Character Discussion - Lelouch

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Hooves

He may be really unlucky, but he was still able to pull off the stunt that would bring the world peace (for now??) so that's probably what made him a genius in my opinion.

Yeah. He was improbably lucky there. That thing with Schneizel? Worked only because of Schneizel's sudden Bond Villain Stupidity onset. And he was lucky Kallen didn't spoil the plan the way Suzaku had done to him so many times before.

Really, had he that kind of luck earlier on, he would have been able to win with much less damage caused.

But with him being screwed up, I think that was before Nunnally's apparent demise. With the apparent betrayal from his best friend Suzaku, that's when I saw that Lelouch lost it.

He did lose it a bit more there. But he was still brought back one last time when Kallen came in to get him and console him. But that of course was right before the Black Knights openly turned on him. That was the breaking point. The only thing he thought of before Rolo saved him from out of nowhere was getting Kallen spared from his fate.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I say he lost it when his father told him to go and die as a child! xD

Well, actually, it really is difficult to say with Lelouch. I suppose if either Shirley or Nunnally had been around or even a C.C. with her memories intact, the chances for Zero Requiem would have decreased drastically. Suzaku seemingly betraying him was also pretty bad, but I bevlieve he could have recovered from that under different circumstances - at least to a notable extent.

I'd say it was also being without Kallen, his one true confidant. First getting captured by Suzaku, then her getting caught in the Black Knights' line of fire to the point where Lelouch had to lie to have her spared. With everything else that had transpired, the second time was pretty much the last ever.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

I'd say it was also being without Kallen, his one true confidant. First getting captured by Suzaku, then her getting caught in the Black Knights' line of fire to the point where Lelouch had to lie to have her spared. With everything else that had transpired, the second time was pretty much the last ever.

Well, sure, Kallen also was a factor, but technically, she was there (and had her memories intact) - she just wasn't able to change anything because the BK went nuts and Lelouch is almost as good a liar as Schneizel, so I didn't count her in.

One true confidant? I don't know, I'd have given that title to C.C., but then again, he talks to them about different things.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, sure, Kallen also was a factor, but technically, she was there (and had her memories intact) - she just wasn't able to change anything because the BK went nuts and Lelouch is almost as good a liar as Schneizel, so I didn't count her in.

One true confidant? I don't know, I'd have given that title to C.C., but then again, he talks to them about different things.

Does anyone feel that after the Zero Requiem which resulted in Lelouch's death, his body( as well as C.C.) disappeared, in the same manner as Charles x Marianne?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Does anyone feel that after the Zero Requiem which resulted in Lelouch's death, his body( as well as C.C.) disappeared, in the same manner as Charles x Marianne?

not likely,
its more likely that they buried him somewhere in secret.

either that, or they stuffed hm and mounted him.

[aMpED]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Does anyone feel that after the Zero Requiem which resulted in Lelouch's death, his body( as well as C.C.) disappeared, in the same manner as Charles x Marianne?

C.C.'s clearly shown after Zero Requiem -___-

[Butter Fly]

After the Zero Requiem, C.C talked with Lulu and called Lulu's name, does that mean he was alive?

[morbosfist]

No, she was just talking to herself.

[Meatrose]

Originally Posted by Butter Fly

After the Zero Requiem, C.C talked with Lulu and called Lulu's name, does that mean he was alive?

Nope. What she said was adressed to him so to speak but she was not having a conversation with him. Her final monologue in the compilation movie also confirms that he did in fact pass away. And, well, in the Kiseki no Tanjoubi live picture drama (a "crack" picture drama set post Zero Requiem) he showed up as a ghost along with ghost Rolo and ghost Shirley and in the end they faded away once more. Sure, it was obviously just a crack PD but it was set post Turn 25 nonetheless and they wouldn't have had him show up as a ghost along with other dead characters if they wanted to leave it up to the audience to decide for themselves whether he was alive or not.

As a matter of fact, the creators have stated over and over again that Lelouch is dead. Some people misinterpreted one of their statements and thought that they meant for the end to be open, which was totally not the case. They said that Lelouch dying was something they completely agreed on and that it had been decided early on, what they wanted the viewer to decide for him- or herself was whether or not it was a good end despite him dying. They personally think of it as a happy ending cause when he passed away he knew that Nunnally, Kallen and the others would be able to live peacefully in the world he created for them.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by Meatrose

Nope. What she said was adressed to him so to speak but she was not having a conversation with him. Her final monologue in the compilation movie also confirms that he did in fact pass away. And, well, in the Kiseki no Tanjoubi live picture drama (a "crack" picture drama set post Zero Requiem) he showed up as a ghost along with ghost Rolo and ghost Shirley and in the end they faded away once more. Sure, it was obviously just a crack PD but it was set post Turn 25 nonetheless and they wouldn't have had him show up as a ghost along with other dead characters if they wanted to leave it up to the audience to decide for themselves whether he was alive or not.

As a matter of fact, the creators have stated over and over again that Lelouch is dead. Some people misinterpreted one of their statements and thought that they meant for the end to be open, which was totally not the case. They said that Lelouch dying was something they completely agreed on and that it had been decided early on, what they wanted the viewer to decide for him- or herself was whether or not it was a good end despite him dying. They personally think of it as a happy ending cause when he passed away he knew that Nunnally, Kallen and the others would be able to live peacefully in the world he created for them.

I certainly hope that Akito (the new protagonist in the next Code Geass anime) is not as crazy as Lelouch in wanting to die for the sake of creating a better world. Everything that Lelouch did pointed towards that angery 10 year-old boy(within him) who wanted to destroy his father's ambition following Marianne's death. To me, the 10-year old Lelouch(The Demon King) was present all along. The power of the Geass allowed him to fulfill his dream of his ideal world. Although without his Geass, I doubt that he would be alive to make his wish come true. At least, not before Charles' Ragonok comes to fruition.

[Butter Fly]

Thanks morbosfist and Meatrose

I hope the same that Akito is smart Lulu was too cuute to be killed.
But in one of the episodes near the zero requiem or the same episode, they showed C.C doing some sort of a prayer, what was that for?

[azul120]

Moved from other thread.

@GundamFan0083:

You're reading too much into that event. Lelouch was reeling from his revelation regarding Nunnally, and how she (at the moment, at least) didn't need his protection. He wasn't himself in the very least.

If Lelouch really didn't care for Kallen, would he have: asked her to promise to come back with him to Ashford when it was all over, almost decided to go back for her when Xing-ke had captured her and risk failing the current mission, or later apologize for not having her freed earlier in Turn 19? Kallen had been dubbed one of the pillars of his existence, and it was because of that that Lelouch didn't want her to go down with him.

I agree that Lelouch took the cowardly way out, but it was also his isolation that did him in, namely Nunnally's apparent demise, and the Black Knights turning on him, which of course included him getting separated from Kallen, the one among the core who still believed in him. (The UFN trio don't count here.) But of course, he couldn't really help it too much. He was still a teenager, one who had been born under an unlucky star, with no real parents to guide him either. Teens have committed suicide for more trivial reasons.

Anyways, regarding DoD, I think you were off on Kallen's feelings and reactions toward his reappearance. She should have felt an air of reassurance from him, not condescension. He may be haughty, but he's never contemptuous like that.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by azul120

Moved from other thread.

@GundamFan0083:

You're reading too much into that event. Lelouch was reeling from his revelation regarding Nunnally, and how she (at the moment, at least) didn't need his protection. He wasn't himself in the very least.

I think he was himself, just not in control of himself as usual.
He wanted something to make him forget.
At first that was refrain, but when Kallen showed up he started thinking that sex could ease his pain.
And Kallen had just told him she'd do whatever he commanded (she was thinking in terms of Zero's type of commands I know), thus he commanded her to comfort him.
That shows a total lack of respect for her, there's no two ways about it.

If Lelouch really didn't care for Kallen, would he have: asked her to promise to come back with him to Ashford when it was all over, almost decided to go back for her when Xing-ke had captured her and risk failing the current mission, or later apologize for not having her freed earlier in Turn 19? Kallen had been dubbed one of the pillars of his existence, and it was because of that that Lelouch didn't want her to go down with him.

He wanted to help Kallen to live her own life.
The part about going back to Ashford was just wishful thinking.
He said the same thing to CC and she joked about being the head of the Pizza club.
It was just what Lelouch actually dreamt of having.
That being a normal life with ALL of his friends back at Ashford.

His desire to retrieve the best Ace pilot in the Black Knights was a military decision, not an emotional one.
He apologized to her because he DID take a long time to get her back.
Kallen was a pillar of Lelouch's existence because without her abilities as a KMF pilot, Suzaku would have defeated Lelouch on numerous occations.
Again, this points to Lelouch needing Kallen's abilities as a Knightmare Devicer, not as a girlfriend/love-interest.
Lelouch didn't want her going down with him for the same reason he didn't take Jeremiah, Anya, CC, Nunnally, Schneizel, or poor Suzaku down with him.
He'd killed and hurt enough of his friends and family, he didn't want anyone else getting hurt.
He knew full well (from the incident in ep 7, and ep 19) that Kallen would follow him to the depths of hell if he asked her, and obviously he didn't want that on his conscience by the end of the series.
He had to reject her, not because he was in love with her, but because he knew she was in love with him and he couldn't bare hurting anyone else.
Not even Schneizel or Cornelia, both of which deserved punishment.

I agree that Lelouch took the cowardly way out, but it was also his isolation that did him in, namely Nunnally's apparent demise, and the Black Knights turning on him, which of course included him getting separated from Kallen, the one among the core who still believed in him. (The UFN trio don't count here.) But of course, he couldn't really help it too much. He was still a teenager, one who had been born under an unlucky star, with no real parents to guide him either. Teens have committed suicide for more trivial reasons.

Most teens lack the measure of control Lelouch possessed.
As Okouchi points out in the article involving Lelouch's sex life, the boy was so focused and so in control of himself that he didn't have thoughts of sex or anything but his rebellion.
I suppose Okouchi could have made it more clear that Lelouch was lost without his rebellion and thus turned to suicide, but that was never done in the anime so we're left with what we have...and what we have doesn't support his actions very well.

Anyways, regarding DoD, I think you were off on Kallen's feelings and reactions toward his reappearance. She should have felt an air of reassurance from him, not condescension. He may be haughty, but he's never contemptuous like that.

I gave that many hours of thought before writing the story.
Kallen's song at the end of the series is what galvanized my decision to have her flip out about seeing him alive (and with C2) at the end of the DoD.
The way Kallen is portrayed in her song is a person completely obsessed with Lelouch.

Extolling the Brave Chivalry of Youth*

Until I met you, I was only merely plastered with thorns.
I wanted to change this truth.
I seethingly and recklessly acted. But then, I didn’t believe that anything would come out of it.

When my brother was gone,
I heard the sound of the heavy doors closing behind me.
I cannot allow it. I will fight to the bitter end. I decided that I would not go back.
Then, someday, I would have died like my brother.

Until the very end, Kouzuki Kallen would not abide by authority.
That bit of willpower I was carrying with me, it slipped away from me, and I can feel it faintly.
At that moment, I envisioned you as the star at the break of dawn, inviting me.

If I would think that this is for you, my body would feel light.
Whatever struggles there were, the pain would go away.
I would be the first to come rushing to your battlefield,
raging like a lioness, crushing your enemies.
I would stand being muddied so that I could create a path for you.

Looking back, it's mysterious.
Even though I should have loathed and rebelled against Britannia's tyranny.
Without knowing it, I held personal devotion only for you.

Lelouch, that parting kiss,
even if it was a lie, if you had said, "I love you," **
I would even follow you to hell.
You knew that, didn't you?

It's not like you.
You're good at manipulating people just by your words.
Really, it's not like you to be kind.
Is that why you told me to 'live on'?
I fell in love with you*** not just because of that kindness.

Someone who writes a poem/song like that thinking the person is dead and gone to save the world, wouldn't take rumors of that person being alive very well, nor would said person be able to take (emotionally) the revelation that the person you're obessessed with emotionally is still alive and with another woman...your romantic rival no less.
I reckoned that Kallen would blow a gasket if she caught CC and Lelouch together after moping over him for years.

Letting her go was the least Lelouch could do for her.
I didn't say Lelouch was cruel or evil, I said he was an asshole.
Kind of like Space Pirate Captain Harlock or Char Aznable.
They're both heroes in their own right (as is Lelouch) but they are also both very selfish, self-centered men (Harlock and Char) who do what they do for their own reasons.
Lelouch is the same way, as was CC.
Based on everything I've read and seen of Kallen's character she was too good for the kind of character that followed "the path of blood" or felt "it wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world."
Again, don't misunderstand me, I like Lelouch very much, but I like Kallen more and would never pair her with him (again) for the simple fact that she deserves far better.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I think he was himself, just not in control of himself as usual.
He wanted something to make him forget.
At first that was refrain, but when Kallen showed up he started thinking that sex could ease his pain.
And Kallen had just told him she'd do whatever he commanded (she was thinking in terms of Zero's type of commands I know), thus he commanded her to comfort him.
That shows a total lack of respect for her, there's no two ways about it.

Regardless, he was really depressed at the time. He snapped out of it when she slapped him, and would have chased her down if not for Rolo.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

He wanted to help Kallen to live her own life.
The part about going back to Ashford was just wishful thinking.
He said the same thing to CC and she joked about being the head of the Pizza club.
It was just what Lelouch actually dreamt of having.
That being a normal life with ALL of his friends back at Ashford.

When did he ever say something like that to CC?

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

His desire to retrieve the best Ace pilot in the Black Knights was a military decision, not an emotional one.
He apologized to her because he DID take a long time to get her back.
Kallen was a pillar of Lelouch's existence because without her abilities as a KMF pilot, Suzaku would have defeated Lelouch on numerous occations.
Again, this points to Lelouch needing Kallen's abilities as a Knightmare Devicer, not as a girlfriend/love-interest.
Lelouch didn't want her going down with him for the same reason he didn't take Jeremiah, Anya, CC, Nunnally, Schneizel, or poor Suzaku down with him.
He'd killed and hurt enough of his friends and family, he didn't want anyone else getting hurt.
He knew full well (from the incident in ep 7, and ep 19) that Kallen would follow him to the depths of hell if he asked her, and obviously he didn't want that on his conscience by the end of the series.
He had to reject her, not because he was in love with her, but because he knew she was in love with him and he couldn't bare hurting anyone else.
Not even Schneizel or Cornelia, both of which deserved punishment.

Sorry, this is pure bull. It utterly ignores the context of every single scene referenced.

His desire to save Kallen is purely an emotional one. If you come to any other conclusion from that scene, it's a deliberate misinterpretation. Diethard even points it out: one soldier, no matter how good, isn't worth the army. Lelouch flat-out ignores that.

The pillar of existence thing is also nonsense. He uses the same comparison with Nunnally and Suzaku, examples so disparate that there is no comparison other than that of an intense personal connection. To imply that he would rank a mere military asset in this is absurd.

As for hurting people, Jeremiah clearly supported Lelouch's regime right to the end. Obviously Lelouch didn't do anything to get rid of him. Cornelia evaded capture, so no need. Schneizel, in case it isn't obvious, is a freaking slave. How is that not punishing him?

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I gave that many hours of thought before writing the story.
Kallen's song at the end of the series is what galvanized my decision to have her flip out about seeing him alive (and with C2) at the end of the DoD.
The way Kallen is portrayed in her song is a person completely obsessed with Lelouch.

Letting her go was the least Lelouch could do for her.
I didn't say Lelouch was cruel or evil, I said he was an asshole.
Kind of like Space Pirate Captain Harlock or Char Aznable.
They're both heroes in their own right (as is Lelouch) but they are also both very selfish, self-centered men (Harlock and Char) who do what they do for their own reasons.
Lelouch is the same way, as was CC.
Based on everything I've read and seen of Kallen's character she was too good for the kind of character that followed "the path of blood" or felt "it wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world."
Again, don't misunderstand me, I like Lelouch very much, but I like Kallen more and would never pair her with him for the simple fact that she deserves far better.

Kallen was all-too willing to follow the path of blood before meeting Lelouch. The only difference is he crosses the bigger lines she and her group never considered (or could). The idea that she's too good for him sounds like an excuse, really. Lelouch isn't so horrible that he's undeserving, especially when she's actually there for him. Things go to hell after she's captured.

[azul120]

morbosfist summed up everything else pretty well, so I'll just address this:

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I gave that many hours of thought before writing the story.
Kallen's song at the end of the series is what galvanized my decision to have her flip out about seeing him alive (and with C2) at the end of the DoD.
The way Kallen is portrayed in her song is a person completely obsessed with Lelouch.





Someone who writes a poem/song like that thinking the person is dead and gone to save the world, wouldn't take rumors of that person being alive very well, nor would said person be able to take (emotionally) the revelation that the person you're obessessed with emotionally is still alive and with another woman...your romantic rival no less.
I reckoned that Kallen would blow a gasket if she caught CC and Lelouch together after moping over him for years.

I was referring to Lelouch reappearing in his Zero guise, and Kallen being all, "Oh, what a prick!"

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Regardless, he was really depressed at the time. He snapped out of it when she slapped him, and would have chased her down if not for Rolo.

No he didn't.
There is nothing to suggest he would have chased after Kallen.
I even popped my DVD in to check the scene out completely.
Lelouch starts towards where Kallen ran off, then stops himself before Rolo shows up, clenches his fist, and then is startled by Rolo standing in front of him.
So, no, Rolo didn't stop him and your comment about him chasing her down is pure fanfiction.

When did he ever say something like that to CC?

It's in Newtype magazine when CC is recalling Lelouch telling her about a dream he had.

Sorry, this is pure bull. It utterly ignores the context of every single scene referenced.

His desire to save Kallen is purely an emotional one. If you come to any other conclusion from that scene, it's a deliberate misinterpretation. Diethard even points it out: one soldier, no matter how good, isn't worth the army. Lelouch flat-out ignores that.

Stop pushing your Kalulu nonsense on me Morobosfist.
Lelouch was making a military decision, and Deitard was hardly a military tactician by any measure.
Yes, Kallen was worth more than ALL of the other Black Knight pilots, and Lelouch knew it, so stop reading more into it than is actually there in the series.
He said she was his Queen of battle that's why from the very begining she was Q1.
Go back and watch the series again, and this time take your Kalulu glasses off.

The pillar of existence thing is also nonsense. He uses the same comparison with Nunnally and Suzaku, examples so disparate that there is no comparison other than that of an intense personal connection. To imply that he would rank a mere military asset in this is absurd.

No, it isn't absurd.
What's absurd is that you're using the preview to episode 23 like it's somekind of source material or inside information and that's ridiculous.
I had forgotten where the "pillars of life" speech came from until I went back through the Romance Thread (part 4) here and found it.
Using that speech as the cornerstone for somekind of "Lelouch loved Kallen" argument is pure idiocy.
It's what's called "grasping at straws."
If Kalulu's have to nit-pick and dig this deep to defend this pairing, then clearly there's no substance to their position except what they wish to perceive.

As for hurting people, Jeremiah clearly supported Lelouch's regime right to the end. Obviously Lelouch didn't do anything to get rid of him. Cornelia evaded capture, so no need. Schneizel, in case it isn't obvious, is a freaking slave. How is that not punishing him?

Again you're making gross assumptions that have no basis in fact.

How did Cornelia avoid capture?
Where was that said in the series?
She was in a hospital, pretty easy to find if you're Emperor Lelouch.
Her attempt at a "coup" at the end of ep 25 wasn't clearly defined as being real so you can't make that kind of statement (that she evaded capture) unless you can prove it.
Lelouch could just as easily have used her to make his death look all the more real and Zero's attack all the more legit, instead of the set-up by Lelouch that it actually was.
However, we don't know if her attack was real or contrived because it isn't explained in the series.

Schneizel killed plenty of people in Code Geass, he deserved death.
He's hardly a slave considering what a slave actually is.
He may be the unwilling ally of Zero, sure, but slave of Suzaku, no.
Don't blow what Lelouch commanded Schneizel out of proportion.
It's bad enough the Geass command was very badly written and feels more like an ass pull by Okouchi than anything else, we don't need to exacerbate the sheer abiguity of the command or the flaws inherent in it.

Kallen was all-too willing to follow the path of blood before meeting Lelouch. The only difference is he crosses the bigger lines she and her group never considered (or could). The idea that she's too good for him sounds like an excuse, really. Lelouch isn't so horrible that he's undeserving, especially when she's actually there for him. Things go to hell after she's captured.

Which supports the point I made above.
Everything goes to hell once Kallen is captured.
Why?
Because she is the best damn pilot of the Black Knights and Lelouch knows this.
Without Kallen's KMF abilities, Lelouch would never have been able to pull off his Rebellion.

Her being too good for Lelouch only sounds like an excuse to Kalulus, because to them there is no room for alternatives, only the fanfictional universe of Kallen x Lelouch.

Methinks that this post by Maurox over at MAL is a fine analysis of the problem of Lelouch x Karen.

I like Kallen very much, which is why I have come to feverently dislike Kalulu.
It's a pairing that requires so much inuendo, cherry-picking, character-personality-twisting, and fanon that I've lost all respect for it.
That said, I see nothing else left to discuss on the matter.

@azul120:
Kallen does not know Lelouch is alive in DoD until episode 26 (the very last episode).
If you mean an episode/chapter of Chronicles or Alpha and Omega, then I'd like to know which one.
Especially since I explore Kalulu in Chronicles of Tartarus and bring it to what I see as its logical conclusion in the begining of Alpha and Omega.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No he didn't.
There is nothing to suggest he would have chased after Kallen.
I even popped my DVD in to check the scene out completely.
Lelouch starts towards where Kallen ran off, then stops himself before Rolo shows up, clenches his fist, and then is startled by Rolo standing in front of him.
So, no, Rolo didn't stop him and your comment about him chasing her down is pure fanfiction.

Not quite. He stops himself, as you said, but then tries to run again. You can see this because he stumbles forward slightly when caught off-guard by Rolo. He was going to go after her.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

It's in Newtype magazine when CC is recalling Lelouch telling her about a dream he had.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Stop pushing your Kalulu nonsense on me Morobosfist.
Lelouch was making a military decision, and Deitard was hardly a military tactician by any measure.
Yes, Kallen was worth more than ALL of the other Black Knight pilots, and Lelouch knew it, so stop reading more into it than is actually there in the series.
He said she was his Queen of battle that's why from the very begining she was Q1.
Go back and watch the series again, and this time take your Kalulu glasses off.

Sorry, but yours is the position that's complete bull. His declaration is purely emotional, and you have to be blind to claim otherwise. I don't need glasses to see the obvious, but you could use some if you honestly think that panicked declaration was over the loss of a single military asset.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No, it isn't absurd.
What's absurd is that you're using the preview to episode 23 like it's somekind of source material or inside information and that's ridiculous.
I had forgotten where the "pillars of life" speech came from until I went back through the Romance Thread (part 4) here and found it.
Using that speech as the cornerstone for somekind of "Lelouch loved Kallen" argument is pure idiocy.
It's what's called "grasping at straws."
If Kalulu's have to nit-pick and dig this deep to defend this pairing, then clearly there's no substance to their position except what they wish to perceive.

I never brought it up in the first place, I only countered your flawed assessment that Lelouch would somehow classify Kallen as a pillar of his existence when she's just a military asset to him. It isn't necessary to the main point, which is that Lelouch cares for her far more than you want to admit.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Again you're making gross assumptions that have no basis in fact.

How did Cornelia avoid capture?
Where was that said in the series?
She was in a hospital, pretty easy to find if you're Emperor Lelouch.
Her attempt at a "coup" at the end of ep 25 wasn't clearly defined as being real so you can't make that kind of statement (that she evaded capture) unless you can prove it.
Lelouch could just as easily have used her to make his death look all the more real and Zero's attack all the more legit, instead of the set-up by Lelouch that it actually was.
However, we don't know if her attack was real or contrived because it isn't explained in the series.

Assumptions go both ways. How do you know she didn't avoid capture? She had ample time to haul ass with everyone on Horai island when the news of Lelouch's victory was broadcast. Your idea that the whole coup attempt is some sort of set-up is even more far-fetched. Pot calling the kettle black.

How did she avoid capture? We cannot say. But based on what evidence there is, she obviously did. Anything more than that is an assumption.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Schneizel killed plenty of people in Code Geass, he deserved death.
He's hardly a slave considering what a slave actually is.
He may be the unwilling ally of Zero, sure, but slave of Suzaku, no.
Don't blow what Lelouch commanded Schneizel out of proportion.
It's bad enough the Geass command was very badly written and feels more like an ass pull by Okouchi than anything else, we don't need to exacerbate the sheer abiguity of the command or the flaws inherent in it.

Loopholes aside, Schneizel has been forced into unending servitude to a single individual. That's as close to the definition of a slave as you can get. Doesn't matter if he's treated well, his situation remains the same.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Which supports the point I made above.
Everything goes to hell once Kallen is captured.
Why?
Because she is the best damn pilot of the Black Knights and Lelouch knows this.
Without Kallen's KMF abilities, Lelouch would never have been able to pull off his Rebellion.

Then you've missed my point. Things don't go to hell because she isn't there as a pilot, they go to hell because there's no one around who will keep him in line. He left for Japan to deal with the train network and to prepare for Kallen's eventual rescue. Assuming she wasn't captured, events would probably play out the same, up to Shirley's death. If someone other than C.C. had been there for him past that, he may very well have been prevented from flying off the handle like he did, and from then on things don't get nearly as bad.

Of course, such a situation does raise the legitimate issue of how he'd win against the Albion, but my point lies toward the emotional, not military.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Not quite. He stops himself, as you said, but then tries to run again. You can see this because he stumbles forward slightly when caught off-guard by Rolo. He was going to go after her.

That's a huge leap of speculation.
Using that logic you could say that Lelouch was in love with Rolo because he keeps begging him not to use his Geass to save Lelouch.
Or perhaps he was in love with the Tianzi, which was part of why he steals her away from being wed to Odysseyus.
That is of course ridiculous, but then again, so is assuming Lelouch would have gone after Kallen simply because Rolo startles him.
Even if that were not the case, Lelouch going after Kallen could simply be to apologize to his friend, which is all she is portrayed as being to him.
Reading farther into it by trying to imply he was going to chase her because he loved her is too far of a stretch to hold any merit.
This is why Lelouch x Kallen is ridiculed the way it is.
It's because the level of nit-picking to support it is so high.
Whereas with say Shirley, Lelouch balls his eyes out and commands her not to die.
He agrees to go on a date with her.
Kisses her in the rain to comfort her, and remarks in the Newtype dream story (to CC) that Shirley gives him "a funny feeling inside."
In that same dream he describes Kallen as "a crab-headed monster."
I grant you that Okouchi was teasing the Kallen fans a bit, and threw you all a bone at the end when Kallen kisses Lelouch, but that's all it ever was--a bone thrown to the Kalulu fans.

Sorry, but yours is the position that's complete bull. His declaration is purely emotional, and you have to be blind to claim otherwise. I don't need glasses to see the obvious, but you could use some if you honestly think that panicked declaration was over the loss of a single military asset.

Oh, then by that logic he must have had considerably strong feelings for Tohdoh when he risks the Black Knights to go and save him from the Britannians in S1.
After all, Tohdoh was just one soldier, and Lelouch does attack a major Britannian installation to free him.

You see, your point lacks merit when compared to Lelouch's other actions in the anime.
Lelouch is portrayed as willing to risk considerable resources to retain his best fighters.
Unless of course you're trying to convince me that Lelouch was in love with Tohdoh also.

I never brought it up in the first place, I only countered your flawed assessment that Lelouch would somehow classify Kallen as a pillar of his existence when she's just a military asset to him. It isn't necessary to the main point, which is that Lelouch cares for her far more than you want to admit.

No, the only thing flawed is trying to use what is obstensibly a "in the next episode of Geass" as a basis for your argument.
Using the "pillars of his life" from the preview is nonsensical and only helps discredit the theory that Lelouch was in love with Kallen.

Assumptions go both ways. How do you know she didn't avoid capture? She had ample time to haul ass with everyone on Horai island when the news of Lelouch's victory was broadcast. Your idea that the whole coup attempt is some sort of set-up is even more far-fetched. Pot calling the kettle black.

How did she avoid capture? We cannot say. But based on what evidence there is, she obviously did. Anything more than that is an assumption.

Far-fetched?
No, it is as valid as any other possiblity.
But, that was not my point.
My point was that you're grasping at straws with the statement and only further undermining your position.
However, in all fairness I will reiterate that I already said we don't know how or why Cornelia was able to launch what we can only assume is a coup at the end of ep 25.
Lelouch could have just as easily been ignoring Cornelia so that she would attempt a coup.
We don't know so it's another moot point that you brought up.

Loopholes aside, Schneizel has been forced into unending servitude to a single individual. That's as close to the definition of a slave as you can get. Doesn't matter if he's treated well, his situation remains the same.

No it isn't as close to the definition of slave as you can get.
If Lelouch wanted Schneizel to be Zero's slave he would have said "I command you to be Zero's slave" and he didn't (in the official Ban Dai release at least, fansubs may have something different).
He simply commands Schneizel to obey Zero, and that's quite different.
But again, my point was that Schneizel had killed many people, and thus deserved death.

Then you've missed my point. Things don't go to hell because she isn't there as a pilot, they go to hell because there's no one around who will keep him in line. He left for Japan to deal with the train network and to prepare for Kallen's eventual rescue. Assuming she wasn't captured, events would probably play out the same, up to Shirley's death. If someone other than C.C. had been there for him past that, he may very well have been prevented from flying off the handle like he did, and from then on things don't get nearly as bad.

Talk about assuming too much.
There is absolutely no way that statement can be justified.
Kallen was keeping him in line? Really?
I think you've just proven to me how outlandish the pairing of Kalulu actually is.
If that's the "logic" used to support Lelouch's supposed feelings for Kallen then I must say it is a very flawed line of reasoning at best.

Of course, such a situation does raise the legitimate issue of how he'd win against the Albion, but my point lies toward the emotional, not military.

You missed the point.
Lelouch's need to save Kallen was primarily due to her being his best KMF pilot.
Her being his friend probably played into his decision to help her on many occations, but then again, his strong feelings for ALL of his friends is also why he risked himself (and the Black Knights) to save Milley and the others in the Hotel when the JLF took them hostage in S1.

Lelouch has very strong feelings of friendship to many of the characters in Geass.
Whether Suzaku (who he risks his life to save from execution), Kallen (as we've discussed), Shirley (from Mao), even the Black Knights (by saving their hides in R2).
There's no doubt he risked all to save friends, that's part of why I view Lelouch as a hero.
But to mistake his strong feelings of friendship towards Kallen for romantic love to me is just wrong.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

That's a huge leap of speculation.

That is of course ridiculous, but then again, so is assuming Lelouch would have gone after Kallen simply because Rolo startles him.

Being able to read simple body language is not speculation, it's common sense. Startled people back up. Lelouch's motion can only indicate that he stopped himself mid-stride. You can even hear his footsteps. Really, it isn't that hard to see.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Even if that were not the case, Lelouch going after Kallen could simply be to apologize to his friend, which is all she is portrayed as being to him.
Reading farther into it by trying to imply he was going to chase her because he loved her is too far of a stretch to hold any merit.

Even if that's the case, and I must concede that it could be, it's not the sole bit of evidence being used here.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

This is why Lelouch x Kallen is ridiculed the way it is.
It's because the level of nit-picking to support it is so high.
Whereas with say Shirley, Lelouch balls his eyes out and commands her not to die.
He agrees to go on a date with her.
Kisses her in the rain to comfort her, and remarks in the Newtype dream story (to CC) that Shirley gives him "a funny feeling inside."
In that same dream he describes Kallen as "a crab-headed monster."
I grant you that Okouchi was teasing the Kallen fans a bit, and threw you all a bone at the end when Kallen kisses Lelouch, but that's all it ever was--a bone thrown to the Kalulu fans.

And what is Shirley but evidence of a relationship that was doomed to tragedy? Yes, his relationship with Shirley is a lot more obvious. That's the point. She's meant to be that type of character. His relationship with the other two is more subtle.

To go into specifics, of course he balls his eyes out at that moment and tries to save her. She was fucking dying right in front of him, and it was rather abrupt at that.

You'll have to clarify which date you mean. Assuming it was the one where they went to the mall, he did have an ulterior motive. The one in season 1 is a much better example, but as I recall C.C. did have to push him into it. I'll have watch that again.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Oh, then by that logic he must have had considerably strong feelings for Tohdoh when he risks the Black Knights to go and save him from the Britannians in S1.
After all, Tohdoh was just one soldier, and Lelouch does attack a major Britannian installation to free him.

You see, your point lacks merit when compared to Lelouch's other actions in the anime.
Lelouch is portrayed as willing to risk considerable resources to retain his best fighters.
Unless of course you're trying to convince me that Lelouch was in love with Tohdoh also.

Except he doesn't do that in the middle of a battle. He arranges a carefully planned breakout at the behest of the Swords, as well as Kyoto which he couldn't very well deny.

You draw flawed comparisons to make your point work. Kallen's situation is entirely distinct from Tohdoh's.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No, the only thing flawed is trying to use what is obstensibly a "in the next episode of Geass" as a basis for your argument.
Using the "pillars of his life" from the preview is nonsensical and only helps discredit the theory that Lelouch was in love with Kallen.

Again, I wasn't the one that brought that up. I should, however, point out that the "next episode" previews are done in-character.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Far-fetched?
No, it is as valid as any other possiblity.
But, that was not my point.
My point was that you're grasping at straws with the statement and only further undermining your position.
However, in all fairness I will reiterate that I already said we don't know how or why Cornelia was able to launch what we can only assume is a coup at the end of ep 25.
Lelouch could have just as easily been ignoring Cornelia so that she would attempt a coup.
We don't know so it's another moot point that you brought up.

All of that is grasping at straws. As you've said, we don't know. We don't know why she is there or how she escaped. Attributing it to Lelouch's plan is an assumption. Fact of the matter is, she was not in a position to be punished by him, as is clearly demonstrated. In order to prove that he just ignored her, you have to invent possible motives.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No it isn't as close to the definition of slave as you can get.
If Lelouch wanted Schneizel to be Zero's slave he would have said "I command you to be Zero's slave" and he didn't (in the official Ban Dai release at least, fansubs may have something different).
He simply commands Schneizel to obey Zero, and that's quite different.
But again, my point was that Schneizel had killed many people, and thus deserved death.

A lot of people deserved death and never got it. Schneizel was purely pragmatic. Suzaku needs an assistant in strategy and tactics.

Anyway, the difference you're discussing is elementary. "Be my slave" and "follow my orders" to Geass are for all intents and purposes the same thing. The only difference is fanaticism.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Talk about assuming too much.
There is absolutely no way that statement can be justified.
Kallen was keeping him in line? Really?
I think you've just proven to me how outlandish the pairing of Kalulu actually is.
If that's the "logic" used to support Lelouch's supposed feelings for Kallen then I must say it is a very flawed line of reasoning at best.

It is based on assumption, I'll grant that, but do you really think things would have gone the same way if she were around?

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

You missed the point.
Lelouch's need to save Kallen was primarily due to her being his best KMF pilot.
Her being his friend probably played into his decision to help her on many occations, but then again, his strong feelings for ALL of his friends is also why he risked himself (and the Black Knights) to save Milley and the others in the Hotel when the JLF took them hostage in S1.

Lelouch's need to save Kallen is fa more than to retrieve his pilot. Her machine is half the equation. Without that, even at her best Kallen is mismatched. Moreover, his need isn't just to save her as a pilot, or he'd place equal emphasis on recovery of the Guren, a tactical advantage. The Guren is secondary to her.

As for the hostage situation, aside from the obvious, he again accomplishes a secondary motive in freeing them: upstaging Britannia. The motive s secondary, but nevertheless it's there. When trying to rescue Kallen the first time, there is no such motive. He's putting his entire army in harm's way, risking his entire plan, to save one person. Totally distinct.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Lelouch has very strong feelings of friendship to many of the characters in Geass.
Whether Suzaku (who he risks his life to save from execution), Kallen (as we've discussed), Shirley (from Mao), even the Black Knights (by saving their hides in R2).
There's no doubt he risked all to save friends, that's part of why I view Lelouch as a hero.
But to mistake his strong feelings of friendship towards Kallen for romantic love to me is just wrong.

I won't argue on this last bit. Here we just have to disagree.

For the rest, there's additional circumstances. Why rescue Suzaku the first time? They weren't enemies. Lelouch spends most of the season trying to turn him. The Black Knights in R2? He needs an army, and since not all of the Black Knights were captured, it would sort of alienate them if he let the rest die.

Shirley's rescue from Mao is hardly that, considering Lelouch was trying to convince her not to kill him. But, he is trying to help her, so there's not much else to say on the matter. Kallen's rescue only has ulterior motives the second time around, when he gets her out of prison. Her rescue coincided with grabbing Nunnally.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Being able to read simple body language is not speculation, it's common sense. Startled people back up. Lelouch's motion can only indicate that he stopped himself mid-stride. You can even hear his footsteps. Really, it isn't that hard to see.

Even if that's the case, and I must concede that it could be, it's not the sole bit of evidence being used here.

Reading body language to determine he loves her?
No.
That's a huge stretch that cannot be supported.
By that logic when Lelouch tells CC he doesn't know why snow is white, only he knows he doesn't hate it, or when CC asks him to speak her name again like a lover, it's somekind of indication that Lelouch is in love with her.
You see, if the logic applied to support Kallen x Lelouch is used with CC x Lelouch, or Shirley x Lelouch the arguments for CC and Shirley are far stronger than those for Kallen.
This is what I'm talking about when I say the Kalulu's cherry-pick too much.
The level required to support the idea that Lelouch loved Kallen is too great to hold up under scrutiny.

And what is Shirley but evidence of a relationship that was doomed to tragedy? Yes, his relationship with Shirley is a lot more obvious. That's the point. She's meant to be that type of character. His relationship with the other two is more subtle.

To go into specifics, of course he balls his eyes out at that moment and tries to save her. She was fucking dying right in front of him, and it was rather abrupt at that.

Cusssing doesn't improve your argument, in fact it detracts from it.
The point I was making is that the evidence of his feelings for Shirley are the most pronounced in the series and thus the easiest to confirm.

Except he doesn't do that in the middle of a battle. He arranges a carefully planned breakout at the behest of the Swords, as well as Kyoto which he couldn't very well deny.

You draw flawed comparisons to make your point work. Kallen's situation is entirely distinct from Tohdoh's.

No, it's not flawed.
It's an objective analysis.
Lelouch takes his time rescuing Kallen whereas he had to rush to rescue Tohdoh (since he was going to be executed).
That doesn't change the motivations by any great measure.
In fact, Lelouch personally goes to rescue Tohdoh while he sends the Ninja-Maid and Rolo to fetch Kallen.

Again, I wasn't the one that brought that up. I should, however, point out that the "next episode" previews are done in-character.

Who cares if they're done in character.
They're not written to be 100% accurate and it's not a reliable source to use to back up an argument.

As you've said, we don't know. We don't know why she is there or how she escaped....A lot of people deserved death and never got it. Schneizel was purely pragmatic. Suzaku needs an assistant in strategy and tactics.

Agreed in part, but my point was that Lelouch didn't want to hurt any more of the people he cared about, and he clearly wanted Schneizel to live (probably Cornelia as well, but we don't know).
Thus at the end of the series he let Kallen go to live her own life and not die with him.
It's also why he cut Rivalz and Milley loose towards the end.
He didn't want anyone else getting hurt and that was obvious.

It is based on assumption, I'll grant that, but do you really think things would have gone the same way if she were around?

Only Okouchi can answer that question.
If he wanted it to work, then it would have since he's the writer not I.

Lelouch's need to save Kallen is fa more than to retrieve his pilot. Her machine is half the equation. Without that, even at her best Kallen is mismatched. Moreover, his need isn't just to save her as a pilot, or he'd place equal emphasis on recovery of the Guren, a tactical advantage. The Guren is secondary to her.

As for the hostage situation, aside from the obvious, he again accomplishes a secondary motive in freeing them: upstaging Britannia. The motive s secondary, but nevertheless it's there. When trying to rescue Kallen the first time, there is no such motive. He's putting his entire army in harm's way, risking his entire plan, to save one person. Totally distinct.

You just said he needed the Guren, which was one of the best mecha the Black Knights had, combined with their ace pilot.
Plus Kallen was a friend.
Those are reasons enough without the need to add the fanfiction of some romantic feelings by Lelouch.

For the rest, there's additional circumstances. Why rescue Suzaku the first time? They weren't enemies. Lelouch spends most of the season trying to turn him. The Black Knights in R2? He needs an army, and since not all of the Black Knights were captured, it would sort of alienate them if he let the rest die.

Shirley's rescue from Mao is hardly that, considering Lelouch was trying to convince her not to kill him. But, he is trying to help her, so there's not much else to say on the matter. Kallen's rescue only has ulterior motives the second time around, when he gets her out of prison. Her rescue coincided with grabbing Nunnally.

Which only adds to my point that Lelouch cared very deeply for his friends.
The anime clearly supports that Kallen was his friend, but not his love interest.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Reading body language to determine he loves her?
No.
That's a huge stretch that cannot be supported.
By that logic when Lelouch tells CC he doesn't know why snow is white, only he knows he doesn't hate it, or when CC asks him to speak her name again like a lover, it's somekind of indication that Lelouch is in love with her.
You see, if the logic applied to support Kallen x Lelouch is used with CC x Lelouch, or Shirley x Lelouch the arguments for CC and Shirley are far stronger than those for Kallen.
This is what I'm talking about when I say the Kalulu's cherry-pick too much.
The level required to support the idea that Lelouch loved Kallen is too great to hold up under scrutiny.

I'm not saying it's proof that he loves her, but it does show he cared and intended to chase her down. Friend or more, that much is true.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Cusssing doesn't improve your argument, in fact it detracts from it.
The point I was making is that the evidence of his feelings for Shirley are the most pronounced in the series and thus the easiest to confirm.

Which I won't deny, but it doesn't take away from the other possible pairings.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No, it's not flawed.
It's an objective analysis.
Lelouch takes his time rescuing Kallen whereas he had to rush to rescue Tohdoh (since he was going to be executed).
That doesn't change the motivations by any great measure.
In fact, Lelouch personally goes to rescue Tohdoh while he sends the Ninja-Maid and Rolo to fetch Kallen.

No, it really isn't. Your comparisons almost entirely ignore the context of the situation in order to make them fit, which is not objective in any sense.

Tohdoh's rescue wasn't even his idea. It was pushed on him by others and any expediency was due to their timing, not his. His participation in that raid was a necessity, considering he has a tiny little organization at that point. Not to mention that he needed to convince Tohdoh to come along.

His rescue of Kallen took longer because they were holding her in the center of government for the entire region, the most heavily-protected building around. On top of that, he had to balance his school identity and deal with all the other nonsense being the leader of an entire army tends to accumulate. He couldn't exactly personally participate in her rescue, either, since he had to command his army at the same time (he learned his lesson from last season, clearly).

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Who cares if they're done in character.
They're not written to be 100% accurate and it's not a reliable source to use to back up an argument.

They're not written like the previews in, say, Bleach, where characters break the fourth wall. They're written like thoughts. At best, they only serve to underline the points the episode already made.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Agreed in part, but my point was that Lelouch didn't want to hurt any more of the people he cared about, and he clearly wanted Schneizel to live (probably Cornelia as well, but we don't know).
Thus at the end of the series he let Kallen go to live her own life and not die with him.
It's also why he cut Rivalz and Milley loose towards the end.
He didn't want anyone else getting hurt and that was obvious.

Can't disagree here.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

You just said he needed the Guren, which was one of the best mecha the Black Knights had, combined with their ace pilot.
Plus Kallen was a friend.
Those are reasons enough without the need to add the fanfiction of some romantic feelings by Lelouch.

Reasons enough, yes, but obviously not the whole issue. His outburst when she is captured is not because he's losing a pilot, but because he's losing her. Same when he learns Suzaku took off with her. He doesn't treat her as a mere asset.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Which only adds to my point that Lelouch cared very deeply for his friends.
The anime clearly supports that Kallen was his friend, but not his love interest.

The simple argument here is that no one was under that definition. Even Shirley never got that far, if only due to one horrible incident after another.