Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Kaijo]

People asked, and I answered. That's all. And I felt the discussion in the Kyube thread was getting off on a tangent, so I was going to move it here, that's all.

[Rabbits]

I'm finding Madoka difficult to take seriously. Although I like the premise, the moe glaze prevents it from being interesting on a Narutaru/Bokurano level, and I notice comparisons are being made with Kitoh's works just because of the show's dark elements + kiddy genre, yet it feels less grounded in reality than any of his work.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

And people have different morals and as such they might see the manipulation of these young girls as evil no matter what goal lays at the end. If you don't think he's manipulating these girls for some purpose I can only say your mostly likely just being willfully delusional.

The level of manipulation that I've seen from Kyubey so far is roughly on the level of a good (i.e. effective) door-to-door salesperson. So yes, he's engaging in some degree of manipulation, but I just feel like it's being blown way out of proportion.

Now, many people find door-to-door salespersons quite annoying, but few would call them evil.

I don't like the outright dismissal I've seen of him being called evil just cause we have no definitive proof.

Here's the thing: What if all the "Evil Overlord" speculations pertaining to Kyubey turn out to be false? What if he ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with a very real threat to innocent humans posed by witches and familiars?

If that ends up being the case, will a large chunk of the fandom's assessment of his character forever be biased, corrupted, and very skewed, because people bought in so completely to the idea that he was evil during the early and middle portions of the anime? Will people be incapable of readjusting their view of him to account for him not being an Evil Overlord?

The thing is that because many people are already 100% believers in the idea that Kyubey is evil, they've taken to interpreting every little thing he does in the most negative and sinister light possible, and not even considering alternate interpretations. But many of those negative light interpretations are thrown into serious doubt if Kyubey ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with a very real threat to innocent humans posed by witches and familiars.

Are people going to be willing to cast aside those old interpretations, and make new ones, if Kyubey ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with the threat posed by witches and familiar? Or are they going to stick to extremely negative views on Kyubey because they have already wedded themselves to them?

Your own following words sadly suggest the latter:

I personally think chances are he's evil but he might just be an asshole.

So, for you, he can't be anything but evil or an asshole. No matter what he does, you've committed yourself to viewing him that way.

Problem is, though, that your view here may be objectively a very inaccurate assessment of him depending on how Madoka Magika goes from here.

Would it really be "assholish" of Kyubey to simply be contracting magical girls in order to protect innocent civilians from familiars and witches? Isn't that an overly negative and simplistic take on him, if it ends up being that this is virtually all that Kyubey is doing?

If you going to argue against him being evil why not argue facts not we don't know's and maybe's.

Fine. Let's do that.

He certainly someone who is very subtlety deceptive

Is he being deceptive, or is he simply being understandably cautious and shrewd in what he chooses to reveal?

I don't see how I can justify throwing these girls lives away when he clearly doesn't inform them of the extent of the situation they are getting themselves into.

How do we know that he doesn't inform any magical girls of that?

He didn't inform Madoka and Sayaka because Mami did it for him. Mami was quite up front to Madoka and Sayaka about the dangers of the magical girl life.

If Mami wasn't there to explain them, who's to say that Kyubey wouldn't have revealed the dangers of the magical girl life to Madoka and Sayaka?

[Himeji]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Considering Mai HiME twisted many of the standard MG concepts (friendship overcoming all, transformations, magical creatures, etc), it does do an interesting take on deconstructing the genre.

Is it the only way to do it? Does Madoka also take a slightly different tack on deconstructing? Yes. But do they both do similar things, just taking slight different paths? Yep.

I'll agree, there are indeed a good bit of parallels between Mai Hime and Madoka.
One distinct advantage of Mai Hime though was that it had better chara design, they didn't have such awful pancake faces there.

@Triple_R
Dibs to you for bringing some good points about why Kyuubee quite possibly isn't evil. People are far too fixed on that idea already

[aeriolewinters]

@Triple_R
Dibs to you for bringing some good points about why Kyuubee quite possibly isn't evil. People are far too fixed on that idea already

In my case, I'd expect anything at this point because it could go both ways. Considering the fact that getting fixated about kyubey being evil will give you a bad taste if your guess is wrong

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The level of manipulation that I've seen from Kyubey so far is roughly on the level of a good (i.e. effective) door-to-door salesperson. So yes, he's engaging in some degree of manipulation, but I just feel like it's being blown way out of proportion.

Now, many people find door-to-door salespersons quite annoying, but few would call them evil.

If said door to door salesman was leading young naive girls into a life where death is quite possible, if not extremely likely, without giving her all the necessary information to make a solid decision and keeping his motives hidden then I don't think I just find him more than annoying!

Here's the thing: What if all the "Evil Overlord" speculations pertaining to Kyubey turn out to be false? What if he ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with a very real threat to innocent humans posed by witches and familiars?

This doesn't change the deception he uses acquiring these girls services. It also a matter if you believe the ends justify the means. In this case I can think of many if any ends I would find justifiable for this.

If that ends up being the case, will a large chunk of the fandom's assessment of his character forever be biased, corrupted, and very skewed, because people bought in so completely to the idea that he was evil during the early and middle portions of the anime? Will people be incapable of readjusting their view of him to account for him not being an Evil Overlord?

I think people have a problem with him manipulations and that is why they are calling him evil so far. This is not an opinion without cause. This is not an opinion with justification. You might not find his manipulation yet to warrant him being called evil but others just might. I think when people see the end they will be able to judge all his actions accordingly and they might or might not change their opinion. That has nothing to do with how you feel now about him looking at what he is doing to these girls.

The thing is that because many people are already 100% believers in the idea that Kyubey is evil, they've taken to interpreting every little thing he does in the most negative and sinister light possible, and not even considering alternate interpretations. But many of those negative light interpretations are thrown into serious doubt if Kyubey ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with a very real threat to innocent humans posed by witches and familiars.

Are people going to be willing to cast aside those old interpretations, and make new ones, if Kyubey ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with the threat posed by witches and familiar? Or are they going to stick to extremely negative views on Kyubey because they have already wedded themselves to them?

Your own following words sadly suggest the latter:

I might just never be able to view him as good or completely innocent but I see no problem with that. I find it utterly and completely deplorable that he manipulates and uses these young and impressionable teens and pre-teens girls to fight battles for him. Why not tell them the complete truth? Why no recruit adults? Why not call in the army to fight this evil? Ask yourself what kind of person uses the most vulnerable and innocent victims to do their dirty work? I don't see why I have to change my opinion on this no matter what QB's motivates might be. It might happen though but I have a right to judge his actions so far even without knowing the ends and I can't see any ends which would truly absolve him of any guilt for preying on this girls.

I'm of course ignoring the normal magical girl trope that this is standard par for how characters become magical girls. QB is portrayed quite differently and the air is quite different than a regular MG girl where we take for grant that the magical creature has her best interest in mind. At least Yuuno apologized early 10 seconds or so for dragging Nanoha into a battle. You're not going to get that from QB.

Is he being deceptive, or is he simply being understandably cautious and shrewd in what he chooses to reveal?

He probably being all three. He wants them to form a contract after all so he'll manipulate their friendships with each other and it hope, wishes and dreams to get them to agree to it.

How do we know that he doesn't inform any magical girls of that?

He didn't inform Madoka and Sayaka because Mami did it for him. Mami was quite up front to Madoka and Sayaka about the dangers of the magical girl life.

If Mami wasn't there to explain them, who's to say that Kyubey wouldn't have revealed the dangers of the magical girl life to Madoka and Sayaka?

Because watching for 5 episodes lets me know enough about his personality that I can't foresee him telling something that might get to not agree to the contract. Also the Mami made it look cool more so than she let them in on how dangerous it was, until of course she got her head bitten off and they quite got the message then.

[Spinell]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I might just never be able to view him as good or completely innocent but I see no problem with that. I find it utterly and completely deplorable that he manipulates and uses these young and impressionable teens and pre-teens girls to fight battles for him. Why not tell them the complete truth? Why no recruit adults? Why not call in the army to fight this evil? Ask yourself what kind of person uses the most vulnerable and innocent victims to do their dirty work?

Because no one can see him except those girls.
A better question would be why none of the girls did what you suggested. QB exudes a smell that makes dumb? Permanently by the way, they even got magic to prove their words, if they did the contract.
Or maybe because it is an anime?

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Spinell

Because no one can see him except those girls.
A better question would be why none of the girls did what you suggested. QB exudes a smell that makes dumb? Permanently by the way, they even got magic to prove their words, if they did the contract.
Or maybe because it is an anime?

Really, why is it that only they can see him? Do adults just not possess the magical power to see him or is this just another one of his deceptions. Taking QB at his word for me is foolhardy. It is this kind of thing in these shows we take for granted that the magical creature is being straight with us and no asking the why's. You explanation seems simple and straightforward enough but is it really the truth or have you just been duped into believing it because you never bother to consider he might be lying?

You have to remember these characters are young girls. They just don't have the experience yet to know not to put there complete trust in everything that comes of QB's mouth. I could fool my younger cousins all day long into doing nonsense because they just hadn't learn yet how to analyze situations and do critical thinking and they trusted me. Even a lot of adults struggle with these kinds of situations when presented with similar circumstances. Con men prey on peoples hopes and dreams similar to how QB preys on these girls. Getting them to trust him then getting them to do something that seems perfectly logical when he doesn't tell you the whole story and you don't ask because you trust the person or don't see all the angles.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Spinell

Because no one can see him except those girls.
A better question would be why none of the girls did what you suggested. QB exudes a smell that makes dumb? Permanently by the way, they even got magic to prove their words, if they did the contract.
Or maybe because it is an anime?

Very well said.

Honestly, Slick Rick, you do realize that the bulk of your criticisms of Kyubey could be extended to the majority of all
action-oriented animes, let alone magical girl animes, right?

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Really, why is it that only they can see him? Do adults just not possess the magical power to see him or is this just another one of his deceptions.

You keep talking about Kyubey's deceptions.

What deceptions, exactly?

You explanation seems simple and straightforward enough but is it really the truth or have you just been duped into believing it because you never bother to consider he might be lying?

Are you considering that he might be telling the truth, Slick_Rick?

If so, then what?

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Himeji

One distinct advantage of Mai Hime though was that it had better chara design, they didn't have such awful pancake faces there.\

You basically have no idea about reason of this animation's popularity, then... :/

Without Ume-sensei character design, this anime never worked from the start. The episode 3 would have never be shocking without it.

Ume-sensei design >>> everything else.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Are you considering that he might be telling the truth, Slick_Rick?

If so, then what?

That kind of counter-attack logics died few centuries ago. Still, there are undeniable clues that Kyuube might be an evil being. He might not be evil, but he definitely isn't good guy, for constantly luring Madoka for unacceptable situations.

[totoum]

Are people going to be willing to cast aside those old interpretations, and make new ones, if Kyubey ends up just being someone contracting magical girls in order to deal with the threat posed by witches and familiar? Or are they going to stick to extremely negative views on Kyubey because they have already wedded themselves to them?

I'm sure most will cast them aside,a good exemple would be Mami,lots of people (including myself) were saying "Mami is evil",I'd say a big majority basicly went "oops,we were wrong" after her death and moved on,though I've heard a small minority say that her death was part of her plan and she's hoping madoka will use her wish to bring her back.

I'm becoming more of a believer that QB himself isn't evil,but the 'MG system" is evil,the only ones who seem to enjoy it are the ones who've lost all sense of morality like Kyoko.Homura says it sucks,Mami says it sucks and Sayaka says at the start of episode 4 that she had no idea what she was getting into.
QB is part of that system,but I don't know if he's thinking to himself "I can't wait to completely ruin the life of a girl",even if he's not and has no ulterior motives,the fact alone that he's part of an "evil" system makes him "evil" to most people.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by applejuice

That kind of counter-attack logics died few centuries ago.

Balderdash.

It's quite logical to consider all possibilities. That hasn't died at all.

Still, there are undeniable clues that Kyuube might be an evil being. He might not be evil, but he definitely isn't good guy, for constantly luring Madoka for unacceptable situations.

Are the situations "unacceptable" if they lead to a greater good in the end?

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Are the situations "unacceptable" if they lead to a greater good in the end?

Your doing too much philosophy. Greater good doesn't matter, because Kyuube's most apparent action is only suggesting his endless interest in Madoka's power. So, you are telling me Madoka Puella magi is for the greater good, right? But Madoka's future will be 'done' after that. We already know being 'puella magi' is a serious business, not some play-ground lalala.

Kyuube is emotionless and amoral, yes, I think that's something everyone agree. So, someone can say 'amoral is not same as being evil'. However, let's just take that characteristic of 'complete emotionless' to human. That's what we call psychopath. I'm taking example to extreme, but that's the closest I can think of.

Balderdash.

It's quite logical to consider all possibilities. That hasn't died at all.

It dies when one is not seeing the obvious.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Himeji

One distinct advantage of Mai Hime though was that it had better chara design, they didn't have such awful pancake faces there.

Characters here are just intended to identify with a younger audience.

[Hypernova]

I got a theory that QB might not even be sentient, perhaps he was created to run the system long ago and has not will of his own.

How I thought of it:
1) He does not lie. But...
2) He doesn't really answer unless questioned.
3) No emotion, and I'm not talking about his face.
4) Has a clear set of goals and doesn't do anything else.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Hypernova

I got a theory that QB might not even be sentient, perhaps he was created to run the system long ago and has not will of his own.

How I thought of it:
1) He does not lie. But...

Unknow so far

2) He doesn't really answer unless questioned.

He does, he volunteered information about Sayaka and Homura to Kyoko.

4) Has a clear set of goals and doesn't do anything else.

we rarely see plotters outside of their plots.

[Hypernova]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Unknow so far


He does, he volunteered information about Sayaka and Homura to Kyoko.



we rarely see plotters outside of their plots.

True, just throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks really, haven't had coffee in a month.

However I'm inclined to believe that QB only chose omit information and don't actually lie.

[felix]

I wonder what would happen if the little rascal were to die.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Ume-sensei design >>> everything else.

You may as well say that anyone who holds a different taste than you, is somehow wrong. Character designs are subjective as to whether one likes them or not.

At any rate, I'm finding the whole "selfish" theme being repeated and hinted at to be highly amusing.

One can make the case that Kyube is selfish, but being selfish isn't wrong or evil by itself. We're all selfish. Hell, Madoka is selfish (to keep it thread related). That doesn't make it wrong. If you want something, and you are up front and honest about what you want... does that make you a bad person?

Capitalism relies on people being selfish.

I'm more amused at the overall cognitive dissonance. Time and time again, there are some telling us that being an MG is a death sentence. And yet, Sayaka is somehow bad because her wish was entirely selfish. Huh. She's giving herself a death sentence in order that someone else can play a violin again. Damn that selfish person that chose to die for me!

To keep from going off track, Madoka is just as selfish. She wanted to be an MG because it was cool, and then she didn't because she was scared of dying. Perfectly understandable feelings mind you, but no less selfish than Kyube and Sayaka.

So, we can we drop the whole selfish angle? I mean, if we're gonna use it, we have to apply the standard evenly. Hell, I don't believe in true altruism myself, so I'd agree that everyone does something because of a selfish desire. So I'm more than willing to call Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyube selfish.

And Kyoko, beloved Kyoko, who has embraced it totally, hehe.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And Kyoko, beloved Kyoko, who has embraced it totally, hehe.

Can't wait to hear what her wish was… Doesn't her name mean something like respectful?

BTW is her name officially Kyōko or Kiyoko?