2009-10-04, 02:10 | Link #84 |
The Death!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
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see this is why I cut the theory from my line of reasoning -_- it's useless to use the human anatomy. Unless it's referring to the portrait of Beatrice since it shows the human body, even then.....nothing.
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2009-10-04, 02:30 | Link #86 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Age: 32
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Quote:
My beloved hometown (My body) the sweetfish river running through it (The sweet blood running through it) follow its path downstream and seek the key. (For some reason, I linked this to a heart, as it was like the base of the 'river' or whatever) But it really didn't make much sense in the end.. Quote:
God, I really want to solve this thing! I keep trying, but now the only thing really stopping me is that I can't read the kanji itself! |
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2009-10-04, 02:46 | Link #87 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway, don't digress, Atlas! You must not doubt that! °_°
Maybe this will help. here is a list of "facts" about the river. Actually they aren't "facts" but hints, most of them are probably true, but some might be deceiving. Anyway the "river" should fit with the most of them to be valid: 1) it is something around the line of a family tree 2) there are things that can go up and down on it 3) you can find it in an atlas 4) it goes through a village, or many villages (whatever "village" means) 5) it has a connection with the sea (whatever "sea" means) 6) it is not a river
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2009-10-04, 04:16 | Link #89 |
Endless Nine
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 38
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If it plays around with a map, would the "journey" along the map, make up an initial Japanese character we can play around? Like writing an actual Japanese character in a a map?
Then Kinzo's love for western might indicate the word can be converted into romaji. |
2009-10-04, 06:05 | Link #90 | ||
Senior Member
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Quote:
Because Young Eva insisted so much on the riddle being childish and the need to throw away the admiration of Kinzo. There are many riddles and jokes among japanese children that rely on very dirty puns, so it may be that the riddle is so easy, so childish, that nobody would solve it like that considering it's rather dignified form. If you search around the epitaph, you find other body related things. 懐 in 懐かしき if read ふところ is also bosom or breast. So if you would follow that line of reasoning an これを下りて鍵を探せ (Step down from there and search the key) we would follow the 川 (river) which we associated as bloodstream. 川を下がれば、やがて里があり (If we follow that river down, before long there is a village/the home of one's parents), but 里 is also just simply the 'place of one's origin'...well we can all think what that would refer to. その里に二人が口にし岸を探れ (In this 'home' search/feel around for the shore that two are speaking of/taking into their mouth)...this is maybe the most abstract part of the poem, still we have the 二人, two unspecified people, and they 'speak of', 'take into their mouth's' or 'eat', but 口 could also be another hint as it is also a hole or an orifice. The problem is, if those Kanji could really lead us around in an Atlas. I really have to read that scene again to see if there are more hints hidden in certain words even not taken from the epitaph. Quote:
If anyone knows a good site that collects older maps, I think we would all be a bit happier. We all have to take into account too, that Ryukishi only said that the Epitaph is SOLVABLE...that could also mean we would have to have the same preposition and access to certain books as for example Eva.
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2009-10-04, 07:08 | Link #91 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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That's the reason why I think the book Eva is looking is not something too specific, but a generic common atlas. The book archive was also said to be a place where books that weren't of particular interest for Kinzo where stored. In othe words they are all pretty common books you can find anywhere.
@batpig: your reasoning is interesting, but don't make the mistake of feeling excited for finding some names that seem to redirect to the epitaph. This issomething I learned after many research looking at japanese atlas, I can find the kanji used in the firt portion of the epitaph everywhere. It looks like those are very commonly used in name of cities and places. There' like a thousand of places that have the kanji of "sato" and "kishi" in them XD There are also a lot of places that have numerals from one to ten. This is probably not casual, probably it is so because the epitaph actually refer to geographic places, however the fact that many places in the whole country have those kanji doesn't help. Anyway I'm interest in the street analogy. But first I need to know of city maps are commonly included in japanese atlas. or if the word used by eva for "atlas" could also mean a city map (though the book Eva is looking at in the anime doesn't look like one). There is also the problem of which "street" would she pick among all of them.
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2009-10-04, 08:00 | Link #92 |
...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: France
Age: 33
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I remember trying to solve the epitaph quite some time ago...
I was thinking that "the two" were Shannon and Kanon (as their names were given by Kinzo). I tried to find a solution based on the Shannon river in Ireland. If we follow it's path downstream, we can find a town also named Shannon, and near the shore there is an island called Kannon island (iirc). I remember trying to find a six-letters-long word using the other names of the island . Well, it's pretty sure this line of reasoning isn't correct, after all it seems the river isn't a real river. Something along the line of a family tree... The first things that comes to mind with the Ushiromiya family is the ranking system used for the family or the one used for the servants... |
2009-10-04, 08:10 | Link #93 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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My very first interpretation of the first part of the epitaph was as follow:
the homeland is planet earth the river is the whole water mass If you go down you find the Antarctica continent (village) Then I got pretty much stucked there until I found out that "Kuchinishi" can also mean "to be eaten by". There are two large gulfs in the antarctica that resemble two mouths. The "shore" they are "eating" is an "ice shelf". However I couldn't find any way to change it into 6 characters, "tanagoori" is the japanese word. And In the end I don't think this is the right solution anyway. Too bad because it does fit with Eva's reasoning for the most part, and it is a very simple childish solution ^^;
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2009-10-04, 09:29 | Link #94 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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@Jan-Poo
You're absolutely right, hence my disclaimer at the bottom XD. It's just been really helpful to read everyone's theories + thought process, so I wanted to share mine before I forget. Another huge flaw with my idea is that a number of other kanjis would work to get my result, but it seems vitally important that it is "sato". Spoiler for Eva's reasoning:
But as you say, as long as this can describe any street in any given city, then the whole theory falls apart. (Not having an insider's knowledge of Kinzo like Eva is a huge disadvantage ) I wonder what else you can see on a map that would immediately reminds you of "sato". Can anyone confirm from the Japanese version of the game whether Eva specifically says "atlas" or does she say "map". I wonder too if it could be a specialized map or something. (i.e. natural resource map? river = flow of the resources. Or a more rational example, railway map.) I also wonder about the last part of the epitaph that is really glossed over by the characters. Obviously, at that point they'd already have the gold and wouldn't care about everything else. But why does Kinzo even include it? Is it just to make it read like a ritual? For example, "One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead." could mean if you take the letters that have been "killed" and rearrange them, you'll get an additional message? |
2009-10-04, 11:24 | Link #96 |
Senior Member
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Well yeah I looked it up, it really was just a 地図帳, an Atlas or if you would translate it literally a Map-Book or Map-Register...so anything apart from an actual Atlas seems to be out of question too...
So it really has to be something on a map that is somehow connected to 鮎 and 川 in the vicinity of something related to 里 ... the problem now is, we don't know what kind of map she is looking at. It can't be a map of Rokkenjima, because Ryukishi said it was solvable and if it was a riddle made as a child or youth, then Kinzo wasn't even on Rokkenjima when he created the epitaph. So we're back at the start...or better running in circles...wondering what 故郷 it could be where there can be something on a map where 鮎 are found in a 川...maybe there is a town in the vicinity of his birthplace ending with 川 and having 鮎 in it... Right now I even thought about taking 鮎 apart and forming 魚 and 占. Sadly the only thing that found was, that the Ayu Kanji only exists in Japan as it seems.
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2009-10-04, 14:36 | Link #97 | ||
This is my ____ face
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Quote:
I looked at a general map of Japan via Google Maps, and the only things I could see going up and down are: Spoiler:
Spoiler for working off assumption:
Quote:
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Last edited by Li Jianliang; 2009-10-04 at 16:06. |
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2009-10-04, 14:59 | Link #98 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 40
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I also think the "sweetfish river" might refer to a road, as well. If it's something that goes up and down, can be seen on a map, and ISN'T a literal river, what else could it be? It needs to have some kind of resonance, literal or metaphorical, with a "family tree" as well. Possibly due to a name associated with it or something near it, or something to do with its historical significance?
One of the things that interests me about this part of the riddle is "shore", which, from Eva's dialogue was clearly an important of solving the meaning. The reason I find it so interesting is because "kishi" is a word Ryukishi has played around with before, in one of Frederica Bernkastel's poems ("There is only one thing that I seek./ What I would obtain will either be the kishi (shore), or shiki (my death)."). There are lots of other resonances with Umineko in the Bernkastel poems, so I can't help but wonder if there is some kind of clue here. The other interesting part of the riddle to me the "gouge and kill" sections. Unfortunately, I just don't know Japanese and so I can't grasp what's going on here as much as I wish but I what I assume is going on here is that the anatomical body parts refer to either kanji character or PARTS of the characters which can perhaps be removed, turning them into different characters all together. I don't know ... but I feel there has to be some kind of weird Japanese pun, joke, riddle, or child's game which connects these parts of the body with kanji formations. |
2009-10-04, 15:40 | Link #99 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Eh... so in the end you also reach to that conclusion. I didn't tell until now, because I didn't want to affect your own reasoning, but in the end I also couldn't find anything that can fit better the description other than a street or a railway.
The toukaidou line has been tried already, I've even found it in the tea party forum of ryukishi's website. If you try that way you end to a city named senrioka 千里丘 and the previous station is named kishibe 岸辺. However no one was able to get past this point, so maybe the toukaidou isn't the right one.
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2009-10-05, 00:45 | Link #100 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Hmmm. The line of reasoning being used right now would suggest people are to be looking for a place on a map.
This would seem incorrect. Using the wordplay to find a path of words on a map leading to something that is the "key" to the Golden Land. Also the key to "their youth". Whatever the word or item is, it would seem to point to a location of the island itself where the gold is hidden, even though the altas would not be pointing to the island at all. It also must be something that, in retrospect, is obvious, since Eva sort of clicked on it as soon as she saw the word/location on the altas. Thus it must be something relatively simply...once one knows where to look. It also must be somewhere on the island...since Eva can't leave the island. "The 'shore' the two will tell you of"? What does this get anyone? 千丘
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