2012-06-08, 12:50 | Link #9241 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Chapter was Kinda boring, maybe other can point out something interesting that I missed. I dont consider her a minus anymore, her personality changed thanks to zen, and her ability is controllable thanks to Kumugawa. If she is still classified as a minus then she will lose this fight.
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2012-06-08, 16:27 | Link #9242 |
Awe of She
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Orlando
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We can probably call Emukae a reformed Minus. While she still leans towards negative thinking, she's actively trying to change that side of herself. Other Minuses don't care enough to change their personality like Emukae is.
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2012-06-08, 21:09 | Link #9246 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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A bit late, but:
I consider an asspull any story element introduced with no prior foreshadowing or setup... Zenkichi just went "oh by the way I can do this now because of training and Real Eater", even though this had never been mentioned before. Moreover, the real reason I think Devil Style is gone is because prior to this current arc, it was of enormous importance... but it hasn't been brought up once since. It's both odd and suspicious. Furthermore, Zenkichi looking at the puzzle this chapter for less than a minute and solving it instantly... the story has already established that he's the sort of person that can't do something like that, you know? Hence Shori's reaction. |
2012-06-08, 22:07 | Link #9247 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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I mean, seriously. Zenkichi made Devil Style because he wanted a reality where he wouldn't be helped, where he would win without luck or some miracle. He wanted the feeling of his doings to be real. That's what's appealing to him about Devil Style to begin with. That's his reason for making the skill. Are people going to tell me his character suddenly changed? That was his doing, through his effort. He gets the credit for working his ass off to build himself from scratch. Plus, with all the narrative conventions not being followed, Devil Style no longer existing is a nigh-impossibility, IMO. |
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2012-06-08, 22:52 | Link #9248 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Really, this whole arc is strange that way. We're getting information about the time in between 140 and 141 in little bits, rather than actually showing us what happened directly. Emukae's fight next week will probably have a flashback to Zenkichi recruiting her, for instance. Training that, I might note, we never really saw or were told exactly what it entailed, because said training is actually just an excuse to asspull new talents of Zenkichi's and I really don't like it. Actually, now that you bring it up, he does feel a bit different from the Zenkichi we've seen up until now, but I'd put that down as more of him starting to become comfortable in Medaka's role. Quote:
For that matter, this arc is an exact repeat of the structure of the Minus and to a lesser extent the Flask Plan arc, just in a variety of exotic locales rather than Hakoniwa Academy, which is another thing that kind of bothers me. NisiOisiN is going to spring some surprise on us because that is what he does. Given how I feel it's being intentionally avoided, I suspect it will have something to do with Devil Style. That was really my point to begin with. |
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2012-06-08, 23:13 | Link #9249 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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The Zenkichi during and after the Flask Plan, though. Exudes this aura of confidence in himself. This character of knowing, and sheer bossness. Someone with his resolves settled. Probably due to this page: Spoiler:
He knows what he wants, and acknowledges himself, what he can and can't do. Due to his sequence with Anshin' San and Emukae, his personality was, indeed, reformed. Quote:
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Either way though, your problem with Nisio repeating a successfull narrative format is...? Quote:
Forget Zenkichi's character, you'r implying Nisio undermined the entire importance of Medaka Box. Realize that EVERY god-like thing Nisio did and exagerated about Medaka he did it to invalidate it in the future with Zenkichi. Really, like that nice Sol person said: Quote:
Nisio isn't that bad a writer. I call bullshit. |
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2012-06-08, 23:30 | Link #9250 | ||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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"I can do this now, because of unspecified training".
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Furthermore, many people would call NisiOisiN a bad writer and are often given reason to, even though I know from his other works that he's better than this, which is why I want this arc (which, after Ajimu's skillspam, has turned extremely predictable) to take a sharp turn in the first place. |
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2012-06-09, 00:12 | Link #9251 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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So you'd consider anything he could do because of his training an 'asspull', simply because we did not see the training?
Well, it is your opinion. Quote:
Devil Style Medaka Box: Zenkichi is the weakest of his team. Shounen Principle #2: You'll fight from the strongest to weakest in a tournament. Devil Style Medaka Box: They are fightning the strongest suitor right now, with two left to go. Shounen Principle #3: A power-up will elevate the main character above the level of his current enemy(Natsu, Ichigo, you know the drill) . Devil Style Medaka Box: Zenkichi was absolutely destroyed by Nienami and won through a slim chance by abusing her weakness. Shounen Principle #4: The main character is irrevocable and will never be defeated. Devil Style Medaka Box: Does Zenkichi look like the undefeatable beast that Pre-Devil Style Medaka was? No? That's all due to his personal skill: Devil Style. Looks pretty obvious. Quote:
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Zenkichi needed Mars Mode to even begin to be considered a 'third-rate'. In Medaka Box, there'd be a universe separating him and the word 'powerful'. Mars Mode was a boost given to him to attempt to show the initial efforts the flask plan had, trying to maximize the abilities that a normal like Zenkichi had. Obviously to no avail. It couldn't beat Nienami, it wouldn't last a second against Medaka. I don't see how you can even reach the conclusion that it's an insult to his character him working hard to try and attain his full potential. Mars Mode isn't a skill. It's him operating at maximum potential. Regardless, that's a pretty twisted view of the manga in my opinion. That's not what Nishio meant to write at all. What he did was create a character to invalidate the Shounen protag that was the past Medaka. Which he did to a tee. And manages to keep himself pretty consistant. Quote:
I'm now convinced we are not reading the same manga anymore. You're Wrong! For us humans to constantly succeed is just wrong! Spoiler:
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I was wrong... Spoiler:
It is my loss... Spoiler:
The invalidation of her being of 'constantly suceeding' was specifically named as one of the things Zenkichi wanted her to admit she was wrong about. And that's exactly what he did in the election. I'm sorry, we can stop the debate right here. The Manga completely invalidates your hypothesis. Quote:
The manga disagrees. Hell. Medaka disagrees. She admitted her view was wrong. You can't possibly be implying you think Nisio is this bad a writer, that he fucked-up the entire arc. |
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2012-06-09, 00:34 | Link #9252 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Medaka's loss was her moral victory. I wasn't the only person to have this opinion, nor was I the only person to be rather upset by it. If NisiOisiN wanted to us to believe that her ideals and moral position had been "shattered", he failed utterly at doing so, in my mind. She's right, no matter how much she is wrong. That hasn't changed. In regards to your "shounen principles"... well, yes, but in that case Devil Style didn't really do anything at all, did it? Zenkichi has always been the true main character of the series, just not in Medaka Box's weird metafictional sense of the term. All Devil Style did, in this case, was prevent Zenkichi from acquiring the same kind of protagonist immunities that Medaka has (which may, in fact, be specific to her rather than just the nominal position of "main character", a concept that might not even actually exist.). This is interesting, you've given me a new idea to think about. Thank you. Yes, actually. He's pulling new abilities and talents out of nowhere with a flimsy justification. I don't like it at all, but mileage varies, I guess. |
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2012-06-09, 00:49 | Link #9253 |
匂宮家
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Even the most seemingly useless arcs--as far back as the first chapter--had some purpose to it so far. Hell, even how the manga would go after Unzen was foreshadowed to an extent.
Until the not-equal arc, most of the characters Nisio used were Nisio's take on most of the stock shounen characters besides some of the too nisio-esque characters. The moment I saw Kairai, it was obvious that Nisio began finally writing Medaka Box the way he writes his novels. There is a reason a lot of people are reminded of the Zaregoto series. Even I couldn't help but see the quirky, eccentric side-families from the Zaregoto series when I saw the initial suitors. And it's not just their personality or character that's similar to Zaregoto's seinen air, it's the story as well. How these changes are due to Devil Style; Wolfenstein explained, so I won't bother. (By these changes, I mean the shonen conventions changing. The shift from Nisio's regular writing and post not-equal/jet-black bride writing is already apparent.) Nisio does have flaws, but I haven't read anything pages long detailing how much of a bad writer he is. Sure, even his hardcore fans criticize some of his books, but only because he never shows what they expect. By the way, Zenkichi's training was mentioned in the manga --did they have to say "We are gonna teach you the ultimate taiga akushou!!" for it to be pleasing. Admitting something exists just for the sake of admitting it... I doubt Nisio even saw it as necessary to voice it when its effects are seen clearly in the manga itself. And if that's not enough, his training is mentioned again in an insert from the first novel. That sketch of him running really was from the time he was training. Unlike some mangas where we are shown unnecessarily long, flashy training arcs, Nisio isn't someone to waste time on that. Just because he doesn't limit himself doesn't mean anything and everything he doesn't show is asspull. Otherwise "Naze Youka's training from hell" and Maguro's "A Course" alone would have taken around 10 chapters...
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2012-06-09, 00:58 | Link #9254 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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2012-06-09, 01:04 | Link #9255 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Her 'victory' lied in the fact that her logic was invalidated, which is what you are arguing was NOT invalidated to begin with. That was always Zenkichi's plan from the start.
Releasing her, by defeating her. By invalidating her past existance. And then 'confessing'. Though he later switched to giving her free-will. She realized people cared enough for her to try and stop her when she was wrong, that in no way, consitutes to her 'standing above others as a God-like being' not being invalidated. It has absolutely ZERO realtionship to that actually, given the fact she was invalidated is what brought about her moral change to begin with, and made her realize people cared for her. So no. I won't have people saying an entire arc was fucked-up completely because they mis-interpreted it. I am deeply sorry, but that just irks the hella out of me. Quote:
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Then Zenkichi promptly told her how everyone cared for her. And how it was wrong to be always right, something she acknowledged as correct. I mean, am I missing something here. Anyone? Quote:
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2012-06-09, 01:27 | Link #9256 | |||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Also, I don't see how the story is that much different at all. The only difference is that the focus has shifted to Zenkichi (as it has done before), and that the setting has expanded outside of the Academy. |
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2012-06-09, 01:48 | Link #9257 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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This is all portrayed accurately when Zenkichi goes through his character metamorphosis and later when Medaka is defeated. Quote:
What Zenkichi did was so much more than simply save Medaka from her erroneous ideology, something he wanted to do. He created a new world, a new manga, with his skill and ideology. And that is exactly what Ajimu Najimi wanted to pass to us with her line: 'My new worlds's main character.' And exactly what I took out of it. And that's exactly what we are seeing happen right now. Quote:
I really don't know what to say to this. Sorry. Quote:
Nisio is still writting this 'new world'. He needs some time to get to the climax. |
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2012-06-09, 01:59 | Link #9258 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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What I really don't like is how nothing has been made of the kiss scene since. It really tramples on his victory, I feel. Quote:
Whether or not this serves to illustrate the manga's themes is irrelevant; the world of Medaka Box, in the world of Medaka Box, is (probably) not a manga. You could actually give it some thought. Did ANYONE ever bring up the skill other than Ajimu? It works more on Medaka Box's metafictional themes than any other skill in the manga; such a skill shouldn't exist in-universe. Parts of other arcs have done this; for that matter, a lot of the time Medaka isn't even the focus. This isn't new. |
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2012-06-09, 02:22 | Link #9259 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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That's how, finally, she was able to lose when it actually mattered. Even the narrator tells us this: Spoiler:
It's not a delusion at all. Fate exists in Medaka Box, without a doubt. Or, well at least existed. With Devil Style around, It might as well not exist. Quote:
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Which it has. Zenkichi is now the main character, but without all the benefits since he disposed of them, and manga conventions are all but non-existant. |
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2012-06-09, 02:25 | Link #9260 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Guys, the reason Zenkichi's Altered God Mode isn't an asspull is because it doesn't make him overpowered, not that it was justified (which I would actually give to Kaisos that it was not as clearly telegraphed as most other things within the story). It is not even a supernatural power aside from the concept that Zenkichi can use the full-potential of his body/abilities. The most important aspect of an "asspull" is the degree to which it enables convenient/unbelievable events in the story; which Zenkichi having Altered God Mode didn't remotely do for his victory.
About whether or not Medaka lost in the elections. She did explicitly in the fact that she got 2% of the vote from the academy, and Zenkichi got 62%. This was a rejection of Medaka's mission as Student Council President, "To be of service to strangers", which to that point had been Medaka's entire life. There were two ways in which Medaka's attitude was presented as being wrong. First: it was suggested that people should solve their own problems, rather than relying on Medaka. The situation that Medaka's kindness/leniency allowed people to receive things they didn't deserve/earn was presented as being wrong. Personally, I disagree with this because Medaka herself has always been presented as wanting people to be independent/grow stronger, and fight for their own happiness. Second: Medaka's selfless/giving attitude was rebuked for treating all other people as equal "strangers". One aspect of this was the development of her treatment of Zenkichi, whereby the special relationship of "childhood friends" between them was abandoned because it got in the way of Medaka's ability to help other people. The second aspect of this was in how Medaka's attitude inherently implied that the people she helped were "strangers"--people who received and gained from Medaka's kindness, but never gave anything back. In essence, it implied an inequal relationship: Medaka's attitude of placing herself completely below other humans, as someone in service to others, meant that anybody who accepted that and unobjectionably received help from her would be treating her as less than human. What was not disputed/criticized: nowhere did the manga imply/acknowledge that Medaka's actions were anything except her whole-hearted attempt at being of service to others. In essence, as a matter of characterization: the manga maintained that Medaka is (as always) a sympathetic person who was always selflessly thinking of others. Furthermore, no commentary/development was made in regards to the fact that Medaka is still (practically) the de facto strongest/most powerful individual in her universe, with abilities far beyond normal such that they are still pretty much untouchable compared to the efforts of normal humans. However, the continuation/legitimization of Ajimu's Flask Plan, which has already produced its first generation of subjects including Torai, the new SC member, looks to perhaps have begun changing this. Also, for the record I want to clarify that I disagree that the sole point of Medaka's character was to represent the conveniences of shounen main characters (that would describe only, to be specific, Medaka's Abnormality--NOT her personality or characterization as a human individual) and that I still believe she has a very significant role to play as, in her own regard, one of Medaka Box's actual Main Characters. Also that I am shipping Kumagawa x Medaka and Emukae x Zenkichi for real, as this manga's endgame pairings. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-06-09 at 02:54. |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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