Yzak Joule vs. Shinn Asuka

[SNT1]

because he's more or less in kira and Athrun level and Yzak is not.

I think the opposite XD

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

I would have to go with Yzak here.

A.) Because I like him a lot more than Shinn

B.) At least at the end of SEED and throughout SEED Destiny, he was more...collected, lol.

C.) Would've beaten Kira a couple times were it not for god-lucky interventions (Kira getting the Launcher Striker at the very last second or Athrun suddenly grabbing Kira up with the Aegis)

I'm sure that, if given the chance, Yzak could probably also awaken his "SEED mode" and then suddenly start owning XD

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

My vote actually goes to Shinn in this one...

While Yzak is shown to have far more actual combat experience, I see his approach to combat as his major weakness in this confrontation. Throughout both series Yzak is shown to be a straight forward fighter, his basic tactic is to charge in and confront the enemy head-on - a practice he does not deviate from. First against the Druggies in SEED, a fight which I'd say he survived more by luck than skill, it was shown that he does not fair well against mobile suit pilots who employ unorthodox or unconventional approaches to combat. The erratic and highly unconventional attacks employed by the Druggies threw him off and nearly cost him dearly.

More than this, it has been shown, that as a pilot he operates far better in a team rather than as a solitary unit. Against skilled pilots, Kira and/or the Druggies, he often stalemates or gets overwhelmed - once again, I'd attribute this to his basic strategy of fighting head-on. While he can pressure his opponents, if the first strike fails to connect or defeat the foe, he is at a large disadvantage. With team support he seems to excel as their are people that can immediately capitalize of the situations he creates. While this tends to work, the question seems to be of the one-on-one variety so there will be no backup to support him.

Lastly, he tends to lose his temper rather quickly in the heat of combat, especially if the flow of the battle is not on his side. While it is true that this is a trait both he and Shinn share, in Yzak's case it appears to adversely affect his performance where the opposite is true for Shinn.

Now, as to why I chose Shinn...

Shinn's greatest advantage in this confrontation is that, as a pilot, he employs some rather unique and improvised battle strategies (see GSD 34 for reference material) and isn't affraid to sacrifice a weapon or two to setup for the finishing blow. This is, as I see it, what gives him an edge over Yzak; while both are straight forward fighters, Shinn's use of unusual tactics and attack patterns would quickly overwhelm Yzak. I'd imagine that if it had been Yzak piloting Freedom in GSD 34, he's have been rather angry at his continually missing Shinn and would have quickly lost his focus in his anger.

So, yeah, I voted Shinn.

Well you see it's all about beating a man at his own game...Shinn fights much like Yzak in his head -on approach which is something that nullifies Yzaks intial movement...When in the entire series has Yzak shown any affinity to use battle techniques outside of the "blitz" mentality?? Aside from that he relies on anger and aggression to propel himself in battle (and with that said it has failed many times)...Not only does Shinn fight the same way in terms of anger, his anger has been shown to be atleast 5 times more intense than anything Yzak has shown and this anger is what triggers his special SEED-ability...You cannot discount this...


While SEED Mode is indeed some unexplanible bull$hit in areas, what we do know about it is that it heightens reflexes and spatial awarness...So if Shinn fights comparable to Yzak minus this mode with this mode intact he should have the potential for increased ability...Yzak has not shown that he is any type of ranged or defensive fighter...He thrives in both team and individual melee combat...In SEED Mode Shinn is superior in basic melee, something he was shown to be easily adaptable to vs. DESTROY with the lack of SEED Mode...and before you scream plot device understand that Kira perfers ranged battles in nearly every situation while Shinn increased his battle strength via melee (however weak you considered his opponents it still advances the progression of fighting in that style and the comfortability level he shows using that style which he also imployed vs. Freedom in addition to DESTROY)...

Yzak's plateau ends or peaks at the hieght of his anger, while Shinn's plateau hightens and increases expedentially based on his anger...When he's ridiculously mad he snaps into a new level of fighter(While Yzak is proven to get flustered the angrier he gets)...Yzak seems to me to be the type who has always been angry and jealous from early on...He has become far more subdued at this point in the C.E. universe...Shinn had no such problems considering he was given IMPULSE even despite coming in second to Rey...While he is an angry kid who wants to protect that never was the base for his personality (Even with his love ones dead his anger for that isn't on the same level as his SEED anger)...While it seems to me Yzak has always been an angry SOB which is clearly shown early on in SEED...Where I am going with this is that Yzak's capacity for improvement seems to go hand in hand with his lack of self control and anger...Since he operates from a base of anger he can't ever get angry enuff to excel to that next level, that SEED level...

Good hearted characters like Kira and Athrun exceled to SEED because their capacity for anger is a total diverge from their base personalities...Kira going SEED for the first time angered from the lost of innocent lives and later in the Desert arc berzerker-SEED inwhich killing became quite easy for him...Athrun going SEED from his bitter anger at Kira for losing a cherished friend also shows that diverge...Yzak operates from a base of anger inwhich he'll never get so mad that he taps into a heightened state because he's always a bit mad...Shinn on the other hand is the first SEED fighter to tap into this hightened state based upon a more potent anger (Kira and Athrun no longer need to become angry to tap into this)...His anger is almost the lifeblood of his SEED mode which turns out to be a total contrast...

It doesn't matter to me Yzak's battle experience because never has he been asked to do what Shinn has done which is dominate under the team concept and be responsible for the lives of basically his entire crew...It's one thing to fight as a team member of all dope Coordies with no one to protect (Proactively assaulting) than to be a fighter who has to consider the well-being of his entire crew during every battle (proactively defending) and doesn't have the freedom to operate outside the concept of time-constraints based on the Minerva's plight...

Shinn has a higher potential for fighting than Yzak and with his SEED abilities trump Yzak who wouldn't necessarily trump Shinn in normal mode..Obvioulsy Shinn's Gundam would effect the outcome because Zaku Phantom ain't beating DESTINY but given a transpose of Yzak's fighting with a new generation fighter in DEUL a series ago Shinn has shown to have a better aptitude and adaptability for fighting in his Gundam...Yes it was specially designed for him, but I can't see Yzak having the same Impact and calm demenor despite his anger that Shinn routinely exhibits in IMPULSE atleast...

In a 1 vs. 1 encounter I believe Shinn presents far more intangible and unpredictable qualities than Yzak does...and even if Shinn were to engage Yzak in a head-on, blitz-metality he has proven to be more susecessful in these situations which would seem to be Yzak's biggest strength...With Yzak has in battle experience and skill Shinn atleast equates in quality and hightened ability and it is proven that Shinn's anger is his most potent ability, while Yzak's anger is a deterent for him to the point where Yzak fails...

In my conclusion, Shinn wins...

[tritoch]

Naw, Yzak just talks angry but he isn't angry at anyone except maybe at Kira for pawning him the entire series. It's like rewatching Kamille and Jerid

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by epyon96

You realize all your arguments are "straw man" arguments right? You can't take a scenario and take out all the elements you don't like to make your argument look stronger than it is.

Shin vs the three extended in the beginning. If I recall, he had Athrun's help in the beginning along with Luna and Rey later on in every single fight. Let's not forget, in none of those fights he was winning. But of course, that doesn't matter because to you, that's still a 3v1 battle and survival is the only requirement. The only problem is had it not been for those other characters who assisted him, I highly doubt he would've survived. Even that one-on-one battle with Neo's Exxass, he nearly died had it not been Rey's help.

Well since I have the DVD eps I've recently seen the first few episodes (It is fresh in my mind) and in those episodes it is clear than Shinn in overwelming the 3 on 1...It may be true that he got help here and help there, but my point was OVERALL he exhibited abilities trumping the druggies in their intial engagement...If you remember I was trying to dispell the silly myth that because Yzak defeted druggies (with help) in SEED that somehow makes Shinn achievement vs. the extendeds less evident and that, "Yzak > druggie > extended = shinn?" is silly because it's not just about opponents it's about style of fighting...

As for Rey helping Shinn vs. Neo I accept that because Neo (as Mwu) has shown that he is superior when figting in MA's as oppose to fighting in MS's where he is AWFUL other than .//hackatsuki...

This glorification argument you make is not the right way to argue in this type of debate considering the fact that the same thing can be applied to Yzak, the person you are trying to prove that Shin's better to. Yzak throughout the two series was "underglorified' - if that's a term. He received absolutely no special effects treatment whatsoever. Then it becomes an argument over degree of plot device used for each character which becomes a slur of useless opinions. It's appropriate in this type of versus debate to assume that what happened in the anime is fact and none of it can be attributed to plot devices; otherwise, to either sides of this debate, anything you don't like is all of a sudden a plot device.

Not sure what you are responding to here since the crux of that particular insert was that Shinn would at the very least have a psycological advantage over Yzak from the mere fact that he defeated an opponent that Yzak regards as being in a totally different class than himself...The fact is Shinn defeated Kira and Freedom and whether or not that's a paper victory in your mind is irrelevent to the fact that Yzak may not consider that so..and by virtue of this that accomplishment by Shinn would at the very least rent space in the back of Yzak's mind giving Shinn a psycological advantage from jumpstreet...Not sure what you are talking about in terms of glorification...

But of course, you are also forgeting the fact that from the very beginning of GSD, Fukaku suggested that Impulse is superior to the previous generation super powers like Freedom with the respective Impulse packs. Whereas, for Yzak, he always gets stuck with the absolute worst in mobile suits when it comes to ace pilots. First he gets the Duel, which is the alpha-suit of the bunch of GAT weapons. Than he gets the Zaku Warrior, while Shin and Athrun get GUNDAMs. But again, I'm beginning to go into plot device territory so I'll stop. But do consider some of the reasons why Shin defeated Freedom whereas Yzak couldn't in his mobile suits.

Doesn't matter...when Yzak had the oppurtunity to defeat STRIKE in a same generation Gundam he failed...It's as simple as that...Fukuda could say pigs can fly, but in the portrayle of GSD it is shown an expressed that FREEDOM is still superior to IMPULSE in speed, manueverabilty, and aramaments...So basically you have Shinn defeating Kira in a lesser Gundam when Yzak couldn't defeat him in a same class Gundam which dives back into the psycological argument I had been trying to express from the very beginning...

Defeating Auel was quite a feat but the only problem with that is that it doesn't prove that Yzak couldn't have done the same if not with more ease considering how he handled the druggies in Seed with similar strategies of throwing smokescreen in front of enemy than hitting them when they can't see.

Once again your incorrect because your ignoring that Abyss is specifically designed for this type of battle...Shinn is fighting at a handicapped disadvantage vs. Abyss in the water conflict...Using unorthodox skills like cutting off all power just to dodge a shot (You think that's part of BLAST's specialized abilities or an impromptu manuever by Shinn?? )..Do you think Yzak could fight against Auel with Duel sitting on it's boogie-board while Auel is shifting unpredictably beneath him?? Just because Yzak (with help mind you) bested a SEED-druggy in some individual instance doesn't mean he could fight outside of his element the way Shinn fought against Auel, even dodging FREEDOM with Auel beneath him...It's not all about the brute strength of opponents it's also about contrasting styles at play...

The other arguments you made here all fall under the "plot device" catagory. You realize the other side (those arguing for Yzak) can say the same stuff about him. However, I do not see any of your straw man arguments as a way to prove either way.

Not quite my friend...I think I've proven otherwise with just the premise of this post...So save your straw man for the wizard of Oz and Kansas corn-crops...

[epyon96]

I got some time between studying so here goes. I'm glad this has been non-personal attacks.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Well since I have the DVD eps I've recently seen the first few episodes (It is fresh in my mind) and in those episodes it is clear than Shinn in overwelming the 3 on 1...It may be true that he got help here and help there, but my point was OVERALL he exhibited abilities trumping the druggies in their intial engagement...If you remember I was trying to dispell the silly myth that because Yzak defeted druggies (with help) in SEED that somehow makes Shinn achievement vs. the extendeds less evident and that, "Yzak > druggie > extended = shinn?" is silly because it's not just about opponents it's about style of fighting...

As for Rey helping Shinn vs. Neo I accept that because Neo (as Mwu) has shown that he is superior when figting in MA's as oppose to fighting in MS's where he is AWFUL other than .//hackatsuki...

I've been watching both Seed and GSD extensively over the last few days as I, like yourself, have all the subbed episodes. I don't see how he "trumped" the three at all. I'm sorry. Not only would he have died if Athrun didn't jump in or Mwu, his initial entrance where he flew awfully close to the three mobile suits with his Impulse plane was just plain stupid. It looked nice mind you but had any of them reacted instead of being surprised, it would've been over since he flew like a few metres away from the middle of the combat.

You can say what you will about plot device. But I treat that as a form of bad decision making by the character when he is fighting.

He showed absolutely no ability to handle the three mobile suits together. In all the encounters, save the first one where Athrun saved him, he had assistence from Luna and Rey and it was a stalemate more than anything else. I'm not suggesting that Yzak can handle the three suits together either since there has been no scenario presented to show his individual talents. However, one thing for certain is that the scenario you presented of 3v1 where Shin "handled" himself did not exist at all. He would've died or seriously injured himself had he not had assistance.

What these scenes did prove for certain is that these extended seem to possess far less agressive ability and overall piloting ability compared to the druggies in SEED. However, other than that, it didn't prove any "talents" of Shin.

Mwu, as a bad Mobile Suit pilot? Unless you mean bad as not at Kira/Athrun level, than sure. But other than that, I do not agree. Hmm. Let's save that for another debate.

Not sure what you are responding to here since the crux of that particular insert was that Shinn would at the very least have a psycological advantage over Yzak from the mere fact that he defeated an opponent that Yzak regards as being in a totally different class than himself...The fact is Shinn defeated Kira and Freedom and whether or not that's a paper victory in your mind is irrelevent to the fact that Yzak may not consider that so..and by virtue of this that accomplishment by Shinn would at the very least rent space in the back of Yzak's mind giving Shinn a psycological advantage from jumpstreet...Not sure what you are talking about in terms of glorification...

Let's clarify glorification. First of all Shin gets superior mobile suits relative to the rest of the cast whereas Yzak got nothing. Shin, being a main character, gets more screen time and ultimately more opportunities to show his talents. Yzak gets few, but despite this, many people on the forum have a good idea what his personality and capabilities are like.

This psychological argument you presented regarding Shin beating Freedom is alright. But also consider the fact that Shin also was psyched out when he discovered how powerful the fighters have become after experieincing the previous war. And Yzak doesn't strike me as the type person who would get gauded by comments like that and nor does Shin strike me as the person who would talk about his beating Freedom while fighting so I really don't know how this argument is relavent when discussing who would beat who in this versus topic.

Doesn't matter...when Yzak had the oppurtunity to defeat STRIKE in a same generation Gundam he failed...It's as simple as that...Fukuda could say pigs can fly, but in the portrayle of GSD it is shown an expressed that FREEDOM is still superior to IMPULSE in speed, manueverabilty, and aramaments...So basically you have Shinn defeating Kira in a lesser Gundam when Yzak couldn't defeat him in a same class Gundam which dives back into the psycological argument I had been trying to express from the very beginning...

I believe I was specific in stating that Fukaku stated Impulse was better than Freedom with the respective packs. At least that's what I remember. I could be wrong in this. But this is not that important.

You can look at the weaponary that Impulse has and it is quite easy to conclude that Blast Impulse is stronger in firepower than Freedom other than the NJC reactor. Sword Impulse seems to have far better melee capability with that anti-ship sword that penetrates shields with ease. And Force Impulse proved that he could at least match Freedom's maneuverbility and speed in the fight on ep 34. Granted, Freedom's wing configuration probably gave it slightly more maneuverbility but I doubt it's that much. I imagined ZAFT engineering probably tried to put in as much of Freedom's maneuverability into Force Impulse when they commissioned.

I seem to recall in the last statement that I said Yzak got the alpha GUNDAM GAT weapon which implies he got the worst of the pack:P. It's not used as justification why he didn't win against Strike. But keep in mind Shin got a very capable GUNDAM when faced up against FREEDOM not to mention his battle strategy training and Kira's self admitted reason that he wasn't fighting to win. I don't want to go into details about that because I have no doubt Kira-fanboys will jump at the opportunity to defend at this.

Once again your incorrect because your ignoring that Abyss is specifically designed for this type of battle...Shinn is fighting at a handicapped disadvantage vs. Abyss in the water conflict...Using unorthodox skills like cutting off all power just to dodge a shot (You think that's part of BLAST's specialized abilities or an impromptu manuever by Shinn?? )..Do you think Yzak could fight against Auel with Duel sitting on it's boogie-board while Auel is shifting unpredictably beneath him?? Just because Yzak (with help mind you) bested a SEED-druggy in some individual instance doesn't mean he could fight outside of his element the way Shinn fought against Auel, even dodging FREEDOM with Auel beneath him...It's not all about the brute strength of opponents it's also about contrasting styles at play...

Not quite my friend...I think I've proven otherwise with just the premise of this post...So save your straw man for the wizard of Oz and Kansas corn-crops...

As I said before, it is very impressive. But Yzak did the same thing when he fought the druggies. He ejected his "exterior" armor to let it explode and did a surprise attack all the while fending the chaos that was going on at the time and saving cagalli at the same time mind you.

And the other point. ABYSS wasn't in water when this happened. :P He was clearly above the water with a big splash of water and explosion and momentarily lost focus I'm guessing which is why he didn't dodge that attack. So I don't buy your argument that he is out of his element.

This business of contrasting styles. You're going to have to explain that. And why that is effective. Sometimes a focused fighting style works very well. Granted, he dodged Freedom's slash and Yzak never did that. But are you willing to bet that Yzak who was in the military between the two years didn't get any better and perhaps might be able to do the same? I'm not suggesting he can but there is that possibility given Yzak's determination to be the best.

Again, I'm not suggesting Shin is inferior to Yzak in fighting ability. It's that I'm not convinced with your arguments. IMO, given Shin's seed mode and a clear resolve, he can take down Yzak. Yzak has not shown to have that capability to transcend; and given theories about SEED mode presented, he may not be capable of it period. I believe that is enough to push Shin over Yzak in piloting ability. Although it is difficult to measure. None of the scenarios you presented convinces me one way or another.

[Obi-Wan]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

As for Rey helping Shinn vs. Neo I accept that because Neo (as Mwu) has shown that he is superior when figting in MA's as oppose to fighting in MS's where he is AWFUL other than .//hackatsuki...

Please back this up a little more, because Mu did good in Strike at Orb and in Space he was a decent support pilot. The only time he was beaten in Strike was by Rau, who nearly beat Kira as well. In fact, Rau also owned Mu when Mu was in his MA, which according to you, he is "far superior" in. It's obvious Rau was too much for Mu to handle, so how does that make him awful as a MS pilot? By that logic, wouldn't Shinn be an awful pilot too because he was trumped by someone better than him in the end? As "Neo", with Windam he fought Shinn to a draw and was instrumental in distracting Kira from taking down the Destroy Gundam. In fact I would say Shinn was able to get a good hit on Destroy because he didn't have Neo and Sting on his back like Kira did.

Neo's Windam was the only Windam in GSD that wasn't a complete POS. He was also one pilot your homie Shinn was never able to beat. Mu is awful in MS? Hm...

[wingdarkness]

^Once Kira changed the OS in STRIKE to Seasame Street Mwu did a decent job, but overall (as Mwu and Neo) he's not a really good MS pilot...He is a legendary MA//grasper pilot and the biggest mistake by Fukuda was even taking him out of where his believability lies...And lets not forget that verses Rau he had the added advantage of Newtype flash to improve his movements in-terms of dodging...Rau never totally owned him in an MA...and if he did ya gotta understand that Rau is an incredible MS pilot so I wouldn't quite give Mwu the advantage even if he is superior by human standards which was my overriding point...Had Mwu been raised in space with a familiarity with MS's as oppsed to atmospheric graspers he may have gained a better adaptivity for it...For the most part he hasn't, especially as Neo...Now if you wanna base Neo's entire performance off of .//hackatsuki, please name your poison...

He was also one pilot your homie Shinn was never able to beat.

I think you need to go back and rewatch the episode where Neo underestimated the Minerva's entire team and was pushing his WINDAM at full power not to die...Thank God Steller jumped from her stationary position on shallow water rocks to save his a$$ when Shinn was about to frag him...Selective memory, hmmm...

@the post below me - As long as we don't venture too far off topic and in the realm of insults this is fine...

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

^Once Kira changed the OS in STRIKE to Seasame Street Mwu did a decent job, but overall (as Mwu and Neo) he's not a really good MS pilot...He is a legendary MA//grasper pilot and the biggest mistake by Fukuda was even taking him out of where his believability lies...And lets not forget that verses Rau he had the added advantage of Newtype flash to improve his movements in-terms of dodging...Rau never totally owned him in an MA...and if he did ya gotta understand that Rau is an incredible MS pilot so I wouldn't quite give Mwu the advantage even if he is superior by human standards which was my overriding point...Had Mwu been raised in space with a familiarity with MS's as oppsed to atmospheric graspers he may have gained a better adaptivity for it...For the most part he hasn't, especially as Neo...Now if you wanna base Neo's entire performance off of .//hackatsuki, please name your poison...

If you really want to continue this, start another thread:P. Moderators these days in this forum are quite quick to delete offtopic posts so your argument will vanish quickly.

[SNT1]

Well since I have the DVD eps I've recently seen the first few episodes (It is fresh in my mind) and in those episodes it is clear than Shinn in overwelming the 3 on 1...It may be true that he got help here and help there, but my point was OVERALL he exhibited abilities trumping the druggies in their intial engagement...If you remember I was trying to dispell the silly myth that because Yzak defeted druggies (with help) in SEED that somehow makes Shinn achievement vs. the extendeds less evident and that, "Yzak > druggie > extended = shinn?" is silly because it's not just about opponents it's about style of fighting...

Shinn didn't overwhelm anyone.... saying so its a stretch. The 3 were more surprised with Impulse's capabilities more than anything, buth thats it. The fact of the matter is Shinn wouldve been dead in Phase 2 if not for Athrun.

Doesn't matter...when Yzak had the oppurtunity to defeat STRIKE in a same generation Gundam he failed...It's as simple as that...Fukuda could say pigs can fly, but in the portrayle of GSD it is shown an expressed that FREEDOM is still superior to IMPULSE in speed, manueverabilty, and aramaments...So basically you have Shinn defeating Kira in a lesser Gundam when Yzak couldn't defeat him in a same class Gundam which dives back into the psycological argument I had been trying to express from the very beginning...

so Yzak < Kira, and Shinn > Kira, therefore Yzak < Shinn? hmmmm.... You're arguement is similar as my Yzak > Druggie > Extended = Shinn, but it seems that you think mine is not valid for some reason... weird.

[wingdarkness]

^Good try, but your problem lies in the fact your taking my quote out of it's original context that was adressing another members' point about Yzak always getting an inferior Mobile Suit...My point was Yzak lost with the same generation Gundam as Kira while Shinn won with a seeming lesser class of Gundam neutralizing that perception...So it's not quite as simple as your comeback statement...


Wow I'm surprised nobody quoted my actual indepth analysis on Shinn vs. Yzak...Am I to believe my points in that examination are pretty damn good?? I'm talking to you too Obi since we discussed this in detail on IRC last night^^...

[SNT1]

^Good try, but your problem lies in the fact your taking my quote out of it's original context that was adressing another members' point about Yzak always getting an inferior Mobile Suit...My point was Yzak lost with the same generation Gundam as Kira while Shinn won with a seeming lesser class of Gundam netralizing that perception...So it's not quite a simple as your comeback statement...

Let's see, Kira was arguably at his best using the Strike (Fllay powered, no-kill policy not quite there yet).... and then the Freedom Kira, who wouldn't try to aim for the cockpit until he starts getting his ass kicked.... Not to mention an in-depth strategy exploiting the weakness thanks to Rey....

not a very fair comparo, wouldn't you say? Shinn's victory was the only true 1v1 victory he had... the rest were, well, lol.

And my point comes to this: Can Shinn really win again against Kira, with the same MSes?
Well, Yzak can't as proven on the show, and Shinn definitely never won against Kira again ever, which puts Yzak and Shinn on equal terms.

Its blurry at best, since we dont really see how yzak progressed his fighting, if anything he is almost just as good as Athrun at what he does (fighting not emoing).

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

^Good try, but your problem lies in the fact your taking my quote out of it's original context that was adressing another members' point about Yzak always getting an inferior Mobile Suit...My point was Yzak lost with the same generation Gundam as Kira while Shinn won with a seeming lesser class of Gundam neutralizing that perception...So it's not quite as simple as your comeback statement...


Wow I'm surprised nobody quoted my actual indepth analysis on Shinn vs. Yzak...Am I to believe my points in that examination are pretty damn good?? I'm talking to you too Obi since we discussed this in detail on IRC last night^^...

To be honest, I had trouble understanding it so I didn't bother. I accepted Mr. Papers arguments a little more easily of why Shin can beat Yzak but your arguments was a little confusing to read.

If you have time, rewrite

[_X12A_Testament]

I think Yzak has the potential to be more powerful, if he is given the chance. Seed-mode is crucial, and seems to center around what the pilots fight for. Yzak isn't clear on what he fights for, thus no seed. Like Shinn, anger is a motivator but it wasn't strong enough, or developed enough. Shinn had a stronger motivator for seed. The thing is I don't think losing anyone would help Yzak gain seed like Shinn, because it seems like Yzak's power would come from within.

Kinda like and extrovert vs. an introvert. The motivator for Yzak's seed mode would have to be something happening to him as opposed to an outside person.
What could be the motivator though? His own failures? Some kind of epiphany resulting in the sheer WILL not to fail again. That could be cool.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by SNT1

Let's see, Kira was arguably at his best using the Strike (Fllay powered, no-kill policy not quite there yet).... and then the Freedom Kira, who wouldn't try to aim for the cockpit until he starts getting his ass kicked.... Not to mention an in-depth strategy exploiting the weakness thanks to Rey....

not a very fair comparo, wouldn't you say? Shinn's victory was the only true 1v1 victory he had... the rest were, well, lol.

Yeah it's his only true victory, so lets marginalize it....Good strategy ...

Remember Freedom gives Kira the abilty to fight the way he does, without it he couldn't be cockpit ignorant Fllay-powered or not...He says this himself that he cannot fight the way he needs to without his "sword"...Even Kira with all his Godly-ness looked somewhat pedestrian when using Strike Rouge...Fllay-powered Kira (The best and by far my favorite version of Kira) fighting Yzak in the same generation Gundam isn't that far off from GSD Kira who pwns evenmore effortlessly without a killing mentality...Give Shinn some credit, I know it's hard to do with the hate-swelling in your heart, but you'll find it answers these questions much clearer...

And my point comes to this: Can Shinn really win again against Kira, with the same MSes?
Well, Yzak can't as proven on the show, and Shinn definitely never won against Kira again ever, which puts Yzak and Shinn on equal terms.

I'm putting that quote in my Max Headroom Supercomputer and waiting for a response...

Max says: "P-p-p-p-p-p-please...."

So Shinn has to beat Kira 2 times?? Why stop there?? Why not 3 or 4 or 12?? So Yzak never could and Shinn has, thus they're equal?

Originally Posted by X12A_Testament

The motivator for Yzak's seed mode would have to be something happening to him as opposed to an outside person.
What could be the motivator though? His own failures? Some kind of epiphany resulting in the sheer WILL not to fail again. That could be cool

I would kind of liken Yzak's potential SEED-mode (which I think he'll never have because I explained his mentality starts at anger while most others have to travel far to get to that point) to Vegeta becoming a SSJ...Stick with me here, just using a similiar principle...Vegeta didn't become a SSJ until he stopped caring and obsessing over it so much...He is also a character that because he's angry all the time he has no capacity for using his anger to elevate his state...I think the only scenerio for Yzak to go SEED would be for him to stop caring about his life or fear of death (which he shows with non-verbals all thru-out SEED)..It's just a wacko theory, but I think it would be the only way...

[SNT1]

Give Shinn some credit, I know it's hard to do with the hate-swelling in your heart, but you'll find it answers these questions much clearer...

I'll give him some credit for killing lots of stationary Windams and Destroys, but he is nowhere as good as the original characters and no, I dont hate Shinn, I just dont think he is a good pilot.

So Shinn has to beat Kira 2 times?? Why stop there?? Why not 3 or 4 or 12?? So Yzak never could and Shinn has, thus they're equal?

what I mean is, set up a stage, Kira vs Shinn, whatever MSes, no distractions. Guess what the outcome will be like? Yes, Kira trumps Shinn. Again, Shinn won because he had studied Kira's moves and basically gambled to the fact that he wont ever get shot in the cockpit. Yzak does NOT have these habits. I would assume his skills in GSD are comparable to Athrun.

You're just giving Shinn way too much credit...

as for Yzak and SEED mode, I don't think he needs it.

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by SNT1

I'll give him some credit for killing lots of stationary Windams and Destroys, but he is nowhere as good as the original characters and no, I dont hate Shinn, I just dont think he is a good pilot.




what I mean is, set up a stage, Kira vs Shinn, whatever MSes, no distractions. Guess what the outcome will be like? Yes, Kira trumps Shinn. Again, Shinn won because he had studied Kira's moves and basically gambled to the fact that he wont ever get shot in the cockpit. Yzak does NOT have these habits. I would assume his skills in GSD are comparable to Athrun.

You're just giving Shinn way too much credit...

as for Yzak and SEED mode, I don't think he needs it.

You're asking for sometihng impossible to be done. It's impossible to set up a stage of equal gundams. The show has run its course and it's over. They clearly are not going ot fight for fun. You gotta make due with what's there. And your rational arguments are all opinions with no backings. It's all about, "I don't think this" and "that". Granted, they are your opinions and you are entitled but if you are set on convincing someone else, at least present something solid.

Why doesn't Yzak need SEED mode?
Shin may be given too much credit but at least give some reasonings.

[SNT1]

You're asking for sometihng impossible to be done. It's impossible to set up a stage of equal gundams. The show has run its course and it's over. They clearly are not going ot fight for fun. You gotta make due with what's there. And your rational arguments are all opinions with no backings. It's all about, "I don't think this" and "that". Granted, they are your opinions and you are entitled but if you are set on convincing someone else, at least present something solid.

what solid evidence do you need? That shinn sucked for the majority of the show? Or that Yzak in GSD held off MSes better than his?

Since Yzak and Shinn never faced each other, it will all be "I think this" and "I think that."

Yzak dont need a SEED mode to fight Shinn the same way Athrun didn't need SEED to keep him at bay. Too damn good for Shinn.

[Obi-Wan]

Reviewing episode 2, all of the people who claim Shinn was clearly the winner of the 3-on-1 is sorely mistaken. First of all, Shinn is fighting against Gaia for about 85% of the colony battle. Sting and Auel watch from a distance for a while before deciding to enter the fray. At this point Shinn is knocked down and almost killed by Auel if not for Athrun stepping in and taking a few hits for him. Then, Shinn pursues the stolen Gundams into the air and is forced on the defensive for almost the entire time until Rey shows up. Even then, he is still blocking Chaos' rifle shots and missiles. Chaos even slices his giant sword in half.

After he switches to the Force pack, he attacks Sting head on, putting Sting on the defensive now, but does not land any shots. He slams into Auel with his shield, and then when he tries to attack Stella, that is when Sting blows a hole in the colony.

So to review, inside the colony, Shinn fights toe-to-toe with Gaia for most of the fight. Sting and Auel jump in and Shinn is immediately thrown off by the disadvantage and has to be bailed out by Athrun. After Athrun's ZAKU is damaged and he has to leave, Shinn is again victim of the mismatch and only manages a few boomerang throws to go along with dodging everything Sting and Auel throw at him. Rey shows up and takes on Auel, leaving Shinn to deal with Sting. Sting beats Shinn via making him lose the giant sword, leaving him with no weapons left on that pack. Shinn switches to the Force pack and he fires a few rounds at Sting, which Sting dodges. He smashes into Auel with his shield, which does absolutely nothing to damage Abyss, and he doesn't get a chance to attack Stella because Sting blasts open the colony.

Yes, Shinn clearly won the 3-on-1...

The way I see it, it's either Extendeds > Shinn or Extendeds = Shinn in that fight.

[wingdarkness]

^I didn't say he clearly won...I said he clearly overwhelmed them OVERALL in 1v1 and sortie(If he doesn't how the hell does he survive an interval paced 3v1?) ...That does not equate him destroying them or the fact that Shinn looked bada$$ in alot of those scenes (which you would probably admit when you had no clue he would end up being a character you hated)...Lets just cut the tick for tack $hittyness...If a Shinn person watches that scene they'll highlight the good features and if a Shinn hater like yourself who hates Shinn in every categorey regardless of everything looks at this scene they will highlight the negative factors to make it larger than life...I've seen that scene countless times aswell and could counter your argument easily aswell...Full of $hit as usual (It was some good $hit though^^)...For the MOST PART Shinn put the extendeds on the defensive in that fight handling pretty much their entire barrage where he did much more than simply survive (Athrun 1 save, Rey one help, Luna basically nothing, but yeah that equates the entire fight )...Yeah thanks goes to Athrun for his contribution, but Athrun saves Shinn's a$$ so the rest of Shinn's antics are obsolete?? Then every C.E. fighter who ever nearly escaped death because they were helped can't be given any credit either...Which means Kira<Druggies because Athrun saved his a$$ in SEED, same as Shinn...F*ck everything that happened after that right??

Again who said he clearly won?? Please provide a quote...