Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

It's actually a collection of things. But the point is Lelouch didn't want to live, either way. If he survived, the only way that would work is if it was entirely accidental and not his own intention. If he intended to live on after faking his death, that would in fact make Lelouch a worse person. That's really all I want to say.

You're missing the point. The reason he began Zero Requiem in the first place was because he felt he lost everything and everyone he held dear, so he wanted a way out. The precedent was already set with his attempt to seal himself inside the Sword of Akasha with his father.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by npal

He's not dead.

/flies away

I've been punked.

[Fireminer]

Who care if Lelouch alive? I mean, Sunrise won't make a sequel of Code Geass, so why bother?

[konart]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Wasn't Lelouch's plan to be christ 2.0 by "taking all sins and evil onto himself"?

That would certainly include C.C.'s "curse". I mean the way he was ready to sacrifice anything, wouldn't it be at least plausible that he volunteered to take C.C.'s code from her to free her? While it is true that he seemed to have lost his will to live, would he really ignore C.C.'s state?

Her final wish was the world where she could live with smile on her face. Not long awaited death (see the episode where Lulu "kills" Charles)

He fullfilled her wish as much as he could

[Kakurin]

Uh, seems like I kicked off more than I intended to, sorry.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

If he intended to live on after faking his death, that would in fact make Lelouch a worse person. That's really all I want to say.

That's my viewpoint, it would be quite inconsistent with his previous behaviour if he actively looked for a way out.

Originally Posted by azul120

You're missing the point. The reason he began Zero Requiem in the first place was because he felt he lost everything and everyone he held dear, so he wanted a way out. The precedent was already set with his attempt to seal himself inside the Sword of Akasha with his father.

In my opinion he did not simply just look for a way out. If that was the case, then he could have just committed suicide after stopping his father. He looked for a way out while trying to realize the ideal of a better / gentle world at the same time. Furthermore, I personally never had the feeling that Lelouch valued his life over his goals. If achieving his goals meant his death he would have done it even before he lost everything. As far as I remember, didn't he say from the very beginning "Only those who are prepared to get shot, are the ones who should be allowed to shoot" or something like that. But that's enough from my side... I think.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by SigUp

Uh, seems like I kicked off more than I intended to, sorry.


That's my viewpoint, it would be quite inconsistent with his previous behaviour if he actively looked for a way out.


In my opinion he did not simply just look for a way out. If that was the case, then he could have just committed suicide after stopping his father. He looked for a way out while trying to realize the ideal of a better / gentle world at the same time. Furthermore, I personally never had the feeling that Lelouch valued his life over his goals. If achieving his goals meant his death he would have done it even before he lost everything. As far as I remember, didn't he say from the very beginning "Only those who are prepared to get shot, are the ones who should be allowed to shoot" or something like that. But that's enough from my side... I think.

You're right that he never valued his life over his goals, but that never precluded the possibility of living on afterwards in his mind. Remember when he told his friends he would see them once again in Ashford (eps. 7 and 9)? And both times he tried to kill himself he was looking for a positive side benefit to recuse himself, in which regard he was kind of like Suzaku. Unfortunately he caused more death and destruction with said final plan in the process than he did with the rebellion, but the show doesn't show this as a bad thing.

Worse, the show's sense of morality is incredibly selective, where many characters get away with what they did.

[Kusaja]

And Suzaku or Euphemia would consider the rebellion to be a bad thing, far worse than their more peaceful alternatives.

Morality is a complex topic, a fully subjective issue and one which will never be rationalized or interpreted in the same way.

But you know what Lelouch's morality includes? Destruction as a prelude to creation.

S1, episode 23: At Least with Sorrow

Lelouch: Perhaps this is what I've longed for ever since that day: the destruction and loss of everything. That's right -- destruction always comes before creation, and for that goal, even my own conscience must be cast aside. The only path left to me is straight ahead. Now then...

R2, episode 1: The Day the Demon Awakens:

Lelouch: I am Zero. The one who will destroy the world and the one who'll recreate the world anew.

R2 episode 22: Emperor Lelouch

Lelouch: What trait is most important for governing the world?

Kaguya: It's pride. The pride of self-governance.

Lelouch: Good answer. You speak with wisdom, Lady Kaguya. However, I would submit a different answer.

Kaguya: Oh, and what would that answer be?

Lelouch: The will to destroy.

Kaguya: Destroy?

Lelouch: Destroy the world...and even oneself!

R2, episode 25: Re;

Lelouch: Yes. I... I destroy...the world...and create it....anew.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

And Suzaku or Euphemia would consider the rebellion to be a bad thing, far worse than their more peaceful alternatives.

Morality is a complex topic, a fully subjective issue and one which will never be rationalized or interpreted in the same way.

But you know what Lelouch's morality includes? Destruction as a prelude to creation.

S1, episode 23: At Least with Sorrow

Lelouch: Perhaps this is what I've longed for ever since that day: the destruction and loss of everything. That's right -- destruction always comes before creation, and for that goal, even my own conscience must be cast aside. The only path left to me is straight ahead. Now then...

R2, episode 1: The Day the Demon Awakens:

Lelouch: I am Zero. The one who will destroy the world and the one who'll recreate the world anew.

R2 episode 22: Emperor Lelouch

Lelouch: What trait is most important for governing the world?

Kaguya: It's pride. The pride of self-governance.

Lelouch: Good answer. You speak with wisdom, Lady Kaguya. However, I would submit a different answer.

Kaguya: Oh, and what would that answer be?

Lelouch: The will to destroy.

Kaguya: Destroy?

Lelouch: Destroy the world...and even oneself!

R2, episode 25: Re;

Lelouch: Yes. I... I destroy...the world...and create it....anew.

You're looking at it in a one-sided way. Lelouch's monologue was him temporarily giving in to madness in order to drown out his sorrow over Euphie.

Not to mention, more importantly, that Suzaku finally admitted he was a killer in Turn 20 after he let loose FLEIJA. There were no purely peaceful methods, especially given that Suzaku was a lackey to the Britannian Empire, whose oppressive nature practically necessitated extremities to be taken up against, else the hapless natives of its assimilated Number nations would suffer.

Lelouch, meanwhile, was in the process of freeing other nations and forming the UFN in season two, forming a legitimate resistance against Britannia. This was the more preferable alternative: save Nunnally, beat Charles and Schneizel, and sponsor a more just nation in its place. Lelouch alluded to this in Picture drama 9.xx.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

It's actually a collection of things. But the point is Lelouch didn't want to live, either way. If he survived, the only way that would work is if it was entirely accidental and not his own intention. If he intended to live on after faking his death, that would in fact make Lelouch a worse person. That's really all I want to say.

What if he never intended to survive, but survived anyway? Would that make Lelouch a worse person then?

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

What if he never intended to survive, but survived anyway? Would that make Lelouch a worse person then?

IMO, if Lelouch had survived the Zero Requiem, he would go into exile with C.C. somewhere in the Japanese countryside. Besides; when he died, we never saw his body being laid to rest in a grave site.

[hamazura]

i just rewatched this series... well the most touching moment for me is when arthur the cat standing in front of his master's grave

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

What if he never intended to survive, but survived anyway? Would that make Lelouch a worse person then?

That happens in Super Robot Wars game (Z1 or Z2). There he becomes Zero once again and I believe he supports the new Britannia alongside Suzaku, CC and Kallen (sorry, it's all in Japanese so I don't understand well)

i just rewatched this series... well the most touching moment for me is when arthur the cat standing in front of his master's grave

I'm surprised Arthur was there. I bet it would smell Suzaku if it was close. Or maybe Suzaku had a deep discussion with the cat and Lelouch used his Geass to make it visit the grave and made the death more convincing... Poor cat ;_;

[shinigami99]

Up to this point, I still don't know how Nunnally was somehow able to know exactly what Lelouch was doing just by touching him. It's like the writers were like, " Nunnally found out kthxbai".

Was Lelouch able to somehow condense his memories so that it could be transferred by touch right before his death? and if so, how? That's like introducing something completely new in the last few minutes there.

The only thing we saw that was remotely similar to that was Suzaku and C.C. in season 1 when by touching C.C., Suzaku was able to see into the mind of C.C. That would imply Lelouch MAY have a code. If it weren't for this issue, I would be more convinced of his death. That being said, this discussion has gone on for too long; if Sunrise wants to bring him back for a sequel, then they will do it. I mean, if Mu-La-Flaga came back, I don't see why Lelouch can't.

[MK-95-]

^Your wish has a chance at coming true. There's a Code Geass movie planned. If it features an original script (Possible) or a condensation of season 1 & 2, (Unlikely) then the Lelouch is alive theory is scrapped. But if it features a script that continues where R2 left off, then the chances of seeing an alive Lulu is high.

The "possible" above is because most movies for anime or manga usually feature an original script that isn't canon to the actual plot. So this can also apply to the Lelouch of the Rebellion movie.

The "unlikely" above is because there are already two OVAs that condense the R1 & R2 series into movie format. Not really a movie, but more like a recap with just a little extra material.

Still, since Akito is canon & ties in with both seasons, its possible that the movie can follow the same approach. For now, we'll just have to wait & see.

Source: ANN.

As you can see, that article is now two years old & there's still no word, so I'm thinking the reason why they are keeping it hush hush is because the chances of Lulu reappearing is possible. But don't get your hopes too high, the movie can just focus on Suzaku or any other member of the original cast.

Not only that, but the movie doesn't even need to take place after R2, it can be another interquel like Akito or even a prequel from Charles' PoV. The possibilities are plenty.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by shinigami99

Up to this point, I still don't know how Nunnally was somehow able to know exactly what Lelouch was doing just by touching him. It's like the writers were like, " Nunnally found out kthxbai".

Was Lelouch able to somehow condense his memories so that it could be transferred by touch right before his death? and if so, how? That's like introducing something completely new in the last few minutes there.

The only thing we saw that was remotely similar to that was Suzaku and C.C. in season 1 when by touching C.C., Suzaku was able to see into the mind of C.C. That would imply Lelouch MAY have a code. If it weren't for this issue, I would be more convinced of his death. That being said, this discussion has gone on for too long; if Sunrise wants to bring him back for a sequel, then they will do it. I mean, if Mu-La-Flaga came back, I don't see why Lelouch can't.

I don't remember the specifics, but Nunally was described in series as possessing the idealized ability of "being able to tell when someone is lying/see into their true heart" by touching their hand. Her scene with Lelouch in the final episode was just an application of that. The flashbacks don't need to be taken literally as a 'memory transfer' but just a visual representation of the sort of thoughts and emotions Nunally detected.

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

what made the last few episodes of Code Geass so freaking good was the fact that lelouch pretty much had made an enemy of everyone without everyone knowing why or how except for him and even the people watching probably couldn't make heads or tails out of it but watched anyway.
His plan was essentially the same as his brother (cant spell his name to save my life Schneizel or something like that) Kallen figured out his plan. Literally as he's dying during my first time watching this i'm just going nuts. You wonder almost what was going through his head. What made Lelouch so good was he was seemingly 3 steps ahead of everybody the entire series and at the end you feel weird watching a great character die.

[shinigami99]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't remember the specifics, but Nunally was described in series as possessing the idealized ability of "being able to tell when someone is lying/see into their true heart" by touching their hand. Her scene with Lelouch in the final episode was just an application of that. The flashbacks don't need to be taken literally as a 'memory transfer' but just a visual representation of the sort of thoughts and emotions Nunally detected.

I think I remember that, but I feel like that was way too much for her to "get". There's so much she didn't understand. Also, if it was indeed unique to her, this "ability" of Nunnally should have activated way back in season one when Lelouch was already going behind her back (and yes, she did touch him). Lelouch lied so much to her back then, and she never found out. The most she would have gotten was an intuition that maybe Lelouch was lying, but even so, she couldn't deduce the entire ZR plan, and it's intentions just at the end. Giving a code to Lelouch explains it better.

That's what I feel anyway.

[Maxhumus]

I think lelouch lives. First, the last words of C.C "Right, Lelouch?" while you could think she isn't really speaking to him, you must consider what she said before "The power of Kings, known as Geass, brings one solitude. Not quite accurate, is it?" she is saying the geass doesn't bring her solitude...why? because Lelouch passed the final stage of geass and became immortal.

You will also notice the smile on her face when she says that. Why is she smiling, Lelouch, her accomplice, is dead, and she as still all eternity to live alone. It was Lelouch's promise to make her smile, and how else can he do that than by living all eternity with her?

Another argument in favor of this theory is the presence of the Crane made in origami (made by Sayoko Shinozaki in the episode 3 of the first season, for Nunally) near C.C. at the end. First, why would she take something that belonged to Nunally? Plus I serched if there was any symbolism related to the crane, and there is. In japanese culture it is often used as a symbol for peace, but a more ancient use is to represent longevity, or immortality. And for me that is the final proff that lelouch became immortal and is escaping with C.C.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Maxhumus

I think lelouch lives. First, the last words of C.C "Right, Lelouch?" while you could think she isn't really speaking to him, you must consider what she said before "The power of Kings, known as Geass, brings one solitude. Not quite accurate, is it?" she is saying the geass doesn't bring her solitude...why? because Lelouch passed the final stage of geass and became immortal.

You will also notice the smile on her face when she says that. Why is she smiling, Lelouch, her accomplice, is dead, and she as still all eternity to live alone. It was Lelouch's promise to make her smile, and how else can he do that than by living all eternity with her?

Another argument in favor of this theory is the presence of the Crane made in origami (made by Sayoko Shinozaki in the episode 3 of the first season, for Nunally) near C.C. at the end. First, why would she take something that belonged to Nunally? Plus I serched if there was any symbolism related to the crane, and there is. In japanese culture it is often used as a symbol for peace, but a more ancient use is to represent longevity, or immortality. And for me that is the final proff that lelouch became immortal and is escaping with C.C.

Thank you! Not many people even mention the crane, and what it represents. As we see the side of the cart driver, while shifting up towards the crate, we see something pink at the top. Once we see C.C., it's revealed to be a paper crane above her head. In addition to what you said, we also must not forget the the myth surrounding making paper cranes, when C.C. first appeared in Lelouch's house, making them with Nunally. It's said that by making a wish and 1000 paper cranes, it will come true. Also, I don't think she took it, rather she learned how to make them herself. We know what C.C.'s wish was getting geass, "to be loved". Lelouch was "contracted" to fulfill one of her wishes. It's possible she made the 1000 paper cranes in order to have her wish fulfilled, in the form of Lelouch being immortal like her and staying by her side. The one we see is either the first or the last one she made.

[Maxhumus]

Yes, yes and yes. Although I think it's more probable that it is the same Crane, we will never know for sure, and it's two theories proving the same thing, Lelouch lives. It's when I discover symbolism like that, that I want to jsut re-watch the entire anime just to see if there is any other symols to analyse