[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 466 Discussion

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

Hitsugaya was COLD AS ICE in this chapter...

You did NOT just make that pun...

[Hunter6VI6]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

Hitsugaya was COLD AS ICE in this chapter...

Making the little kid scream and wet his pants!

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

You did NOT just make that pun...

Punosaur, away!

[Langus]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Yeah, but Gin intentionally presented himself as untrustworthy and suspicious. He told Aizen he was a snake with no feelings which was the vibe he gave, intentionally, to Rukia. Granted, Gin probably put forward his worst behavior (like murdering a 3rd seat in cold blood while he was just an academy student) to gain favor with Aizen. But it's not like the other shinigami misjudged him or anything, Gin lead them to believe he was scum. And despite that, Kira still worshiped the ground he walked on, so Rangiku wasn't the only person who had good opinions of him.

While I understand Gin's motives and think he was a cool character. I think his actions are far from justified. Guy was obsessed with revenge to the point where there ceases to be much of anything sympathetic about it. Rangiku was beaten, but it's not like she died or anything. She didn't even get any scars. For that, Gin abandons her and dedicates his life to revenge against Aizen, becoming a traitor and by aiding Aizen, indirectly exposing Matsumoto to far greater trauma than what he initially intended to get revenge for. She literally got her abdomen tore out fighting Aizen's forces, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gin, as long he was able to get revenge.

After Aizen's defeat, there's no place for Gin among the good guys or bad guys. I suppose if Kubo wanted to give him a happy ending, he could've had him say goodbye to Matsumoto, slip into an undetectable gigai and escape into the living world.

I see your point. What I was trying to illustrate was that Gin had no loyalty to Soul Society to begin with. It's impossible to really be a traitor when you never committed yourself to the cause. There always seemed to be a very clear Us and Them mentality when it came to Gin and SS, which I think stems largely from his first unfortunate encounter with the Soul Reapers. He may have worn a shinigami uniform, but it seems readily apparent that even his entrance into SS was purely so he could seek revenge against Aizen and his shinigami lackeys for what they did to Matsumoto. In fact, was not one of those lackeys the 3rd seat whom Gin later killed "in cold blood" as you put it?

Stating that his desire for revenge was overblown because she didn't die and didn't have any lasting scars ignores two things - the first being that she was his only companion. Someone attacking the only person you care about in the world, and the only person who cares about you, without any reasonable cause would be enough to make anyone desire retribution and at any cost. People have killed for far less.

Secondly, we don't know the true extent of the damage Rangiku took on. She doesn't have lasting scars that we know of, but that's just the physical. Go beyond the physical and you open a wide door of potential to emotional and psychological trauma. At that point in her life, Gin knew Rangiku better than anyone else. Were she perfectly fine after the attack it seems doubtful he would have committed himself so thoroughly to his mission. The fact that he did commit himself, beyond what appears to be all logic and reason, suggests that the injuries she sustained are far greater than we have been shown thus far.

Finally, Kira was a useless pawn and that's exactly how Gin treated him. Whatever feelings Kira may have felt towards Gin it was also made clear that they were not returned. And from what I recall, when Rangiku was injured Gin was still trapped within a giant wall of fire that not even Aizen had the power to immediately escape from. What was he supposed to do? Throwing himself into the flames would have accomplished nothing. Also, at that point, he wanted Rangiku to remain out of harm's way so he could kill Aizen without worrying about her getting in the way. He knew she would pursue him, just as she had done earlier that day, so having her unconscious but alive worked well with his plan.

[haegar]

Not to butt in here on you two and your splendid Gin banter which is rather enjoyable to read, but just my 5 cents on Kira's role in the whole matter: Granted, the poor soul never was the brightest apparently, but I find it doubtfull he was so insanely dumb not to notice Gin being the "scum" he pretended to be, - it's more likely Gin wasn't like that all the time:

Yeah sure like Sabaku Kyu said, he had to get into Aizen's good graces and in order to achieve that he had to show Aizen his evil side thoroughly - but he never would have made captain if he hadn't shown another side to the rest of SS. I doubt he was ever much loved for his kindness like say Ukitake - but you don't have to be Mr.Niceguy to be admired and accepted as a capable captain in SS. Let's take say the shiny prime example of well renown Byakuya Taichou - yeah he probably knows his etiquette on formal occasions and of course kinda has the family credit but prior to the whole Rukia/Ichigo story evolving he surely was one huge conceited asshole (and still mostly is ) and it stands to reason people know that about him to some extent - which does not change the fact he is admired as a great captain. Or take Mayuri - that's taking eccentric, sadistic and cruel to a whole new level He's probably more feared than admired but still undisputed in his role. So Gin might have been simmilarly aloft, and atopp of that also had a nasty cruel streak and rather mean sarcsam I guess - but that doesn't mean it's impossible for people like Rangiku to still love him and likewise, Kira still put him on a pedestal.

I mean, it's fairly specalutive since it was never shown in much detail but I'd say it's more likely that during his time as vice captain and early captain Gin might have been somewhat mean in his demenour but all in all a faithfull and trustworthy top-tier guy. Yeah so he makes nasty comments and sometimes he just gives you the f*ing creeps. But he'd probably have done his work quite excellent and that gets you support.

And that as well because the last thing Aizen needed was a noisy make-everybody-look-this-way-cause-I'm-such-a-nasty-pice-of-work sorta subordinate. Sure, Gin might have depicted himself a bit like the problem child or black sheep amongst the captains so that diligent Aizen shines all the brighter but at the same time he had to fulfill his duties as captain himself, too in order to keep his position, a position beneficial to Aizen for him to have. So during all that time he cannot have been THAT bad. And that goes for quite a long period of time, from before he became captain all the way till Ichigo showed up in SS.

So it's not quite so farfetched at all that there was a time where it was much more easily concievable that Kira admires him so much. Well and once you're stuck there...He has some difficulty adjusting from his admiration for his "old" captain to the Gin in light of new realities. He's still kinda naive about it but I feel he's a little less dense if you look at it like this

Ah whatever, now I got into Gin after all. Well it's kinda sad he's gone, he was a great character. Though I guess it is true his motivation for sticking with Aizen the way he did could have been developed a bit more fully. Anyways, what was I saying: Oh yeah, Kira being a little less dumb than it sounded there

[Makender]

Not sure if this has already been addressed, but anyone else think that minecraft kid's death is Kubo's ploy for there to be non-confrontations for Ginjo, Tsukishima, love gun girl, and the other little jammy bastard. I mean with his death I suspect those "death match zones" he constructed may dissipate, allowing Ginjo and peeps to hightail it and Kubo to further extend this arc beyond "Lolol so much for FB."

[Langus]

Originally Posted by haegar

Not to butt in here on you two and your splendid Gin banter which is rather enjoyable to read, but just my 5 cents on Kira's role in the whole matter: Granted, the poor soul never was the brightest apparently, but I find it doubtfull he was so insanely dumb not to notice Gin being the "scum" he pretended to be, - it's more likely Gin wasn't like that all the time:

[cut to prevent a continuation of my wall-of-text responses]

You bring up some really good points, especially using the example of Mayuri who was psychotic enough that Central 46 locked him in the deepest dungeons of SS before he became a Captain. Obviously their standards aren't the highest.

When it comes to Gin and Aizen, I have wondered for quite some time Aizen didn't just hypnotize himself and Gin into power positions. It was mentioned in the manga that he had used his zanpakto on everyone in SS so it's not unreasonable to believe he might have done it with that purpose in mind.

In that same vein, it also wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine Aizen using that same power to ensure everyone thought of Gin as a pariah. Aizen mentioned during Gin's attack that he knew he was out to kill him from the start. Had Gin ever had any inclination to bring SS's attention to what Aizen truly was (and what his motives were), the best way Aizen could've protected himself from the fallout would be to hypnotize everyone into thinking Gin was untrustworthy and a suspicious character. In a Gin's word vs. Aizen's scenario, it seems likely that SS would be quick to ignore Gin and slow to judge Aizen. At that point, Aizen alreay had control over Central 46. Remember what happened to Urahara when he tried to bring charges against him? Aizen got to them first and he was the one convicted and banished to the real world.

Aizen had SS so thoroughly manipulated it took revealing himself and being like "Hey bitches, I messed with y'all for centuries!" before anyone believed it to be true. If any of the above is true, it could go a long way to explaining why those characters who were closest to Gin (Rangiku and Kira) saw him in a completely different light than everyone else.



Sorry for the ramble. (Again)

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Langus

Secondly, we don't know the true extent of the damage Rangiku took on. She doesn't have lasting scars that we know of, but that's just the physical. Go beyond the physical and you open a wide door of potential to emotional and psychological trauma. At that point in her life, Gin knew Rangiku better than anyone else. Were she perfectly fine after the attack it seems doubtful he would have committed himself so thoroughly to his mission. The fact that he did commit himself, beyond what appears to be all logic and reason, suggests that the injuries she sustained are far greater than we have been shown thus far.

Ah, I think you're right about the 3rd seat being one of Aizen's lackeys. Makes sense.

And I agree, it could be true that Rangiku went through a lot more trauma than we know of. I'm just going off what the story has presented, and nothing really suggests that. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, but it's just that if that's the case, Kubo just didn't really establish it well at all (I know, big surprise right?). If we saw Rangiku reference that memory once: having a nightmare, a flashback or just mentioning "that time", it'd make Gin's motives a lot more justified. Instead, the only thing that really seems to bother Rangiku is Gin's behavior, which ironically, is for her sake apparently.

We have to make the leap of faith that Rangiku was hurt so deeply that Gin knew he had to go after Aizen, no matter what the cost. Even then, his actions come off looking a little less than rational. The issue of which is the greater motive: desire for revenge vs. caring about Rangiku, is for me, what ultimately makes Gin a unsympathetic or sympathetic character. And the line is extremely blurry.

Originally Posted by Langus

Had Gin ever had any inclination to bring SS's attention to what Aizen truly was (and what his motives were), the best way Aizen could've protected himself from the fallout would be to hypnotize everyone into thinking Gin was untrustworthy and a suspicious character. Remember what happened to Urahara when he tried to bring charges against him? Aizen got to them first and he was the one convicted and banished to the real world.

Aizen didn't have any control over Center 46. He used his illusions to create doubles so that several shinigami could claim they saw him in a different place at the time of the crime. He had a watertight alibi whereas Urahara didn't. Aizen couldn't hypnotize anyone into thinking Gin's untrustworthy anymore than he could hypnotize Shinji into thinking he was an innocent good-doer. He can only create illusions.

Originally Posted by haegar

So it's not quite so farfetched at all that there was a time where it was much more easily concievable that Kira admires him so much. Well and once you're stuck there...He has some difficulty adjusting from his admiration for his "old" captain to the Gin in light of new realities. He's still kinda naive about it but I feel he's a little less dense if you look at it like this

It's kinda hard to tell. VC's tend to admire and be extremely devoted to their captains even if they're complete douchebags. Renji, who actually fought his own captain, continued to show Byakuya the utmost respect and admiration after their duel. Even Omaeda, who's regularly abused and humilated by Soi Fon, put his life on the line for her without a second thought. The only exceptions we've seen are Aizen towards Shinji and Hiyori towards Urahara (though Hiyori thought of her original captain as a mother)

Anyways, I've gone pretty far with the Gin talk. So I'll take a break...

[Amirali]

Ah, meaningful character debate! How I have missed thee, and how I blame Kubo for starving us of such nourishment.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Aizen couldn't hypnotize anyone into thinking Gin's untrustworthy anymore than he could hypnotize Shinji into thinking he was an innocent good-doer. He can only create illusions.

Yes and no. Aizen can't hypnotize anyone into changing their opinion of Gin directly. He can hypnotize people into thinking they heard or saw Gin do dickish, despicable things and deal vile insults.

Originally Posted by Langus

I see your point. What I was trying to illustrate was that Gin had no loyalty to Soul Society to begin with. It's impossible to really be a traitor when you never committed yourself to the cause. There always seemed to be a very clear Us and Them mentality when it came to Gin and SS, which I think stems largely from his first unfortunate encounter with the Soul Reapers. He may have worn a shinigami uniform, but it seems readily apparent that even his entrance into SS was purely so he could seek revenge against Aizen

The sad bit is, it is precisely that Gin cared more for Matsumoto than SS that drove a wedge between them. Whatever ravages Matsu suffered, she never blamed shinigami as a whole for the actions of a few; rather she was deeply loyal to Hitsu and the 10th squad. That must have rankled Gin, that Matsumoto would align herself with shinigami, while he was outside her trust despite all he was sacrificing to deceive Aizen. It makes one wonder, did Gin abandon Matsumoto, as was suggested in her first flashbacks of him? Or was it she that abandoned him unknowingly by growing close to shinigami, the species he hated?

Still while his initial desire may have been for revenge on Matsumoto's behalf, it's fair of Sabaku Kyu to say he essentially abandoned her to achieve it. He withdrew emotionally, he aligned against Matsumoto's friends and allies - in fact, the way Gin trolled and taunted Hitsugaya throughout the SS arc might be because he was jealous of his bond to Matsumoto. Otherwise really, why was Hitsu worthy of so much of Gin's attention?

Originally Posted by Langus

Secondly, we don't know the true extent of the damage Rangiku took on. She doesn't have lasting scars that we know of, but that's just the physical. Go beyond the physical and you open a wide door of potential to emotional and psychological trauma. At that point in her life, Gin knew Rangiku better than anyone else. Were she perfectly fine after the attack it seems doubtful he would have committed himself so thoroughly to his mission. The fact that he did commit himself, beyond what appears to be all logic and reason, suggests that the injuries she sustained are far greater than we have been shown thus far.

And yet how much did he protect her after her injuries? Help her? Comfort her and look after her? While it isn't directly shown in the manga, I assume from Gin's demeanor that he could not open himself up to her. Maybe that unwillingness is why he took the path of vengeance and bitterness that he did. In great part a desire to avenge Matsumoto, but because he couldn't allow himself to be vulnerable or human, to ever be a helpless victim the way she was at Aizen's hands. He would rather be the cold snake that devours it's prey, and that was the only way he knew to express his affection for her and be strong for her. Something in Gin broke a long time ago, somewhere, somehow, when it comes to emotional health.

Originally Posted by Langus

And from what I recall, when Rangiku was injured Gin was still trapped within a giant wall of fire that not even Aizen had the power to immediately escape from. What was he supposed to do? Throwing himself into the flames would have accomplished nothing. Also, at that point, he wanted Rangiku to remain out of harm's way so he could kill Aizen without worrying about her getting in the way. He knew she would pursue him, just as she had done earlier that day, so having her unconscious but alive worked well with his plan.

Sabaku's point isn't that at that specific instant, Gin should have stopped Rangiku being gored from behind the wall of fire. Rather, Gin's actions in the decades leading prior, facilitated the growth of the Aizen threat that nearly killed her. Think about it. For all his good intentions, he succored, aided and protected Aizen, a man who was always gung-ho about eradicating shinigami that opposed him, including Captains, VCs and Matsumoto. What did Gin expect would happen when he let Aizen get the Hougoyoko? When he helped him conquer Hueco Mundo? When he hid Aizen's plans from SS? Couldn't he have foreseen that Aizen could hurt any shinigami alive?

It wasn't merely that Gin was biding his time, reluctantly hindering SS while he found a chance to stop Aizen as Gin apologists might say. Rather, in his final, he says how he was anxious of SS killing Aizen, because he wanted to be the only one who could kill him. And in this pride and self-obsession, Gin is at least somewhat culpable for allowing Aizen's evil and the harm done to MAtsumoto at his minions' hands/

Leaving aside GIn aiding Aizen against SS. If Gin learned Aizen's secrets after a few decades, why couldn't he have struck him down years sooner, when he was still a mortal shinigami? Why did he let it get as far as it did? Perhaps, Gin grew to enjoy shinigami squirming in Aizen's machinations. Perhaps he wanted to strike Aizen down when he thought himself victorious, to crush his ambition and dreams right at it's sweetest moment of ascension to Godhood. Perhaps he wanted Aizen to cut down each captain first, so that when Gin finally executed Aizen where they had failed, he would prove to everyone - Matsumoto, himself- that he was better than SS. And in so doing, waiting for too long for the sake of his pride, Gin blew his chance .


That incident for me is a metaphor for Gin himself. He rejected love, trust and companionship in his obsession with Aizen till too late for redemption - not just the shinigami, but his closest person Matsumoto. He loved her deeply, but he couldn't trust her or make himself vulnerable to her. Love isn't always about revenge or ego, but of honoring their values and caring for them. There are parallels to Tousen for me, and how he became what his shinigami friend most hated in order to avenge her. In a similar way, Gin took up the mask to defeat Aizen, and he denied his own humanity as a weakness and an obstacle in his path.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Amirali

Ah, meaningful character debate! How I have missed thee, and how I blame Kubo for starving us of such nourishment.
.

If we're going to have serious discussions like these-- Then I am all for Kubo starving us (Although I don't agree that he starved us..)

I have been hoping they would get serious for weeks

Originally Posted by Casshern

." He wasn't a hero, he wasn't even an anti-hero, and to me he wasn't a villain either. He was just Gin.

EXACTLY! This is how I see him...he's none of those and thanks to you I couldn't help but stare at Hitsu's hair while reading this chapter!

PLEASE DON'T SAY THINGS THAT WILL MAKE ME LOOK AT HITSU

Despite me actually thinking he looked cool. I hate him, yeah I do but I have to give credit where credit is due. Not to mention he looks like hot with his new haircut and I am shallow enough to fangirl him, because of his face

Originally Posted by sayde

I liked Gin, but I wouldn't consider him to be a protagonist worthy of salvation for lack of a better term.

While it's true that he had secretly opposed the main antagonist the entire time, that alone didn't necessarily make him one of the good guys IMHO. The methods he used and the things he was willing to do all for the sake of revenge were always going to prevent him from being completely excused or absolved for his actions.Hell, even after learning of the only way to counter Aizen's trademark technique, what did he choose to do? He kept the secret to himself and sought suspense in watching the captains struggle to take him on without that info.

woah woah woah woah...let's not get ahead of ourselves--Gin's not a Good-Guy or Hero

I never said he was one of the "Good Guys"...his character is a perfect example of of the "Gray" characters I was talking about

I said he halved a midget who was on the same side as he was. the "I wanna f--kin kill Aizen" side...

In retrospect of all his actions--Gin's character was more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist

Cutting Hiyori in half is the only thing that you can't really excuse. Now one could say he did that to keep Aizen killing her. Since he knew that all of Unohana's forces and all of her men, could put little Hyori back together again (or if that fails then they could get Orihime to reject her death) ...but I doubt it. I believe "I am the only one who can defeat Aizen" was his motive. that and he's the former Captain of the Emo Divison-
So I do believe that he gets his rocks by hurting others.

But in Rukia's case...in SS he gave her the resolve to live, when she had given up. In HM he led her to Kaien's facsimile Arron,. Because of that fight she gained closure and was able to forgive herself. Which means Gin actually did her a favor. Does that means he's a good guy..No. But it shows that he's not all bad either

Spoiler for the rest of my reply to sayde:

Originally Posted by sayde

Then there's the act of murder of an unknown number of shinigami he's responsible for (when he was younger) as a result of his fake partnership on top of numerous other crimes he's likely committed for the sake of staying by Aizen's side. He also never showed any signs of remorse for the things he did while trying to achieve his goal.

I think that was one of the guys that hurt Matsu. I believe that it wasn't a senseless slaughter, because he felt like it. Nor do I think that he did it to get in good with Aizen. I believe that he decided to use that opportunity killing that 3rd seat provided --to become one of Aizen's goons.

Originally Posted by sayde

So yeah...as cool as Gin was, Kubo wasn't about to let him off the hook apparently. At best, he was more like the lesser of two evils. What's really too bad is that it seems Kubo didn't feel he could do anything more with Gin in the future. Because if he had any chance of surviving the war, it all rested on that possibility.

It is because Gin is neither evil nor good, that I think Kubo killed him. He can't rejoin the good guys and it doesn't make sense for him to join the bad guys, since he was only a member of "Team Evil" for revenge on the team leader

So he has no place in the manga anymore and that's why Kubo killed him

Originally Posted by Haak

Stark is really just an anomaly. If you look at all the antagonists most of the sympathetic ones were never actually killed directly by a good guy:

You might have a point there---

Originally Posted by Haak

Now look at everyone Ichigo has fought. Despite some nameless hollow in the first arc, who has he actually directly killed? No one..

...um what?!

You're serious aren't you? Or do you just want to confuse the hell out of me, just because?
because you just said...

Originally Posted by Haak

Ulquiorra - Killed by Hollow Ichigo..

then you turn around and say this...

What gives? Ichigo still killed someone, mindless or not, he still killed a guy and brutally too (I LOVED THE BRUTALITY because I am blood thirsty & PAYBACK IS A BITCH!!! )
So the main protagonist has killed a bad guy who was sympathetic

Spoiler for the rest of my reply to Haak:

Originally Posted by Haak

Tousen - I don't even know what the hell happened to him.
.

He was killed by Hisagi. It was a stab to the head, and only Noitorra can survive a stab to the head
He just didn't die right away, and he had time to talk before he went ...BOOM-SPLAT!

Originally Posted by Haak

Grimmjow - Survived.

That's actually up for debate. There is nothing that says he's alive and Kubo made it seem as if he died, but it wasn't shown because he had a large fanbase. Kubo wanted to kill him earlier, but his fans made it so he had to wait. This way you could always dream that he lived...but there is more that says he died. He's pictured with all the confirmed dead espada scan for hellverse

Not to mention there isn't anything irredeemable about Grimmy...he lost any chance of redemption when he launched those rockets at Orihime and Nel...After Orihime restored his arm--the ungrateful bastard!

Although truth be told---- I am actually angrier at him for failing to hit Orihime

Originally Posted by Haak

Dondorri - Killed himself fighting other hollows..

He wasn't redeemable either--he tried to take out a kid

Originally Posted by Haak

Afro reject espada that fought Chad - survived
All the other dead espada and fraccion - Weren't sympathetic..

I forgot about this fight totally. I have trouble remembering anything that involves Chad

Originally Posted by Haak

As for good guys being bad...well I've made my beef about that as well. Kubo randomly throws in morally ambiguous freaks like Mayuri and Kenpachi

Can I asked you why you're lumping Zaraki in with Mayuri?

Mayuri is a morally ambiguous freak--Zaraki isn't. He's actually a pretty cool dude that loves to fight

I kinda of doubt that SS knows about the atrocities Mayuri committed after he joined the Gotei 13...Before that he was in prison so it's not like their blind to his character. I just don't believe they know what he's done since then

I believe that Kubo uses Mayuri and the others, to show that sometimes they're not so different
Aizen is a character that will definitely make you question "What is evil"? He's so good at it, that I had to agree even when I know that he's as wrong as two left shoes...

Originally Posted by Haak

and has Soul Society do some damn dickish things for pretty much no reason. All the black that Kubo tries to shove on Soul Society really just feels forced, as if he trying to make them look grey but fails miserably.

Actually Kubo tends to justify most of their actions. I don't think he wants them to be "black" at all. Because Ichigo identifies with them the most. Being a Shinigami is what he truly desires. He wants the power to protect but he doesn't want any old powers. He wasn't satisfied with Fullbring ever. He wanted his Shinigami powers. Because Ichigo is linked with SS, the Shinigami

Originally Posted by Haak

And all the antagonists that Kubo makes sympathetic still don't really justify the position they actually take. in the end even if it's not completely Black and White. You can still distinguish the lighter grey from the darker grey very very easily.

I agree. It doesn't justify anything. It's merely insight into their character.

You not only learn what makes them tick---You also connect with them on an emotional level. If you feel anything....even pity. Then that means Kubo has done his job. I may feel bad for them, but they had a choice and chose the wrong path. Karma is a bitch --so I may feel bad they died but I accept it because ...well Karma is a bitch

So does anyone else believe that this chapter is Kubo's way of foreshadowing Aizen's return and developing his character? Because he said "God is always alone" and this is actually part of an explanation of the loneliness Ichigo felt in his blade? Or is just wishful thinking on my part?

[rei_ayanami17]

Originally Posted by Casshern

I too have a small hope that he was secretly taken into the royal guard, or that maybe he just survived on his own, disappeared and continued living as a rogue. If he survived, I'm sure he'll have an epic return. Gin is a killer who thinks 100 years ahead of everyone else.

As for his morals, I'm sure everyone knows that he was a sadistic S.O.B. He said it himself; he did everything for Matsumoto, not for the sake of some vague justice like punishing evil. Other than that, he was a snake, searching for prey with his tongue and devouring anything that looked tasty. He never said "to protect my friends/family/town etc." He wasn't a hero, he wasn't even an anti-hero, and to me he wasn't a villain either. He was just Gin.

^^ Ehehe,….i’m not saying his a good hero but a bad-hero maybe, like Lelouch Lamperouge since I believe too that his screwed way of dealing up with things are not really justifiable.

And yeah, his statement when Rangiku ask him where did he get those shinigami kimono is enough to say that he wants to be a hero on his own way even just in Rangiku’s eyes – the “I will change everything for Rangiku not to cry” or something close to that….

Originally Posted by sayde

That's definitely a different way of looking at it. Fair enough. I'm not sure why, but I just can't bring myself to debate it.

I know why; because of this different perspective …try it ^^

Spoiler for my perspective:

first of all, I’m not saying that Gin is a good guy because I believe too that his screwed way of dealing up with things are not really justifiable but I don’t believe that he is a snake with no feelings and devoured anything that look tasty. He’s not! – sure, he declared that he was but I know that he’s just lying in front of Aizen when he said that. His revelation when he admits that he was really terrified as he watch in horror to see the shinigamis sparing their lives to fight Aizen and his goal for Rangiku not to cry only imply that he have a feeling of concern for both Shinigamis and for Rangiku in the end.

While with Rukia, he became mean to her because he mirrors himself to her. He sees himself right through Rukia and it disgusts him because Rukia depicts his fear. Before the execution, he went through Rukia to mindf*ck her about her fear on her own death. And Kenpachi point out before that Gin is afraid of his own death too. The Kaien/Arroniero incident is the same. He manipulates the corridors for Rukia to face her worst nightmare because she fears Kaien’s death the most. While with Gin, his worst nightmare is what he saw during the “a glimpse of truth” chapter that leads to his obsession to take revenge to Aizen. True that he eagerly want to revenge to Aizen yet he fear Aizen the most. After knowing Aizen’s Kyoka Suigetsu’s weakness, he can’t find a right time to strike because he is aware that he’s not that strong enough to take down Aizen. Thus, Aizen say that Gin’s fear is inevitable for the complete evolution of the Hogyouku when he became Hogyouku himself because when Gin grab the Hogyouku, he is then exposed to the power of that orb and read his insight.

And yeah, Ichigo also point out that feeling in Deicide chapters.

Lastly, I don’t believe that his real motive is to take revenge to Aizen. That’s definitely wrong in my perspective! Sure, maybe a part of it but……. Why would he have to grab the Hougyouku away from Aizen? Why not torture him to death if he hates Aizen that much? After grabbing the Hougyouku, he already state that his zanpaktou bankai ability will definitely kill Aizen, then why did he have to hide in a tall building? Did he know that that is not enough to kill Aizen? ---That is, of course! For sure! Because he knows (he only!) how powerful Aizen is above everyone else. He just comes into his senses that he must face his fear after seeing shinigami’s sacrificing their lives. Gin probably even asking himself “how can they do this? Didn’t they know the meaning of the word ‘fear’? ” (hehe…that’s just my imagination ^^) ….if you remember, during that time when he was standing, watching the shinigami’s fighting Aizen, ….he gives us, readers, his insight/his POV about how he thinks how powerful Aizen is.

So no doubt, the Hogyouku is his real motive. That is his one and only desire..”to take back what was taken from Rangiku”. That inside Hougoyuku, there lies what was taken from Rangiku. …..You’d probably asking this right now – “if that so, why would it take that so long? Why not stealing it to Aizen when they’re in HM? ” --- It’s because of one thing I always pointed out in this perspective……it about “FEAR”

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

So he has no place in the manga anymore and that's why Kubo killed him

You want me to kill ya’ for saying this? Bastard!

[Haak]

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

If You might have a point there---
...um what?!
You're serious aren't you? Or do you just want to confuse the hell out of me, just because?
because you just said...
then you turn around and say this...
What gives? Ichigo still killed someone, mindless or not, he still killed a guy and brutally too (I LOVED THE BRUTALITY because I am blood thirsty & PAYBACK IS A BITCH!!! )
So the main protagonist has killed a bad guy who was sympathetic

Hollow Ichigo =/= Ichigo. They're two blatantly different people by the sheer fact they both have seperate self-conciousness.

He was killed by Hisagi. It was a stab to the head, and only Noitorra can survive a stab to the head
He just didn't die right away, and he had time to talk before he went ...BOOM-SPLAT!

That doesn't even make sense. How can you have a delayed reaction to a stab to the head? Why would you boom splat from a stab to the head, anyway? It's just weird. At firs i thought it was aizen that killed him considering komamaru's reaction but it looks absurdly ambiguous. We can't really tell.

That's actually up for debate. There is nothing that says he's alive and Kubo made it seem as if he died, but it wasn't shown because he had a large fanbase. Kubo wanted to kill him earlier, but his fans made it so he had to wait. This way you could always dream that he lived...but there is more that says he died. He's pictured with all the confirmed dead espada scan for hellverse

Not to mention there isn't anything irredeemable about Grimmy...he lost any chance of redemption when he launched those rockets at Orihime and Nel...After Orihime restored his arm--the ungrateful bastard!

Although truth be told---- I am actually angrier at him for failing to hit Orihime

It doesn't really matter. Nnoitra did Ichigo's dirty work for him anyway.

He wasn't redeemable either--he tried to take out a kid
I forgot about this fight totally. I have trouble remembering anything that involves Chad

Imo, he somewhat redeemed himself by stalling the other arrancar for ichigo's sake. Plus he was a bit of a comic relief which makes him somewhat sympathetic too

Can I asked you why you're lumping Zaraki in with Mayuri?

Mayuri is a morally ambiguous freak--Zaraki isn't. He's actually a pretty cool dude that loves to fight

Zaraki is psychopathic maniac that killed the previous Kenpachi in cold blood and the only reason he doesn't kill is due to a scarily flimsy amoral reason.

I kinda of doubt that SS knows about the atrocities Mayuri committed after he joined the Gotei 13...Before that he was in prison so it's not like their blind to his character. I just don't believe they know what he's done since then

I wonder how he managed to explain all those underlings he killed and why Ishida didn't care to bring it up. It's a bit strange how it's never followed up. And the next time he comes up his horrible crap is played for laughs like it's no big deal all of a sudden. It's very weird.

I believe that Kubo uses Mayuri and the others, to show that sometimes they're not so different

I know why he does it. I'm saying he sucks at it.

Aizen is a character that will definitely make you question "What is evil"? He's so good at it, that I had to agree even when I know that he's as wrong as two left shoes...

Aizen's pseudo-philosophical ramblings make my ears bleed. On the off chance he's actually saying something that makes sense it's usually something that's patently obvious.

Actually Kubo tends to justify most of their actions. I don't think he wants them to be "black" at all. Because Ichigo identifies with them the most. Being a Shinigami is what he truly desires. He wants the power to protect but he doesn't want any old powers. He wasn't satisfied with Fullbring ever. He wanted his Shinigami powers. Because Ichigo is linked with SS, the Shinigami

Kubo doesn't justify any of the crap Mayuri does nor the fact that Soul Society allowed Zaraki to kill the previous Kenpachi for no reason nor the fact that Tousen's girlfriend was killed by a shinigami for no reason (That was never followed up on either considering it was the biggest reason Tousen defected. You'd think Komamura would decide to follow up on the blatant injustices that lead to Tousen's defection rather than blame it all on Aizen but no.)

I agree. It doesn't justify anything. It's merely insight into their character.

You not only learn what makes them tick---You also connect with them on an emotional level. If you feel anything....even pity. Then that means Kubo has done his job. I may feel bad for them, but they had a choice and chose the wrong path. Karma is a bitch --so I may feel bad they died but I accept it because ...well Karma is a bitch

I don't have any problem with Kubo's characterising the arrancars. My problem is really his bizarre attempts at making Soul Society look grey and then not having the balls to actually make them look grey by making them kill grey characters and not have their decisions seriously questioned.

So does anyone else believe that this chapter is Kubo's way of foreshadowing Aizen's return and developing his character? Because he said "God is always alone" and this is actually part of an explanation of the loneliness Ichigo felt in his blade? Or is just wishful thinking on my part?

I don't think it hints Aizen's return but I'm willing to believe there was a double meaning there and in reference to Aizen. But that's about it.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

I know why; because of this different perspective …try it ^^

I debate points w/ people who have different perspectives all the time. So that's probably not it. In hindsight, it's more likely that I just didn't feel up to going back and fourth on the matter at the time. That seems to be happening to me more and more lately. In fact, I feel that way right now.

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

Spoiler for my perspective:

first of all, I’m not saying that Gin is a good guy because I believe too that his screwed way of dealing up with things are not really justifiable but I don’t believe that he is a snake with no feelings and devoured anything that look tasty. He’s not! – sure, he declared that he was but I know that he’s just lying in front of Aizen when he said that. His revelation when he admits that he was really terrified as he watch in horror to see the shinigamis sparing their lives to fight Aizen and his goal for Rangiku not to cry only imply that he have a feeling of concern for both Shinigamis and for Rangiku in the end.

While with Rukia, he became mean to her because he mirrors himself to her. He sees himself right through Rukia and it disgusts him because Rukia depicts his fear. Before the execution, he went through Rukia to mindf*ck her about her fear on her own death. And Kenpachi point out before that Gin is afraid of his own death too. The Kaien/Arroniero incident is the same. He manipulates the corridors for Rukia to face her worst nightmare because she fears Kaien’s death the most. While with Gin, his worst nightmare is what he saw during the “a glimpse of truth” chapter that leads to his obsession to take revenge to Aizen. True that he eagerly want to revenge to Aizen yet he fear Aizen the most. After knowing Aizen’s Kyoka Suigetsu’s weakness, he can’t find a right time to strike because he is aware that he’s not that strong enough to take down Aizen. Thus, Aizen say that Gin’s fear is inevitable for the complete evolution of the Hogyouku when he became Hogyouku himself because when Gin grab the Hogyouku, he is then exposed to the power of that orb and read his insight.

And yeah, Ichigo also point out that feeling in Deicide chapters.

Lastly, I don’t believe that his real motive is to take revenge to Aizen. That’s definitely wrong in my perspective! Sure, maybe a part of it but……. Why would he have to grab the Hougyouku away from Aizen? Why not torture him to death if he hates Aizen that much? After grabbing the Hougyouku, he already state that his zanpaktou bankai ability will definitely kill Aizen, then why did he have to hide in a tall building? Did he know that that is not enough to kill Aizen? ---That is, of course! For sure! Because he knows (he only!) how powerful Aizen is above everyone else. He just comes into his senses that he must face his fear after seeing shinigami’s sacrificing their lives. Gin probably even asking himself “how can they do this? Didn’t they know the meaning of the word ‘fear’? ” (hehe…that’s just my imagination ^^) ….if you remember, during that time when he was standing, watching the shinigami’s fighting Aizen, ….he gives us, readers, his insight/his POV about how he thinks how powerful Aizen is.

So no doubt, the Hogyouku is his real motive. That is his one and only desire..”to take back what was taken from Rangiku”. That inside Hougoyuku, there lies what was taken from Rangiku. …..You’d probably asking this right now – “if that so, why would it take that so long? Why not stealing it to Aizen when they’re in HM? ” --- It’s because of one thing I always pointed out in this perspective……it about “FEAR”

Keeping in mind what I stated above, I'm feeling way too lazy to pick this apart and respond to each and every point I disagreed with. So rest assured, your PoV wasn't ignored. For my own sake though, lets simply agree to disagree.

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I believe "I am the only one who can defeat Aizen" was his motive.

Almost, but more like, "I want to be the only one that defeats Aizen, and I'd rather see every stupid shinigami get cut down by him till I get the chance."

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Casshern

On topic, it's about friggin time, Renji! Aside from that, looks like tsuki, ginjo and punk kid wont have to die so quick now that yukio is dead. Starting to think delinquent dude has some special significance to the plot.

Imagine that. The tsundere, the comic relief, and the two most likely to have significance outside of this one arc may not be relegated to guaranteed death in the next few chapters... Never saw that coming...

I still think Ginjou's on borrowed time, if only to show just how powerful Ichigo is now. But however other side of the pillow-like Byakuya may be, Tsukushima is clearly destined for greater things.

Originally Posted by Langus

Finally, Kira was a useless pawn and that's exactly how Gin treated him. Whatever feelings Kira may have felt towards Gin it was also made clear that they were not returned.

I'm not sure Kira's feelings for Gin were entirely pure. No, not in that way (although now that I think about it, Kira has always seemed a little off in that respect). Think about it. We know from others' reactions to him (not to mention his own actions) that Gin was a cold-blooded snake of a stone killer. It's been shown numerous times that a shinigami's zanpakuto is representative of their inner selves. Well, the whole point of Kira's shikai is to make his opponent bow down under the weight of their own weapon so he can calmly take their head. That ain't healthy.

[Langus]

@ Sabaku Kyu - You make a lot of good points but also made a graceful exit so imma leave it at that Thanks for giving me some things to think about with regards to my Gin theories.

@ Amirali! Holy shit dude it's like you're back from the dead or something! Sorry this reply is late. Been busy with work (RLP! - Real Life Problems!)

Spoiler for Obviously the only thing I care about in this series...:

Originally Posted by Amirali

The sad bit is, it is precisely that Gin cared more for Matsumoto than SS that drove a wedge between them. Whatever ravages Matsu suffered, she never blamed shinigami as a whole for the actions of a few; rather she was deeply loyal to Hitsu and the 10th squad. That must have rankled Gin, that Matsumoto would align herself with shinigami, while he was outside her trust despite all he was sacrificing to deceive Aizen. It makes one wonder, did Gin abandon Matsumoto, as was suggested in her first flashbacks of him? Or was it she that abandoned him unknowingly by growing close to shinigami, the species he hated?

I would agree that his desire to seek revenge against Aizen for what happened to Matsumoto pushed him to the point where he abandoned Matsumoto to do it. That begs the question, why did he think it was more important to accomplish his goal than be with her? Why did he think she would appreciate it MORE than his companionship? I think this is reflected pretty clearly in her frustration towards him, both when he leaves SS with Aizen for the first time and at his death. She can't understand why he did any of it, even though it was clearly for her sake.

To this end, I have two thoughts. The first being that Gin felt ashamed. When he was young he was powerless to help her at the time of her attack. He wasn't strong enough then, and perhaps he carried that guilt with him. Being with her and seeing her might have been too difficult for him to handle, so he left. Ichigo does the same when stuff gets hard. He withdraws from his friends and insists on doing everything alone. Rukia is always telling him to get over himself, but Rangiku didn't do that in this case. She didn't fight for him, she just let him go.

My second thought is that Gin needed a purpose. For better or worse, his goal to avenge what happened to Rangiku gave him something to work towards. It was the entire reason he trained and became a shinigami. It's been remarked by other characters that Gin was a genius. Urahara used his genius to create the hougyoku, Gin used his to take on the greatest villain in the history of SS from within. For better or worse, his plan to ultimately defeat Aizen gave his life purpose and meaning and as soon as it failed he let himself die. I think that's pretty telling. Sad and unfortunate, but telling.

while his initial desire may have been for revenge on Matsumoto's behalf, it's fair of Sabaku Kyu to say he essentially abandoned her to achieve it. He withdrew emotionally, he aligned against Matsumoto's friends and allies - in fact, the way Gin trolled and taunted Hitsugaya throughout the SS arc might be because he was jealous of his bond to Matsumoto. Otherwise really, why was Hitsu worthy of so much of Gin's attention?

I definitely agree that there may have been some petty jealousy where Hitsugaya was concerned. He is also a child genius, yet their roles couldn't be more different. Whereas Rangiku never seems to know what to do with herself around Gin, she openly jokes and laughs with Hitsu, openly throwing herself at him in the hopes of getting his attention. Hitsu also has the respect of pretty much everyone in SS despite his age - two things that I don't think Gin has ever had. Though they came from the same place, their lives turned out very differently and I wouldn't be surprised if he resents him for him.

Sabaku's point isn't that at that specific instant, Gin should have stopped Rangiku being gored from behind the wall of fire. Rather, Gin's actions in the decades leading prior, facilitated the growth of the Aizen threat that nearly killed her. Think about it. For all his good intentions, he succored, aided and protected Aizen, a man who was always gung-ho about eradicating shinigami that opposed him, including Captains, VCs and Matsumoto. What did Gin expect would happen when he let Aizen get the Hougoyoko? When he helped him conquer Hueco Mundo? When he hid Aizen's plans from SS? Couldn't he have foreseen that Aizen could hurt any shinigami alive?

Did he really succor, aid and protect him though? Look back at every scene we have with the two of them together. Gin's attitude is pure insubordination. He undermines his authority wherever possible and makes it obvious, even to Aizen's face, that he has no respect for him. When he left SS with him it wasn't out of a show of solidarity, it was because he literally had no other choice. That pillar of light (forget the name) came down and Yamamoto-san clearly said that once they are within it they are out of reach. Tousen went willingly with Aizen, but I don't think Gin actually wanted to leave. He didn't have a choice, Aizen ensured it. That's what makes that moment when he turns around and apologizes to Rangiku after expressing his wish to stay all the more poignant.

I don't know why he didn't cut him down while he was still a mortal shinigami, but I have some thoughts on it (of course I do...). Leaving aside that for most of their time together Aizen was superior in power, I think Gin wanted Aizen to reveal himself for what he truly was first. It was only after that point that his attempt at killing him would have been commended by anyone - most especially Rangiku. Without Aizen's admission of guilt, SS would have continued to believe that the sun shone out of his ass. Imagine how bitter a pill that must have been to swallow knowing that SS adored Aizen despite what he was and shunned Gin with just as much vigor. Killing Aizen before his big reveal would have made Gin a selfless martyr, which he had no reason to be for the sake of SS. By waiting he gave himself the chance to be great in their eyes, to prove (perhaps to himself?) that he was worthy of their respect. I think it is one of the greatest tragedies in Bleach that he was never able to realize his goal.

More to the point though, Gin had to wait, just as they all did, until that moment when Aizen tried to fuse with the hougyoku because only then would he be at his weakest. I don't think he was protecting Aizen for the sake of being sure that he was the only one that could have the chance to kill him. Obviously that was his end game goal, but considering how much stronger Aizen was than him he had to protect his trump cards carefully - and one of those was his knowledge of how to keep himself from being put under hypnosis. That's why he waited until that last possible second to use it. Telling SS, who was already all under hypnosis, how to stop Aizen's hypnosis would have been pointless. The only two characters who weren't under it were Gin and Ichigo. Ichigo was having an emo "I can't do this" moment, which temporarily took him out of the game leaving only Gin. So where some see senseless posturing, I see his genius at work.

As for the rest, insofar as Gin killing Shinigami or letting them die without remorse, I go back to my original point which was that he didn't care about any of them. And really, why should he? I'm not saying he is a saint, far from it, or that he should be entirely redeemed, but I think there are certain motives behind Gin's actions that should have been better explored. Kubo didn't do him justice at all.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I'm not sure Kira's feelings for Gin were entirely pure. No, not in that way (although now that I think about it, Kira has always seemed a little off in that respect). Think about it. We know from others' reactions to him (not to mention his own actions) that Gin was a cold-blooded snake of a stone killer. It's been shown numerous times that a shinigami's zanpakuto is representative of their inner selves. Well, the whole point of Kira's shikai is to make his opponent bow down under the weight of their own weapon so he can calmly take their head. That ain't healthy.

I see parallels between Kira and Gin for sure. Though I have to disagree with you about Kira's zanpaktou. I think his weapon is meant to punish arrogance - the jerk who rushes into battle assuming that because he's bigger and stronger he can take down his opponent without taking the time to evaluate him first. From that perspective it has a lot more meaning within the story, and it makes even more sense that he would respect Gin as his superior (despite all logic haha)

Perhaps Gin and Kira shared a hate of arrogance. I mean what was Aizen but the most arrogant meglomaniac to ever walk through the afterlife? And what is SS Academy but a breeding ground for more arrogant jerks due to the competitive atmosphere of the school?

Look at who is celebrated - both within SS and the manga readership - Kenpachi, Ichigo, Aizen, Grimmjow, Byakuya -> characters who are arrogant and kill without remorse. Arrogance is not a praised personality trait in Japan - far from it. It might be that through characters like Kira and Gin (and to some extent Ishida), the quiet, intelligent, yet strong ones (who end up saving the arrogant ones from their own rashness), Kubo is appealing to his Japanese audience. It would certainly explain why despite being a bit of a "moe" from a Western standpoint, Kira continues to be a strong player in the Japanese character popularity polls.

[Casshern]

That's the first time I've heard a good explanation for Kira's popularity. I still can't get over how over-rated and generally lame Kira's shikai is, though. Kenpachi would be happy to have a heavier weapon. A hundred times heavier weapon would make a hundred times happier Kenpachi. Gin's bankai is 13km and he wields it like it was nothing, not to mention that he's completely unaffected by the presumed recoil it must have when being shot at 500x the speed of sound. Somehow I don't believe that a heavier weapon would be much of a hindrance. Further evidence that captain class shinigami are simply unaffected by this kind of low-level crap is that Ichigo was also able to block Gin's bankai just as easily as Gin wields it. The physical weight of their weapons doesn't mean jack to them.

I would love to see Kenpachi grab Kira by the wrists and make him whack himself over the head with his own shikai in a typical "why are you hitting yourself?" scene, and Kira saying "I don't know but my head feels really heavyyyyyy*thump*".

Even a non-captain could overcome a shikai like that. The opponent just has to make sure his sword lands on-top of Kira's once it becomes too heavy to lift. Then they are both disarmed.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Gin's bankai is 13km and he wields it like it was nothing, not to mention that he's completely unaffected by the presumed recoil it must have when being shot at 500x the speed of sound. Somehow I don't believe that a heavier weapon would be much of a hindrance.

Actually Kubo explained in an interview that your own Zanpaktou is weightless to you because it's a part of you...

..which leads to the question of what exactly Kira's shikai is making heavier. Zero times anything is still zero.

Further evidence that captain class shinigami are simply unaffected by this kind of low-level crap is that Ichigo was also able to block Gin's bankai just as easily as Gin wields it. The physical weight of their weapons doesn't mean jack to them.

I think that's just Fridge Logic like above.

Originally Posted by Casshern

Kenpachi would be happy to have a heavier weapon. A hundred times heavier weapon would make a hundred times happier Kenpachi.

In all honesty I don't think Kenpachi should be used as a standard for anything...

[kakakka]

....

No thread yet?

Chapter out already

Spoiler for 467:

That kid vs. Another kid is yet to reach conclusion, but That kid has the upper hand and proposed a bargain.

Jackpot dude vs. Bald Dude. Jackpot dude's luck ran out. Bald dude ended the fight with his head.