's more of an equality of opportunity. However, he is not the one who will create it; it is simply not within his capacity to do so. But... his actions could very well lead to a person who could produce such a movement towards that equality of opportunity.

The problem with this scenario is, it's not going to happen right now or even possibly for a very long period of time. So once again, one of the very important arguments definining the most important characteristics of Suzaku and Lelouch's respective goals is this: time. Do you risk it all to get what you want now, or do you endure the long hardships and wait to integrate yourself in that society.

Lelouch is by no means wrong; it is simply a matter of differences in methodology. But it's not just ideals that play a big part in this, there's also the motivation of each of the characters. The small picture is Japanese independence, but the big picture is the aftermath of Lelouch's conflict with his father and the Britannian empire. Why? Lelouch possesses a greater capability to alter the outcome of the future due to his power of Geass. That alone exceeds anything else (except maybe [sarcasm]Nina's bomb[/sarcasm]) that factors into this (even Suzaku's abnormal reflexes).

Originally Posted by Var

Except... Lelouch has a soul! He has no intention of killing everyone as that would not make Nunally happy... though she's probably already shocked with Euphie's death. He is in such a bad position, he has to kill those who Nunally loves in order to make the world for Nunally... contradiction ftl.

Yes, but he isn't so much concerned with the people that suffer as a result of his actions as well.

[Var]

The problem with Suzaku's ideal isn't only time. He became a knight, great that makes him important and hard to remove. With that success, however, do you think that Britannians will allow for more '11's to enter their world and steal the limelight? Of course not. Suzaku can set all the examples he wants, but if he doesn't change the very basis of society then nothing will change. I don't think it is only time but near impossible hurdles as well, for Suzaku's aspect that is.

As long as Pursists, racists, and a monarchy exist, Suzaku's goals are nigh impossible to accomplish.

Yes, but he isn't so much concerned with the people that suffer as a result of his actions as well.

I'd beg to differ. He knows that people will be hurt by his actions, he isn't stupid, but he also knows that he can't change that. No matter what approach he were to take he'd end up hurting people. In such a position the best thing to do is distance yourself so as to not get dragged down. Though he still does his best to protect those he cares for within the plans he makes.

[mist2123]

Originally Posted by Var

The problem with Suzaku's ideal isn't only time. He became a knight, great that makes him important and hard to remove. With that success, however, do you think that Britannians will allow for more '11's to enter their world and steal the limelight? Of course not. Suzaku can set all the examples he wants, but if he doesn't change the very basis of society then nothing will change. I don't think it is only time but near impossible hurdles as well, for Suzaku's aspect that is.

As long as Pursists, racists, and a monarchy exist, Suzaku's goals are nigh impossible to accomplish.

well said

[Juvyniled]

And there are sympathists as well. Compare this somewhat supremacist society to that of say totalitarianistic Germany. There is a huge difference, and supremacy could be extended so far beyond simply 'Britannians are superior.' Hell, at one time colonists in colonial America felt they were superior to slaves.

The point is, they're not enslaving the people of the conquered nations (surprisingly enough) and that fact itself will wreak havoc on their supremacist foundation far into the future (I'm not talking just a few decades). By integrating numbers into their society, Britannians are making them pivotal to maintaining these territories. The Britannians aren't massively populated as China is today; they cannot handle a major uprising. And they are JUST a major power within their world; there are other countries that they have to contend with for power as well. Eventually, Elevens will be bound to lobbying for greater rights.

Suzaku is not a leader. He does not have the potential to change society himself, but his actions could have motivated others (not so much anymore since his reputation got shot down when Euphemia went berserk).

[Var]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

And there are sympathists as well. Compare this somewhat supremacist society to that of say totalitarianistic Germany. There is a huge difference, and supremacy could be extended so far beyond simply 'Britannians are superior.' Hell, at one time colonists in colonial America felt they were superior to slaves.

The point is, they're not enslaving the people of the conquered nations (surprisingly enough) and that fact itself will wreak havoc on their supremacist foundation far into the future (I'm not talking just a few decades). By integrating numbers into their society, Britannians are making them pivotal to maintaining these territories. The Britannians aren't massively populated as China is today; they cannot handle a major uprising. And they are JUST a major power within their world; there are other countries that they have to contend with for power as well. Eventually, Elevens will be bound to lobbying for greater rights.

The integration of numbers into the nobility or higher positions is a political move. It is a glimmer of hope that will always be out of reach but will keep the masses calm. This makes them valuable but they are still replaceable, as Britannia can easily make people disappear, hell it can have an important number be assassinated by 'terrorists' and turn a nation on its would-be liberators. We also can't say how populated the actual Britannian 'race' is, since we don't know the bounds of the mother land.

I'd dare say some of the sections of Britannian control seem to be oppressed, and Japan doesn't seem all that well off either. They might not be enslaved but they are oppressed in varying degrees.

If any nation tries to lobby for rights they will be crushed. Those who lobby need support in high places which can be removed without a seconds thought by an empire such as this. Britannia is playing the game wisely if anything.

[Blue_Mercy]

My problem with Suzaku never was the fact that he wanted to change Britannia from within. I knew that was never going to work, even if the S.A.Z. had gone ahead it would have just been a way to control the Japanese. My problem was with his continuous speeches that he knew what justice was, and how the OoBK was simply satisfying themselves even after they rescued him from the trial and the hostages from the hotel jacking incident. Then he gave that speech after Shirley's dad's funeral, cursing the OoBK again. All the while being a murderer himself, after he experiences pain at the loss of Euphemia reverts back to how he really is even after his speeches.

[Ky-66]

My problem with Suzaku never was the fact that he wanted to change Britannia from within. I knew that was never going to work, even if the S.A.Z. had gone ahead it would have just been a way to control the Japanese. My problem was with his continuous speeches that he knew what justice was, and how the OoBK was simply satisfying themselves even after they rescued him from the trial and the hostages from the hotel jacking incident. Then he gave that speech after Shirley's dad's funeral, cursing the OoBK again. All the while being a murderer himself, after he experiences pain at the loss of Euphemia reverts back to how he really is even after his speeches.

i dont have a problem with his goals,(change from within is good too) just the way he tries to achieve them(peace and equality by serving in the military...nice one suzaku). Combine that with his speeches and hes just a hypocrite. Honestly I like him much better after 24/25 at least hes got motivation and doesnt kid himself anymore hes going out to the battlefield to kill people to get his way... sort of like lulu.

[4Tran]

Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are exactly angels. Lelouch is acting overwhelmingly for selfish purposes and most of the good he does is largely either incidental or done to further his own position. While he will act against his own interest in a few cases, it's mostly done to protect those close to him; actions that are consistent with how selfish people often act. The one exception to this was when Lelouch decided to accept Euphemia's offer.

Suzuka was largely acting for selfless reasons, but his naivety reduced most of efforts to uselessness. While I tend to like his character archetype more than Lelouch's, his inability to critically examine both his role and how his dreams can come into fruition hurt his character. The reduction of Suzaku's goal from an equitable peace to simple revenge is a further turn-off. However, in the latter, Lelouch has largely been acting purely as an enemy, so I think that Suzaku's desire to bring him down is largely justified.

At this point, the only truly admirable character is Cornelia.

Originally Posted by Ky-66

dont have a problem with his goals,(change from within is good too) just the way he tries to achieve them(peace and equality by serving in the military...nice one suzaku).

Actually, Suzaku's joining the Britannian military as a means to attain an equitable peace isn't altogether a bad idea. There's basically two ways to peacefully remove an occupying power - either convince them that it's a bad idea through a mass movement (i.e. Ghandi and India), or to do it through sheer political inertia (i.e. Canada and Australia). There aren't a whole lot of ways for Elevens to gain political power, but successful military service is definitely one of them. Charismatic leaders who gain enough political power through their military service to enact change are extremely common throughout history. The problem with Suzaku is that he had no plan for how to go about achieving any of that.

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

At this point, the only truly admirable character is Cornelia.

Cornelia lost my respect when she butchered the Saitama ghetto just to draw out Zero.

Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are exactly angels. Lelouch is acting overwhelmingly for selfish purposes and most of the good he does is largely either incidental or done to further his own position. While he will act against his own interest in a few cases, it's mostly done to protect those close to him; actions that are consistent with how selfish people often act. The one exception to this was when Lelouch decided to accept Euphemia's offer.

I'm not defending Lelouch but pretty much everyone's actions in the show have been selfish except for Euphemia, who is now on that beach with Clovis in the afterlife.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Cornelia lost my respect when she butchered the Saitama ghetto just to draw out Zero.

Saitama is just a more obviously wrong application of the tactics used by the Americans at Fallujah: trap the insurgents into a tight geographical area, and then annihilate everyone within it. While it's not a particularly nice thing to do, it's a solid military tactic. Given that the reason for such a harsh response was the death of her brother, I think that it's at least partially justifiable.

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

I'm not defending Lelouch but pretty much everyone's actions in the show have been selfish except for Euphemia, who is now on that beach with Clovis in the afterlife.

Lelouch has been pretty much the most selfish of the important characters in the entire show.

[mangastuff]

We can imagine Suzaku as a Black in the US around 170 years ago (20 years before the election-the end of the slavery-note that then the Black had support from some political actors already, and many Blacks were not treated as slave at that time), or an Indian in India 200 years ago. So without rebellions, if:

- More and much more Suzaku appear
- More and much more Euphie appear
- A/some huge impact(s) from inside/outside that urge the empire to change (for example: huge scientific/economic innovation, large-scale war with other nations)

Then in 30-50 years later, Suzaku may be able to see what he wants - a change in the way Britainia treat No. However, No are still No, and Britainian are still superior. But something similar to the "U.S Civil War" may occur, with the victory belongs to who-knows side.

If the pro-No wins, in 150-200 years later, maybe equality and/or independence will be gained.

The problem is, if Suzaku was a politician (like Gandhi of India), then people would admire him. But even if he climbes into a high ranked solder, most of the ppl who choose to fight peacefully cannot see him as their leader or part of the "initiators" as however you see, he is still a traitor who fire at his ppl (if you choose to change from within, normally it should be a peaceful way- which means - in the middle, but Suzaku acted too much pro-Britainian) I know Suzaku does not really want the fame so in this aspect, I feel pity for him.


Sadly, however you see, Lulu is still a murderer who acts mostly for his selfish cause

And Suzaku is a murderer and a traitor, and selfish in his own way

Foretunately, I dont care if some char is a murderer, a traitor or whatever. If I were a Japanese, I would do exactly what they did: support any side that I think is the best for me at one time. Lulu uses the Japanese, but they uses him as well so it's fine however I see.

If you want a protagonist as a hero char in an action anime, then Lulu may make you disappointed because he is too evil for you. But if you want a protagonist who is more human in a political/epic anime, I guess he may suit your taste.

Anyway, no Great King, Great Empiror, Great President, Great General. etc., i.e Great Hero in our human history was an innocent person. Because if you are too good, you die before you can reach the power. However, I believe Lulu is still too naive for a "Great" then