[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by loctar87

People can be quite lonely even when they are around other people. Kanon was someone who could truly be close to her. Yasu needed Shannon, even if she had Gaap. It's the same from Shannon needing Kanon.

Do you understand that Shannon is already a person who has several imaginary friends? Why are you talking as if Shannon and Yasu were two different persons? Let's say that somehow in this mess Shannon became the real person (because the idea that your imaginary friends needs an imaginary friend is simply ridiculous), then why Beatrice and Gaap weren't enough?

Think carefully about this, because if you say that Shannon doesn't know they exist then you must accept she has DID.

[Axilios]

But she can't create a universe with Kanon. All universe creations we've seen have been between people who have in some two separate physical entities. Creating a universe with Kanon would be like creating a universe with herself, one that would crumble apart quickly.

Also, Maria would not be needed in order to create her "golden land" if it worked this way. After all, Maria is not here often, among other things. If you were able to create an universe with a part of you, all of this would be useless.

Think carefully about this, because if you say that Shannon doesn't know they exist then you must accept she has DID.

... Is it even possible with the part with what we are seeing about Yasu at the beginning?
Maybe with Yasu being a personnality of Shannon which have imaginary friends, but it becomes quite far-stretched... And otherwise, I don't see.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

But she can't create a universe with Kanon. All universe creations we've seen have been between people who have in some two separate physical entities. Creating a universe with Kanon would be like creating a universe with herself, one that would crumble apart quickly.

Frankly I don't believe this one is correct.

Yasu created a world all alone for quite a while. She never needed anyone for that. In fact the golden land is an entire world created by a single person. The problem is that it's a lonely world, however it's still a world.

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Do you understand that Shannon is already a person who has several imaginary friends? Why are you talking as if Shannon and Yasu were two different persons? Let's say that somehow in this mess Shannon became the real person (because the idea that your imaginary friends needs an imaginary friend is simply ridiculous), then why Beatrice and Gaap weren't enough?

Think carefully about this, because if you say that Shannon doesn't know they exist then you must accept she has DID.

They aren't imaginary friends, they're different roles. It's like a play where Yasu is the director and all the actors. "Shannon" wants to live in the real world, so Beatrice and Gaap aren't people who can be truly close to her.

[AuraTwilight]

But she can't create a universe with Kanon. All universe creations we've seen have been between people who have in some two separate physical entities. Creating a universe with Kanon would be like creating a universe with herself, one that would crumble apart quickly.

Bear in mind that Beatrice, at the time, did not know what love was. This is exactly the sort of thing Beatrice took Shannon's love for in order to understand. Until then, she doesn't get it yet.

Do you understand that Shannon is already a person who has several imaginary friends? Why are you talking as if Shannon and Yasu were two different persons? Let's say that somehow in this mess Shannon became the real person (because the idea that your imaginary friends needs an imaginary friend is simply ridiculous), then why Beatrice and Gaap weren't enough?

Beatrice and Gaap are witches and can only talk to her in her dreams, duh.

Yasu created a world all alone for quite a while. She never needed anyone for that. In fact the golden land is an entire world created by a single person. The problem is that it's a lonely world, however it's still a world.

The universe thing is a metaphor. It means that nothing you do necessarily means anything, the world you make means nothing, if someone doesn't acknowledge it. That's magic, and without love, it cannot be seen.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Frankly I don't believe this one is correct.

Yasu created a world all alone for quite a while. She never needed anyone for that. In fact the golden land is an entire world created by a single person. The problem is that it's a lonely world, however it's still a world.

I don't see that as a world. It had no existence outside her head. That's not a world. That's a delusion. Inside it, she only entertained characters that were just members of her crowded head.
We only see the emergence of the Golden Paradise, later Golden Land, and an influx of characters which are not herself once she creates the Mariage Sorciere with Maria.
More so, you could speculate that the Meta-world is a universe created between her and Battler.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

I don't see that as a world. It had no existence outside her head. That's not a world. That's a delusion. Inside it, she only entertained characters that were just members of her crowded head.
We only see the emergence of the Golden Paradise, later Golden Land, and an influx of characters which are not herself once she creates the Mariage Sorciere with Maria.
More so, you could speculate that the Meta-world is a universe created between her and Battler.

I think that's why it was said the minimum number of people for the creation of a world is 2. Yasu's world needs Maria to be made complete.

[Kirroha]

Kanon serves as the person who can take away Yasu/Shannon's sorrows, I believe. After all, ever since the first episode you see Kanon badmouthing all the people who have been mean to Shannon.

[TehChron]

You're all ignoring the logistics of it by justifying it with a Genji Chessmaster spin with no other justification than a lack of evidence indicating it's out of character for him to not enable it.

Well, let's all keep in mind how sensitive Genji is to Kinzo and his family having bizarre personality traits, and Im sure the last thing he would have wanted to encourage in the future heir of the family is something somewhat resembling DID.

The logistics of Kanon under the normal Shkannon interpretation are what really make it suspect. There is most definitely a form of it going on, but the way most of us understand it makes no real sense.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by loctar87

They aren't imaginary friends, they're different roles. It's like a play where Yasu is the director and all the actors. "Shannon" wants to live in the real world, so Beatrice and Gaap aren't people who can be truly close to her.

A "role" doesn't have a mind, a "role" doesn't have a soul. The one that thinks, suffers, and everything is the person behind that role.
Unless you claim it's DID, then it's always Yasu the one we are talking about, no matter what kind of role she takes.

So in other words Yasu already has her fantasies about Beatrice and Gaap. And Kanon isn't more real than them, he's still one of her fantasies.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Beatrice and Gaap are witches and can only talk to her in her dreams, duh.

This doesn't make sense not even as a magic metaphor. Again, unless you claim it's DID, "Shannon" doesn't need any special counseling, Yasu does, and she can escape inside her fantasies whenever she wants.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

I don't see that as a world. It had no existence outside her head. That's not a world. That's a delusion. Inside it, she only entertained characters that were just members of her crowded head.
We only see the emergence of the Golden Paradise, later Golden Land, and an influx of characters which are not herself once she creates the Mariage Sorciere with Maria.
More so, you could speculate that the Meta-world is a universe created between her and Battler.

I can't see any coherence in your logic. By which logic you decide that Yasu's world is just a delusion and the meta-world is not? Moreover why the Meta-world is a universe created by Battler if from the very beginning Battler didn't acknowledge that world?
Also why you deny that which has been consistently named as "world" isn't a world? And why you deny that Yasu's world was merely renamed as golden land even so that's what was clearly shown in EP7?

Your position seems pretentious to me. It looks as if you decided "a priori" that the need for two persons to create an universe is an absolute truth and on that basis you rewrite all the other evidences to fit with it.
Why not simply accept the evidences and conclude that the thesis of the two persons is wrong, or that it applies to a completely different kind of "world"?

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A "role" doesn't have a mind, a "role" doesn't have a soul. The one that thinks, suffers, and everything is the person behind that role.
Unless you claim it's DID, then it's always Yasu the one we are talking about, no matter what kind of role she takes.

So in other words Yasu already has her fantasies about Beatrice and Gaap. And Kanon isn't more real than them, he's still one of her fantasies.

Yasu isn't the "real" one. Ever since Yasu decided to live in fantasy as the witch, there never has been a "real" one. Lion is suffering from the ultimate identity crisis. To cope with reality she started wearing the masks of other people, and now she has no idea who she really is. That's part of why she planned the witch's murders: To have fate decide who she really was.

[Jan-Poo]

I can't prove that Yasu is real but I can objectively prove that Shannon is a mask.

1) Shannon doesn't remember anything about Yasu.
2) Shannon doesn't know how the magic trick are performed.
3) Shannon is dim witted.

Whoever is the real person behind the various masks she must

1) Possess a clear continuity of all of her memories.
2) Know what's the trick behind the various" magics".
2) Be extremely intelligent.

Those things cannot be faked. Shannon doesn't have them, but Yasu has at least two of them.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I can't see any coherence in your logic. By which logic you decide that Yasu's world is just a delusion and the meta-world is not? Moreover why the Meta-world is a universe created by Battler if from the very beginning Battler didn't acknowledge that world?

And that's why I said speculate. It was an idea I was tinkering around with last night, just one to pass time with. If you're dead-set on it not working, I won't run with it then.

Also why you deny that which has been consistently named as "world" isn't a world? And why you deny that Yasu's world was merely renamed as golden land even so that's what was clearly shown in EP7?

She took the name Golden Land from the Epitaph. Before that, she renamed it the Golden Paradise when she took the title of the Golden Witch thanks to Maria's magic lectures. Before that, it was just her paradise.
We all make our own little paradises inside our heads. I don't know a person who hasn't at one time. However, you have to accept that beyond our heads, those paradises are nothing but fantasy. Something you imagine can only become true if others accept it as truth. A fantasy novel is only a toy of the author until they publish it and allow others to believe in it and solidify it as a world.
I deny it's existence as a world until Maria met Beato and allowed it to become a world. And I don't deny that Yasu's world was merely renamed as the Golden Land; in fact, that's what I've been saying. She simply just changed the name from Golden Paradise to Golden Land.

Your position seems pretentious to me. It looks as if you decided "a priori" that the need for two persons to create an universe is an absolute truth and on that basis you rewrite all the other evidences to fit with it.

I don't see me rewriting evidence. I'm just taking something that's been stated in several episodes, and seeing how it fits with the evidence. Mind pointing out what evidence I've rewritten?

Why not simply accept the evidences and conclude that the thesis of the two persons is wrong, or that it applies to a completely different kind of "world"?

Because it's been brought up more than once throughout the series that a world needs two people to exist. It makes sense to me, so I put my faith in it.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't see me rewriting evidence. I'm just taking something that's been stated in several episodes, and seeing how it fits with the evidence. Mind pointing out what evidence I've rewritten?

The evidence is the fact that Yasu created her ideal world all by herself.
You say that that world was an illusion? Well what else is a "world"? Unless you can demonstrate that the "world" we are talking about is something tangible then I can't see how you can determine that one world is an "illusion" and another is "not".

Once Maria was invited in Yasu's ideal world it's not like it became real, it was still an illusion.

Of course you can say that when two people share the same world, the illusion becomes stronger, but for that to happen you just need one to create it and one to acknowledge it.

The example of the fantasy novel that you made fits perfectly with this basic concept. The creator is only one. You don't need two people to create a world, actually in most cases there's only one creator.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

@Jan-Poo:
A world is an accepted truth between two or more people. Our real world is a truth between the 6.5 billion people living in it. The truth doesn't need to be tangible, but it must be accepted between two people in order to be a world.
Besides, the only one in the series who I see as possibly able to create a world by herself would be Maria, with her potential to be a creator. Yasu/Beato has mentioned on several occasions how Maria's power in full force would be immensely greater than hers.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Well of course, if there's no one to acknowledge the world you created,
it may be just as good as a delusion since you're the only one in it.
It's normal human desire to want someone to pat you on the back, say 'good job' and acknowledge your accomplisments for you.
Or else you may start doubting and wonder whenever what you did was really only great in your eyes alone.

[KazePT]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

@Jan-Poo:
A world is an accepted truth between two or more people. Our real world is a truth between the 6.5 billion people living in it. The truth doesn't need to be tangible, but it must be accepted between two people in order to be a world.
Besides, the only one in the series who I see as possibly able to create a world by herself would be Maria, with her potential to be a creator. Yasu/Beato has mentioned on several occasions how Maria's power in full force would be immensely greater than hers.

Well, we know that a world can be created without "two individuals* - We have Maria for example. She created "her world" where she believed that her mother was possessed by an evil witch and everything that we know already - She never needed anyone to create that world with her.

I believe that the phrase "a world can only be created by two people" is just to emphasize "love" - a being to be complete needs to have a partner, something among those lines. We all know how much "Yasu" longs for love, this is just another proof of that. It doesn't necessarily means that is a "rule".

Now on to "Kanon".

I think that Kanon did appear to serve has a friend, a partner, that Shannon didn't have. It makes sense in a way, after all that has happened, and supposedly Shanon didn't have "Beatrice"'s company until she "fell asleep", so Kanon probably became a "friend that co-existed" in the same world as Shannon.

We could theorize about the need for a male presence because of the ambiguity about Yasu's true gender, or the beginning of "new" feelings for Jessica (maybe?).
We probably will have a better explanation later about this.

I feel sad about a thing - The more and more I feel that we are not meant to uncover the truth completely about Umineko, we aren't even given a chance to do it in a methodical way because we have the hole "cat box thing". We almost have to guess, "intuitively", what is really going on.
It's kinda disappointing. (I love you Ryukishi07! But damn you!)

[TehChron]

That's abusing the heart, you know.

We're told this mystery requires one to understand the heart of the motive, not to just say "this and this is plausible because of emotion X". Ignoring the howdunnit is a mistake. How was Shkannon even manageable at that stage? It shouldnt have been. Genji kept the truth of Yasu's parentage to himself until the very end. No one else knew. And it would have required a lot more then Genji's cooperation to pull it off.

[AuraTwilight]

A "role" doesn't have a mind, a "role" doesn't have a soul. The one that thinks, suffers, and everything is the person behind that role.
Unless you claim it's DID, then it's always Yasu the one we are talking about, no matter what kind of role she takes.

So in other words Yasu already has her fantasies about Beatrice and Gaap. And Kanon isn't more real than them, he's still one of her fantasies.

Well, yes, objectively, we know that, but subjectively, Shannon doesn't have anything in common with the magical friends. She can only speak to them in a dream world where she doesn't remember anything where she wakes up, and they can't sympathize with her servant life. That's what Kanon's for: He suffers the same day-to-day bullcrap and she doesn't need to go to sleep to talk to him.

This doesn't make sense not even as a magic metaphor. Again, unless you claim it's DID, "Shannon" doesn't need any special counseling, Yasu does, and she can escape inside her fantasies whenever she wants.

See above.

I can't see any coherence in your logic. By which logic you decide that Yasu's world is just a delusion and the meta-world is not? Moreover why the Meta-world is a universe created by Battler if from the very beginning Battler didn't acknowledge that world?
Also why you deny that which has been consistently named as "world" isn't a world? And why you deny that Yasu's world was merely renamed as golden land even so that's what was clearly shown in EP7?

lol, what the hell? Beatrice describes the Meta-World as "a world created for the purpose of being with you." Even if he didn't accept Beatrice's existence, he did accept he was in some weird alternate plane of existence so he could fight her. Yasu can call her fantasy world a world all she wants, but a world is only a small part of a greater universe, and you need two people to make a universe.

Your position seems pretentious to me. It looks as if you decided "a priori" that the need for two persons to create an universe is an absolute truth and on that basis you rewrite all the other evidences to fit with it.
Why not simply accept the evidences and conclude that the thesis of the two persons is wrong, or that it applies to a completely different kind of "world"?

Because it's been shoved down our throats by practically every character whenever the subject of love has come up and Ryukishi writes things for a reason. It looks to me like you're missing the metaphor of what the statements, and trying to tie it with the literal creation of "worlds."

Of course you can say that when two people share the same world, the illusion becomes stronger, but for that to happen you just need one to create it and one to acknowledge it.

Creating a universe is an act of magic. Without love and acknowledgement, magic cannot exist. It cannot be seen. Something isn't created unless it's acknowledged.

We're told this mystery requires one to understand the heart of the motive, not to just say "this and this is plausible because of emotion X". Ignoring the howdunnit is a mistake. How was Shkannon even manageable at that stage? It shouldnt have been. Genji kept the truth of Yasu's parentage to himself until the very end. No one else knew. And it would have required a lot more then Genji's cooperation to pull it off.

How so? People keep bringing this up, but I never get a satisfactory answer. The other servants would've just accepted it, Kumasawa and Genji would roll with it, Nanjo and Kinzo are too distant to be relevant, Krauss is stupid, Natsuhi is out of her mind, and Jessica is...stupid and hormonal.

[Moogleking]

I still have a hard time accepting Shannon and Kanon being the same person.

There are just too many contradictions. You don't even have to look farther than the first twilight of the first game.

Kanon is standing beside Battler, along with most everybody else that is still alive. It is said Kanon is burning the image of half of Shannon's face into his eyes.

Since there are no body double tricks, that should be Shannon's real body. If Shannon is faking death, and is the same person as Kanon, it means we're basically shown a fake person existing from Battler's perspective.

Game 3:
The closed room circle. They go to Shannon's body in the parlor, then follow the closed room circle to get to the chapel and find Kanon's body. It is impossible for Shannon to have gotten inside the chapel, because she wouldn't have had the key and it was locked.

You basically have to assume that everything shown is false. And at that point, it isn't a solvable mystery anymore.

Then in game 6, we are told there are 17 people on the island. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, who is the 17th person? And I've heard the argument that Erika is supposed to be the 17th person for just those 2 games, but that just doesn't make sense with how it is worded "Even if you join us, there are 17 people." It also provides no explanation for why this statement kills Erika.

I have a hard time believing there will be a satisfactory answer for all of these if Shannon and Kanon are the same person. If there isn't, I will be thoroughly disappointed with the outcome.