AnimeSuki Forums

Judoh · 2010-06-25, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

All shadows are by nature fuzzy, particularly those that go backwards in time.

It's not the existence of people who want to be masterminds that I doubt, mind you. I doubt their capability to control people effectively enough to make them murder all the time, every time. There should be breaks of control somewhere, and that essentially amounts to there being no single mastermind.

Dissent in any mass murder conspiracy like this is going to be a given. I have no problem with there being more than one mastermind. I'd like there to be only one, but the later queen theory sorta gets in the way of that.

Oliver · 2010-06-25, 14:57

Abstractly.

What other reasons can there possibly be to instigate a Fake First Twilight, beside scaring people into solving the epitaph?

Judoh · 2010-06-25, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

Abstractly.

What other reasons can there possibly be to instigate a Fake First Twilight, beside scaring people into solving the epitaph?

A few I thought of

To blame it on Kinzo (Eva and Hideyoshi do this every time)
To blame it on Beatrice or person X (servants Jessica and Natsuhi do this a lot)
To give the people in the group an alibi
Make someone suffer (doesn't have to be about fear)
Battler's sin

any others we can think of?

Renall · 2010-06-25, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

Abstractly.

What other reasons can there possibly be to instigate a Fake First Twilight, beside scaring people into solving the epitaph?

Kinzo demanded it as a condition of inheritance.
Distracting people with a curious game. To make them solve the epitaph, not solve it, or to keep them busy until the bomb goes off.
Convincing them that Battler may be an impostor and using the fake epitaph murders as some way to lure him out (akin to the Natsuhi pressure theorized to exist in ep5).
They do it every year since someone thought it up 4 years back, they just all forgot to tell Battler about it.

Leafsnail · 2010-06-25, 15:07

There has to be some kind of Beatrice, otherwise Beato wouldn't be allowed to say things like "The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria"...

The first twilights are all odd, but for different reasons.

The first is odd since someone or some group must've dragged a bunch of people to the garden shed (for no real reason) after going insane with some sort of weapon.

The second is odd since all 6 people were apparently alive in the chapel, and quite how "Beatrice" lured them in there and killed them is a bit up in the air.

The third is odd due to the carefully planned nature of it... interestingly, other than Kinzo and Kanon, they all could've been found and shot where they ended up.

The fourth is weird since it's gonna be hard to blast 6 people in roughly the same part of the head without any of them reacting. On the other hand, it seems more calm and controlled than the rest...

Judoh · 2010-06-25, 15:12

I did come up with a theory recently for how to solve the closed rooms without having people faking and killing them after breaking them. Just an alternative for if the fake murders don't work out.

Basically it's a mutual murder. The people in the first, second twilights, etc whom are discovered dead in the closed rooms wanted to commit suicide, but for whatever reason couldn't. The murderer murders the victims because they want to die. In other words the culprit murders out of mercy and gains nothing from the murder itself. Afterward the victims create the closed rooms from the inside.(sometimes)

Oliver · 2010-06-25, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

any others we can think of?

...oh, idea!

To tempt someone else into killing the defenceless "victims".
To remove people from the social environment for secret activities that have nothing to do with the rest of the game. (Sort of like the alibi one, but not quite.)

Oliver · 2010-06-25, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

They do it every year since someone thought it up 4 years back, they just all forgot to tell Battler about it.

That one would be absolutely lovely, but Ange would remember.

TTR · 2010-06-25, 15:19

Spoiler for Hella long post.:

Also, I've looked at japanese reds and I take back one of my statements. It's not that she doesn't have anything to gain from the murders. It's just that murder isn't occuring to A) cause fear, B) get revenge, or C) Some kind of sick pleasure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

Somehow, I never mentioned Jessica in this sequence of posts detailing inheritance law and practices, and didn't even think much about her, yet everyone immediately thinks of her as soon as I say it can't be Shannon.

The reason why is because she is a direct descendant for the headship through Krauss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

'Technically' is the key word. Should we understand the red about "nothing to gain" in the widest possible sense, (accomplishment of any possible goal), "nothing to gain" regarding a very specific goal that is defined in such a way that both options are losing, or should we use the concept of a material or emotional gain instead? Why pick one over the other? I don't think the question of the proper interpretation of this particular red is settled.

Any kind of gain is still a gain. I'm taking this in a completely logical stand point. All gains are the same, and having any kind of gain is still a gain. Now, if we had the original japanese for it then maybe the context of "gain" might be restricted more. However all gains are gains. I'm not pushing either material or emotional ones. I'm against ALL gains. (lol amended this later in the post)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

I may be avoiding driving forces, however, one thing remains true -- Eva cannot inherit the Ushiromiya Group from a dead Beatrice unless Beatrice is in the Ushiromiya family register. If Beatrice was not in the family register but named Eva specially in a will, the law would have to stop for years to search for lineal ascendants of Beatrice who have a reserved portion of 1/3. I don't think that works.

She can inherit the group if everyone's somehow dead. Again, you keep assuming that Beatrice already somehow has the headship. I'm opening up the fact that maybe she doesn't. It's the most effective way to bypass Virgilia's red. Also, does "Beatrice" even exist? Policemen that investigate the island are going to find identifiable bodies. No one is going to be identified as "Beatrice." The ferry-owner doesn't know who Beatrice is and can't testify that he took her on the island. Beatrice wouldn't have a stake in the will because her existence is simply not provable. Therefore, if Eva was the last person alive out of everyone in the family, they can't find a "Beatrice" person to give any sort of wealth to. Is her body from the 60's even on the island? At the end of the board game, they will never find who Beatrice is, so she has no stake in the will (which according to early EP1, it probably doesn't exist since Kinzo hated the idea). Do you get where I'm going? No one can ever prove that Beatrice is getting anything. In fact, she might not even have the headship at all. The only surefire way she could keep it is if everyone dies. If someone of the Ushiromiya name lives after the incident, the they automatically get the headship. "Beatrice" as a person can never exist after the board game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

So we can do it with all the murderers but can't do it with Beatrice? Why?
It's not about what Beatrice wants to do, yet, but about the opportunity to do what only Beatrice can do, being 'the child that Golden Land belongs to'.

The reason why is because, again, Virgilia restricts her motives in red with certain conditions. Rather then wildly run the dark about her motives, the room has been lighted slightly by the red. We have to look within the confines of the red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

There's lots of lose-lose situations under the sun, so, not necessarily. For example, if Beatrice's goal is to destroy the wealth of Ushiromiya family, someone solving the epitaph is a loss, because the wealth remains, and nobody solving the epitaph is also a loss, because the wealth still remains with Beatrice. That's just off the top of my head.

Again, that can't be. I forgot the exact red for it, but IIRC Virginia stated that Beato has nothing to gain from the epitaph being solved OR NOT. It's in both the Japanese and English version, and is not an unexpected nuance that arises from translation.

If she wanted to destroy the wealth of the Ushiromiya name, all she would have to do is make sure the epitaph is never solved. In that case, their family businesses will flounder. Even if no one dies on the island, their businesses would either tank or become unprofitable. She would have a stake in people not solving the epitaph because no would could either A) get money from Krauss or B) Turn the gold into cash because their businesses are floundering.

Remember, Hideyoshi's company is being taken over from within. Without money, he can pay anyone off to keep quiet or settle the takeover. Rudolf is facing heavy penalties on his company's business practices and needs money to fight charges and subpoenas. Rosa's loans that she took out to start her fashion business are starting to be called back and she doesn't have enough collateral to pay them back. All of them can't extort money from Krauss because he is Krauss and is a business idiot and clearly has no money. Beatrice stands having something to gain from not letting anyone solve the epitaph if "Destroy the Wealth of the Family" is her motive. The wealth of the family would tank and they would go into debt if they don't find the gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

The simple way to overlay them is that one happening permits the gain from the other to occur which would otherwise not happen. For example, to gain from someone solving the epitaph, one specific person needs to be dead, otherwise they are the one who gains "it".

...that reminds me about that feud between the girls behind Battler's back. Battler solving the epitaph is only a win if the other girl dies.

That works if Battler promised both Jessica and Shannon the moon... well, something that he can only do if he's the head, that is -- and without the other girl dying in the epitaph murders, him being the head doesn't matter. Without him being the head, the other girl dying doesn't matter.

If he's the head, then the girl dying is technically an inadvertent gain. It's an unexpected one. That's still a gain in my definitions of what "gain" is. If he isn't the head, then he has nothing but loss. I accept that situation. The verb they use in the Japanese red is 得る which can have double meanings. It means to physically get something, but it can also double its meaning by "obtaining" an abstract thing such as knowledge. An emotional gain is an abstract gain, which is covered by the Japanese verb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver

Then there is no pre-prepared "Fake first twilight" plot at all, because only someone holding the entire family by the testicles, pardon the term, can reliably instigate it every time, and the fake first twilight, when it does happen, is always an improvisation of one group or another.

Which probably means that the letters have nothing to do with the murders, which complicates things even more.

EDIT: P.S. There's a relevant joke, a bit misogynistic, but pardon me for that. Three desires of a woman are said to be, in order of increasing preference:

To get married.
To get married to someone she wanted to.
To get married to someone some other girl wanted to be married to...

Before I was really accepting the idea of fake first twilight, but now I'm starting to doubt it. I'm not saying we should do away with it entirely, but maybe it should be tweaked a little more so that "fear" isn't one of the objectives. Then again, you COULD worm a hold out of my logic by saying that "That only counts for real murders. Fake murders aren't restricted by Virgilia's reds." But, why would I say that an poke a hole in my own theory?

TTR · 2010-06-25, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

I did come up with a theory recently for how to solve the closed rooms without having people faking and killing them after breaking them. Just an alternative for if the fake murders don't work out.

Basically it's a mutual murder. The people in the first, second twilights, etc whom are discovered dead in the closed rooms wanted to commit suicide, but for whatever reason couldn't. The murderer murders the victims because they want to die. In other words the culprit murders out of mercy and gains nothing from the murder itself. Afterward the victims create the closed rooms from the inside.(sometimes)

This just reminded me of something. What if, in EP1, Hideyoshi was bathing with a gun near the tub. Eva comes into the room, locks the door with the chain, and hears Hideyoshi splish-splashing and thinks its the culprit. At the same time, Hideyoshi realizes someone entered the room. Eva quickly throws open the door and shoots. Hideyoshi pulls out his gun and shoots AT THE SAME TIME. They both hit each other in the forehead. Unexpected murder on both accounts. Hideyoshi dies in the tub, Eva stumbles backward in shock and lands on the bed. I don't have to prove the existence or non-existence of the guns in the room. Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after. I refuse to explain the magic circle on the door because its existence isn't proven in red.

Leafsnail · 2010-06-25, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

This just reminded me of something. What if, in EP1, Hideyoshi was bathing with a gun near the tub. Eva comes into the room, locks the door with the chain, and hears Hideyoshi splish-splashing and thinks its the culprit. At the same time, Hideyoshi realizes someone entered the room. Eva quickly throws open the door and shoots. Hideyoshi pulls out his gun and shoots AT THE SAME TIME. They both hit each other in the forehead. Unexpected murder on both accounts. Hideyoshi dies in the tub, Eva stumbles backward in shock and lands on the bed. I don't have to prove the existence or non-existence of the guns in the room. Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after. I refuse to explain the magic circle on the door because its existence isn't proven in red.

This'd be a gun tht shoots stakes?

Judoh · 2010-06-25, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

This just reminded me of something. What if, in EP1, Hideyoshi was bathing with a gun near the tub. Eva comes into the room, locks the door with the chain, and hears Hideyoshi splish-splashing and thinks its the culprit. At the same time, Hideyoshi realizes someone entered the room. Eva quickly throws open the door and shoots. Hideyoshi pulls out his gun and shoots AT THE SAME TIME. They both hit each other in the forehead. Unexpected murder on both accounts. Hideyoshi dies in the tub, Eva stumbles backward in shock and lands on the bed. I don't have to prove the existence or non-existence of the guns in the room. Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after. I refuse to explain the magic circle on the door because its existence isn't proven in red.

Both were killed by another person!

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

Also Battler saw the magic circle himself , which is an equivalent to red truth, so using a devil's proof isn't going to help you in any way.

This is also grossly out of character for them so I don't think it would work anyway.

Leafsnail · 2010-06-25, 15:39

Although, if we just have Kanon as the culprit, it becomes quite a lot easier... he kills them both, cuts the lock, draws the circle and claims he found them like that. There doesn't seem to be any red text at all that contradicts that.

Incidentally, Kanon's "death" is actually pretty much guarenteed to be fake. Unless you can find a way around "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!". And sure, corpses weren't misidentified, but if you're not dead, you're not a corpse...

TTR · 2010-06-25, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Both were killed by another person!

Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!

Also Battler saw the magic circle himself so using a devil's proof isn't going to help you in any way.

Them killing each other counts as them being killed by another person. i.e. Hideyoshi was killed by another person, which is Eva. Eva was killed by another person, which is Hideyoshi. "Another person" doesn't exclude the people being murdered. It's an unexpected double homicide! See how beautiful it is?

I am counting as the "bathroom" and "bedroom" being counted as the same room (i.e. the closed room confines both the bathroom and bedroom, therefore they are they same room). If that doesn't fly, then technically opening the door and NOT CLOSING IT shifts the definition so that the bedroom is no longer off limits from the confines of the bathroom, therefore it technically becomes the SAME room.

An unknown accomplice, either Kanon or Kumasawa or anyone who realizes the murder has occurred before Battler gets a chance to use Detective Authority could have done the following things:

Either Kanon or Kumasawa hide the guns after they discover unexpected double homicide and decide to make it the second twilight. They alter the scene before Battler gets a chance to use Detective authority.

If Kanon or Kumasama aren't accomplices, then during the unknown span of time X between Kanon and Kumasawa leaving the room and Battler arriving after being informed of the crime all of these actions can occur. Devil's proof to show how they did in the span of time, or who it is.

This is possible to not leave clues because, in EP5, the bodies of the victims get moved without Erika (the Detective) realizing they are moved. Thus, Detective Privilege only is covered when you can physically inspect the room with your own two eyes. Devil proof on how everything was moved without leaving clues.

Judoh · 2010-06-25, 15:46

Again it's grossly out of character for them to kill each other like that. Not that duels don't happen at all mind you it just doesn't happen between the couples and that's something that's common throughout the episodes. Plus they were both aware that the other person was in the room there is no way Eva would mistake him for the culprit like your saying.

Furthermore Both were killed by another person is different from Rosa and Maria were killed by other people . The former insinuates the two people were killed by one person the latter insinuates more than one person could possibly do it.

If anything the two of them faking is more believable than them killing each other.

TTR · 2010-06-25, 15:52

That was a joke theory. I keep emphasizing that it was unexpected because they instinctively pull the trigger before confirming the identity of the person. Kind of like shooting in the dark. It's just too bad that they end up killing each other, isn't it?

For me, being killed "by another person" encompasses both those reds. I don't have the Japanese, but I wouldn't be surprised if that style of thinking is a weird nuance that comes from translating into English.

Although, it still has the chance to be right. All of these interpretations of red is like the Tube theory. None of us can negate each others interpretations!

But still, I personally believe double homicide (even unexpected) doesn't break those reds. They're both killed by another person. It's just chance they it happens to be each other hahaha.

siberius · 2010-06-25, 15:52

Spoiler for the red text:

After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision.
Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice.
By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
There are no more than 18 people on this island
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.
No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious!
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder
Her eyes were completely blocked.
It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that
Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved
The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
This also applies to Battler and Eva
neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
The red only tells the truth
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Right before his eyes!

So basically, the only way to logically explain this situation, is to assume that someone is impersonating for one of the mentioned 15 dead characters and the original is dead.
We know that Gohda was hired just before, or right after, Kinzo death and that he was chosen because of the best qualifications.If a person X would suspect that Kinzo is dead, or soon will be, and wanted to steal his fortune, he would probably send a spy on the island. The real Gohda was killed right after he was fired from the hotel and his identity was stolen by the spy who use it to infiltrate the The Rokkenjima.
I personally find “Gohda” extremely suspicious because his death was never 100% certain. In the first episode his face was destroyed, in the second and third Battler did not find his body and in the forth episode his face was all covered in blood. The way that “Gohda” and Kumasawa corpses were placed in episode 4, visible but unreachable, suggests that the culprit wanted to show them in the open to trick the witness. In the end Battler found the way to examine them, but because he didn’t clean the blood on their faces (and because Battler is incompetent), we can’t be certain that those bodies really belong to “Gohda” and Kumasawa.

Oliver · 2010-06-25, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

The reason why is because she is a direct descendant for the headship through Krauss.

Notice that characters always talk about "rank in Ushiromiya family". There's a reason for this. Basically, the side effect of the practice of getting around the inheritance tax is that inheritance by law normally only affects things that aren't expensive enough to bother having them owned by the holding company -- the petty cash box. I.e. any real estate and money and investments and pretty much anything of real value is inherited exactly how the head says it is and in no other way, it sidesteps the concept of a reserved portion provided for by law as well. There are no defaults and rules that move inheritance beside direct orders from the head ..or his agent, by the way, which would be Krauss. So "Beatrice" can be anyone. What the siblings are appealing to when discussing the issue with Krauss is traditional order of the Ushiromiya Group, but not the law.

But Eva's getting the inheritance anyway is implied to have been through direct legal channels, i.e. she inherited shares of the holding company as property by law, rather than bought them for a nominal amount from their previous owner like it would happen normally. For this to happen at all, "Beatrice" needs to be an Ushiromiya.

It still can be absolutely any member of the Ushiromiya family register who died on the island except Battler, because they would need to sign for it, and we know Battler didn't, since he isn't Beatrice. Jessica is a strong Beatrice candidate for other reasons, but this does not rule out, for example, Rosa, and that "Beatrice" doesn't have to be female either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

Again, you keep assuming that Beatrice already somehow has the headship. I'm opening up the fact that maybe she doesn't. It's the most effective way to bypass Virgilia's red.

Argument 1: This is the only practical way to reliably instigate a fake first twilight, which is how I stumbled on the idea in the first place. That alone is not much, but,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argument 2

;#ff0000もともと黄金郷の黄金はこの子のもの。#ffffff@/
`#ff0000the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child.#ffffff `@/

That fits so much better than having found the gold before that I don't think there's much of a contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

Also, does "Beatrice" even exist? Policemen that investigate the island are going to find identifiable bodies. No one is going to be identified as "Beatrice." The ferry-owner doesn't know who Beatrice is and can't testify that he took her on the island. Beatrice wouldn't have a stake in the will because her existence is simply not provable.

Well, duh, like that person ever uses the name "Beatrice" on legal documents. Please don't be silly. Did you read anything of what I wrote above? Someone has the practical headship, that is, owns the majority share of the holding company that holds the entire Ushiromiya wealth and the deed to the island as well. That someone is required to exist to bypass the 70% inheritance tax that would trigger if the shares of the holding company were passed down through a legal will. This someone is whom I refer to as "Beatrice". Whatever real first name they have does not matter as long as Ushiromiya is their last name, which is how Eva can inherit them by law (and pay the 70% inheritance tax) after they, in turn, die, and Eva survives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

If she wanted to destroy the wealth of the Ushiromiya name, all she would have to do is make sure the epitaph is never solved. In that case, their family businesses will flounder. Even if no one dies on the island, their businesses would either tank or become unprofitable. She would have a stake in people not solving the epitaph because no would could either A) get money from Krauss or B) Turn the gold into cash because their businesses are floundering.

I meant the wealth of the head house, rather than the wealth of the companies owned by the individual branch families, which are not wholly owned subsidiaries of the Ushiromiya Group despite financial ties -- otherwise, there would be no need to badger Krauss for money.

Judoh · 2010-06-25, 15:57

It's probably better to use Battler's logic about the time of death rather than have an impersonator. Since person X does not exist. This theory is further supported by Episode 5 so I think it's solid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

However, their deaths were not proclaimed in red at the instant Doctor Nanjo died. Strictly speaking, it was in the fight between me and EVA after Doctor Nanjo's corpse was found. In other words, if someone who was alive at the time that Doctor Nanjo was killed died before EVA proclaimed that death, you can sew right through that crack!! In other words, it's like this. One of those who were first made dead by EVA's proclamation of the deaths, was able to skillfully play dead earlier and wait for us to pass by...! And while their death still hadn't been proclaimed with the red, we were made to think that they had died. Then they killed Doctor Nanjo, ......and later died for some reason! Then after that, EVA proclaimed their death in red!!

Oliver · 2010-06-25, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTR

...Devil's proof on how they got the guns and how they were hidden after....

Devil's proof is not actually a proof, it doesn't end the argument. Battler might be using it like that, but that's not to his credit.

2010-06-25, 15:12	Link #11586
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	I did come up with a theory recently for how to solve the closed rooms without having people faking and killing them after breaking them. Just an alternative for if the fake murders don't work out. Basically it's a mutual murder. The people in the first, second twilights, etc whom are discovered dead in the closed rooms wanted to commit suicide, but for whatever reason couldn't. The murderer murders the victims because they want to die. In other words the culprit murders out of mercy and gains nothing from the murder itself. Afterward the victims create the closed rooms from the inside.(sometimes) __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-06-25, 15:46	Link #11595
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Again it's grossly out of character for them to kill each other like that. Not that duels don't happen at all mind you it just doesn't happen between the couples and that's something that's common throughout the episodes. Plus they were both aware that the other person was in the room there is no way Eva would mistake him for the culprit like your saying. Furthermore Both were killed by another person is different from Rosa and Maria were killed by other people . The former insinuates the two people were killed by one person the latter insinuates more than one person could possibly do it. If anything the two of them faking is more believable than them killing each other. __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:"

2010-06-25, 15:07	Link #11585
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	There has to be some kind of Beatrice, otherwise Beato wouldn't be allowed to say things like "The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria"... The first twilights are all odd, but for different reasons. The first is odd since someone or some group must've dragged a bunch of people to the garden shed (for no real reason) after going insane with some sort of weapon. The second is odd since all 6 people were apparently alive in the chapel, and quite how "Beatrice" lured them in there and killed them is a bit up in the air. The third is odd due to the carefully planned nature of it... interestingly, other than Kinzo and Kanon, they all could've been found and shot where they ended up. The fourth is weird since it's gonna be hard to blast 6 people in roughly the same part of the head without any of them reacting. On the other hand, it seems more calm and controlled than the rest...

2010-06-25, 15:39	Link #11593
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	Although, if we just have Kanon as the culprit, it becomes quite a lot easier... he kills them both, cuts the lock, draws the circle and claims he found them like that. There doesn't seem to be any red text at all that contradicts that. Incidentally, Kanon's "death" is actually pretty much guarenteed to be fake. Unless you can find a way around "In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!". And sure, corpses weren't misidentified, but if you're not dead, you're not a corpse...

2010-06-25, 15:52	Link #11596
TTR 受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ Join Date: Apr 2009	That was a joke theory. I keep emphasizing that it was unexpected because they instinctively pull the trigger before confirming the identity of the person. Kind of like shooting in the dark. It's just too bad that they end up killing each other, isn't it? For me, being killed "by another person" encompasses both those reds. I don't have the Japanese, but I wouldn't be surprised if that style of thinking is a weird nuance that comes from translating into English. Although, it still has the chance to be right. All of these interpretations of red is like the Tube theory. None of us can negate each others interpretations! But still, I personally believe double homicide (even unexpected) doesn't break those reds. They're both killed by another person. It's just chance they it happens to be each other hahaha.

2010-06-25, 15:52	Link #11597
siberius Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: The Golden Land	Spoiler for the red text: After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision. Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice. By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva There are no more than 18 people on this island No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game Kinzo is dead Krauss is dead Natsuhi is dead Hideyoshi is dead George is dead Rudolf is dead Kyrie is dead Rosa is dead Maria is dead Genji is dead Shannon is dead Kanon is dead Gohda is dead Kumasawa is dead Nanjo is dead The 15 people mentioned are dead Battler is alive Eva is alive Jessica is alive Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder She was not involved with Nanjo's murder Her eyes were completely blocked. It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo This also applies to Battler and Eva neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo Nanjo was killed by another person Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him The red only tells the truth Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes! So basically, the only way to logically explain this situation, is to assume that someone is impersonating for one of the mentioned 15 dead characters and the original is dead. We know that Gohda was hired just before, or right after, Kinzo death and that he was chosen because of the best qualifications.If a person X would suspect that Kinzo is dead, or soon will be, and wanted to steal his fortune, he would probably send a spy on the island. The real Gohda was killed right after he was fired from the hotel and his identity was stolen by the spy who use it to infiltrate the The Rokkenjima. I personally find “Gohda” extremely suspicious because his death was never 100% certain. In the first episode his face was destroyed, in the second and third Battler did not find his body and in the forth episode his face was all covered in blood. The way that “Gohda” and Kumasawa corpses were placed in episode 4, visible but unreachable, suggests that the culprit wanted to show them in the open to trick the witness. In the end Battler found the way to examine them, but because he didn’t clean the blood on their faces (and because Battler is incompetent), we can’t be certain that those bodies really belong to “Gohda” and Kumasawa.