Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Keroko

*shrug* I was just using the soul because it's the first I remembered being used.

Like I've said, I was using a term not from the MSLN world.

Originally Posted by Keroko

But what is 'magical' damage, then? Like I said, I don't like the 'attacking ones soul' idea.

It attacks the magical properties of the target.

How's that sounds?

Originally Posted by Keroko

But attacking someone's soul doesn't hurt, as it isn't physical damage. Where then, is the lesson?

Lesson of what?

Originally Posted by Keroko

Oh, another example: Nanoha fighting Vita the first time. Nanoha was confused as to why Vita was attacking her, and retaliated. Seeing Nanoha's personallity, she would not go for a deathblow without knowing why Vita attacked her. Now, according to the 'attacking the soul' theory, this would be the perfect time to attack the soul.

But wait! What happens? Vita's hat is torn to shreds. That means this attack delivered physical damage through magical means, as the hat should have remained untouched.

Could you tell me which attacks did Nanoha use?

And in my opinion, Barrier Jackets (The hat included ) are mostly magic-base, seeing as how they can come out of nowhere.

[felix]

Keroko
The idea wasn't that it damages their soul, it was that it damages or disturbs their magic linker-core thingy.
But you might be right, it might be that magic damage can't penetrate the body, based on how an AMF doesn't effect the mages, other then disabling them.

But then the question still remains, why are they hurting when hit by something like Nanoha's beam attacks which presumably won't do them any damage. Couldn't they just seal (or hold back) all their magical powers, wait until the beam finishes (it's not like it's going to do them any harm) then just unseal their powers and go beat up, now drained and weak, Nanoha.

[Avatar_notADV]

What about Signum and Fate dueling in S2? There were a couple of times where near-misses produced a "magical field" effect. Neither caster had anything like the time for a defensive spell, so it seems likely that the effect was caused by the barrier jacket turning the blow.

The first time Fate scored a scratch on Signum, it was definitely in an area where she was covered by her barrier jacket, and we didn't see a big rent in it sufficient to account for the tear, either, so obviously there's -something- in Fate's attacks beyond mere physical force, and that the barrier jacket is not an absolute defense - you can get hit under it without having it torn off first. (Or maybe it just self-repairs cuts?)

I'm not convinced that there's an absolute explanation, in the sense that they don't all work consistently. Certainly Fate's barrier jacket was torn pretty easily by Precia, even though it's unlikely that each of those attacks was stronger than the strongest Nanoha was throwing at Fate. (Of course, if it's the barrier jacket performing magical defense, naturally Precia's going to turn Fate's off.) Nanoha certainly got pounded by Vita, and her barrier jacket suffered extreme (if controlled) damage, but on the other hand we know Vita wasn't actually trying to -kill- Nanoha.

We also know that Nanoha's barrier jacket was in pretty good shape, when she got nailed after S2, for someone who needed extensive physical therapy to walk again. So either the animators weren't being consistent, or it's possible to gravely wound a magician without tearing up the barrier jacket too much.

It's also possible that the barrier jacket is more of an active defense than it looks, and that it takes some attention on behalf of the wearer for it to perform its "buff" functions. Certainly both Nanoha and Fate take some heavy fire on their respective jackets from time to time, without too much wear and tear to the bodies, but they're generally aware of the incoming attack. It's not too much to imagine that a sucker punch could get through, and it lets us resolve the torn-up Nanoha with the more-or-less intact barrier jacket - the surprise attack plus her stress buildup prevented her, not from putting up a defensive SPELL, but from putting the energy in defense so that she could suffer wardrobe damage instead of massive physical trauma.

(Then again, do we actually know that she had purely physical trauma? Could have just been a magical effect - if her nervous system's already kind of wavy due to throwing too many heavy magical punches, then the surge it took to keep her alive might have had some sort of backlash effect. Certainly Nanoha's not scarred up consistent with an injury of that magnitude! Though we have no way of knowing how much of that is due to the plastic surgeons of the TSA, of course. It would also account for why an attack that appeared to be -frontal- and concentrated on Nanoha's torso would have caused her problems walking in rehabilitation - if we're talking actual spinal damage, it would have ripped through just about everything and killed her just to get there, but a magical overload could have affected her normal nervous function without leaving big holes in important organs.)

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And in my opinion, Barrier Jackets (The hat included ) are mostly magic-base, seeing as how they can come out of nowhere.

True-true, I wouldn't have it the other way - BJ is ripped apart but the body is alright (mostly), there should be at least one scene like this in StrikerS

@Avatar_notADV:

Everything you mention could be either important pieces of information about the ways magic works in Nanohaverse or banal plotholes and producers' failures oh irony.

[Chaos2Frozen]

KHA?!?!

Where the hell are you?! Why am I fending them off on my own?!?!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by Cats

Keroko
The idea wasn't that it damages their soul, it was that it damages or disturbs their magic linker-core thingy.
But you might be right, it might be that magic damage can't penetrate the body, based on how an AMF doesn't effect the mages, other then disabling them.

The term 'soul' was just an example...

I use it to describe something on the inside of a living being, but not physical.

But then the question still remains, why are they hurting when hit by something like Nanoha's beam attacks which presumably won't do them any damage. Couldn't they just seal (or hold back) all their magical powers, wait until the beam finishes (it's no like it's going to do them any harm) then just unseal their powers and go beat up, now drained and weak, Nanoha.

You are assuming ALL of Nanoha's beam attacks are magical damage only

Recall how she trashed Precia's tin cans back in season 1.

And no, I don't think they can just make their magic vanish all of a sudden without external help. It's like in any RPG game, you can't just have your mana gone for no reason.

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

True-true, I wouldn't have it the other way - BJ is ripped apart but the body is alright (mostly), there should be at least one scene like this in StrikerS

If you're thinking of something from Negima...

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.

That's where mana potions come into play

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

That's where mana potions come into play

Yeah, except... You know, it's going to be complicating trying to drink in the middle of a combat zone...

And not to mention the fatigue...

[felix]

I like rejuvination potions.
Or just tapping on the other person's supply.

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

The first time Fate scored a scratch on Signum, it was definitely in an area where she was covered by her barrier jacket, and we didn't see a big rent in it sufficient to account for the tear, either, so obviously there's -something- in Fate's attacks beyond mere physical force, and that the barrier jacket is not an absolute defense - you can get hit under it without having it torn off first. (Or maybe it just self-repairs cuts?)

There's lightining associated with Fate's attack.. my guess.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Cats

I like rejuvination potions.
Or just tapping on the other person's supply.

A vampire mage, I had that idea for like ever...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

It attacks the magical properties of the target.

How's that sounds?

Lame, actually. If there's no risk of inury, there's no thrill.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Lesson of what?

Sorry, I was still refering to Teana's example (which is basically where this whole mess started. )

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Could you tell me which attacks did Nanoha use?

And in my opinion, Barrier Jackets (The hat included) are mostly magic-base, seeing as how they can come out of nowhere.

At that moment? It was a Divine Buster.

Originally Posted by Cats

Keroko
The idea wasn't that it damages their soul, it was that it damages or disturbs their magic linker-core thingy.
But you might be right, it might be that magic damage can't penetrate the body, based on how an AMF doesn't effect the mages, other then disabling them.

Not to mention the only time Linker Cores were damaged was during the Yami no Sho incident. All other times, the damage was physical.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

KHA?!?!

Where the hell are you?! Why am I fending them off on my own?!?!

Your precious Kleriker cannot help you here, foolish one....

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You are assuming ALL of Nanoha's beam attacks are magical damage only

Recall how she trashed Precia's tin cans back in season 1.

Ahh, but all of Nanoha's spells are purely magical in nature. But if you think magical spell, but physical impact, the tin-can incident suddenly makes sense.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And no, I don't think they can just make their magic vanish all of a sudden without external help. It's like in any RPG game, you can't just have your mana gone for no reason.

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.

That I agree on.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

If you're thinking of something from Negima...

Yes, Negima does seem to reverse engineer the Nanoha effect, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Cats

There's lightining associated with Fate's attack.. my guess.

The Scythe is purely magical.

I suppose I should explain my biggest gripe with this theory. This theory practically screams 'there is no risk of injury in Nanoha' going by this theory, it destroys all the tension in the first two seasons, because hey, they're only attacking the souls. No risk of killing them or anything. It's just... incredibly lame, as Hero in Disguise put it.

Juck, no thanks. If I wanted that I'd watch a normal magical girl show where people toss around pink hearts. Give me fatal injuries any day.

[Avatar_notADV]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Everything you mention could be either important pieces of information about the ways magic works in Nanohaverse or banal plotholes and producers' failures oh irony.

Which is my point, more or less. It's still possible to construct theories that are consistent with all observed examples and make at least some kind of sense, but it's getting hard, when it comes to barrier jacket function; Occam's Razor at this point suggests that it's purely plot armor and an excuse for frilly clothing instead of heavy metal. ;p

It's definitely the case that nobody sat down and thought of the rank structure of the TSA relative to where they stuck the characters in it. Lt. Col. at 19 is not merely preposterous, it's just not DONE. Ever. At this rate, it's virtually impossible that Hayate will not become, at some point, the senior serving officer in the TSA, barring death or super-early retirement (or going rogue, heh). It's also not done to have a captain and a lieutenant commanding two privates in a squad - either Tea and Subaru have a biiig promotion coming up, or the writers arbitrarily set Nanoha and Fate's ranks without really worrying about where everybody else would end up. (And Rein as their senior NCO? Oh, lord, oh, lord...)

We have to cut Nanoha the show some slack, because it's obvious that it's way way way past anything the original concept might have contained - it's some writer's joke gotten far out of hand here, and so we can expect to find holes in how things were treated. I personally find it fun to spin this kind of theory, even though I'm pretty certain that it's not actually anywhere in the mind of the writers, even to the extent that any of them are even worried about things like internal consistency and backstory and world creation. (On a professional basis, I've been disappointed this way before - come up with competing theories that would have an effect on the translation, asked the Japanese which one was closer to what they had in mind, and gotten a response of "whoa, man, we just did all this 'cause it looked cool".)

Come to think of it, I've been doing this for a good chunk of my life... I remember haunting the Star Trek technical echo in the days before the internet. ;p

Finally, it's safe to assume that there's no Nanoha equivalent of Ether potions, more or less because they'd be very useful to weaker mages (like the ones in wide use in the TSA), yet we haven't seen any direct evidence of them. We know that the TSA will adapt to use useful technologies if they offer a significant advantage, because of their widespread adoption of the cartridge system. If they can issue clips of the things to grunts like Teana and Subaru for training use, they could pass around the magic Gatorade to everybody too...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Lame, actually. If there's no risk of inury, there's no thrill.

It's a means to an end.

Recall what I've said about plasma weapons against the Elites' shields? Magic damage gets rid of magical properties so that the physical portion could be expose to fire.

Sorry, I was still refering to Teana's example (which is basically where this whole mess started. )

You still have to be more specific , exactly which part of her lesson...

At that moment? It was a Divine Buster.

Now, I'm pretty sure divine buster is a mix of both types of damage

Not to mention the only time Linker Cores were damaged was during the Yami no Sho incident. All other times, the damage was physical.

*sneezedcoughhipcupfatecoughsneezedhipcup*

Your precious clericker cannot help you here, foolish one....

What did you do? Touch him?

Ahh, but all of Nanoha's spells are purely magical in nature. But if you think magical spell, but physical impact, the tin-can incident suddenly makes sense.

Magic DAMAGE

Why the heck would they be called magic spells if they're made by anything but magic ?

The Scythe is purely magical.

I suppose I should explain my biggest gripe with this theory. This theory practically screams 'there is no risk of injury in Nanoha' going by this theory, it destroys all the tension in the first two seasons, because hey, they're only attacking the souls. No risk of killing them or anything. It's just... incredibly lame, as Hero in Disguise put it.

Juck, no thanks. If I wanted that I'd watch a normal magical girl show where people toss around pink herts. Give me fatal injuries any day.

Listen to me, VERY carefully...

They can CHOOSE whether anot to use which ever TYPE of damage. And MOST of the time, it's USUALLY a mixed of BOTH.

That means, IF they want to use PHYSICAL damage, they CAN do so and it would result in a bloody mess.

[felix]

If the damage was mixed, why the fuss over AMF?!

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Cats

If the damage was mixed, why the fuss over AMF?!

BECAUSE, the AMF disrupts the spell altogether. Not the type of damage, but the whole damn thing.

It doesn't matter what type of spell it is, if it's caught in it's field, it would begin to fall apart (Though at different rate...).

Only certain special spells are designed with properties that can overcome this effect.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

A vampire mage, I had that idea for like ever...

Don't remind me of vampire mages, I'm trying to give up on my Prophet/Necromancer

Back on topic: talking about AMF again - I really, REALLY was expecting more out of it that they've shown so far. The heroes have way too little problems dealing with it that could be expected after all the fuss in manga and first episodes.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Listen to me, VERY carefully...

They can CHOOSE whether anot to use which ever TYPE of damage. And MOST of the time, it's USUALLY a mixed of BOTH.

That means, IF they want to use PHYSICAL damage, they CAN do so and it would result in a bloody mess.

I'm going to stop quoting everything and get back to the source of what started this discussion. Chaos, don't take this personally, this is aimed at everyone. You're just the unlucky chap who's post I quoted.

If I recall, this 'physical damage/soul damage' thing started after Teana survived two direct hits from Nanoha, seemingly without even single scrath on her body. This sparked discussion because there was absolutely no damage to be seen, this is also when people dragged up the other incidents where this happened and decided to explain it by going with the soul/spirit/linker whatever you want to call it damage. The only reason this started was to explain why people could survive direct hits without a scratch.

Everyone still with me so far? Good, let's continue.

Now, let me ask you, how much evidence do we have that this so called 'non-physical damage' exists? None. 'But Keroko, look at Fate! Look at Teana! They survived direct hits from powerfull beam blasts without a scratch! It can't be physical damage!' Why not? During A's Nanoha and Fate get tossed through buildings regularely, and get out without a scratch. Are you saying that getting tossed through a building is 'non-physical damage' as well? No, obviously that is physical damage, and yet both Nanoha and Fate get up, clutch a random body part in pain and get back to fighting, despite the fact that there is not a single surface wound.

So we've established that beams deliver physical damage, purely because there is no evidence stating otherwise. So how do we explain that people keep getting hit and comming out without a scratch? Well, instead of looking at the ofensive and start theorycrafting, let's look at it's direct oposite: Defense. There are many types of defense, and most are outwardly defending the blow before it hits the body. Shields, fields, barriers, we've been through them, and nobody used them during the incidents mentioned. But they still have one more layer of defense, one that is a lot less dramatic, yet we can't imagine our doom-girls without them: Barrier jackets. Is it not possible for a barrier jacket to nullify, or at least extremely reduce, the impact of a beam of destruction? We know they are defensive material, it has been mentioned multiple times. So why do we ignore them as if they don't exist? Why can't it be possible that it is not the beam, but the defense in question that makes sure people don't get a single scratch?

Think about it. It makes more sense, and has a lot less unproven theories in it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Back on topic: talking about AMF again - I really, REALLY was expecting more out of it that they've shown so far. The heroes have way too little problems dealing with it that could be expected after all the fuss in manga and first episodes.

Depends on which heroes you're talking about.

The drones are definately of no match to Nanoha/Fate/Signum/Vita.

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Don't remind me of vampire mages, I'm trying to give up on my Prophet/Necromancer

Back on topic: talking about AMF again - I really, REALLY was expecting more out of it that they've shown so far. The heroes have way too little problems dealing with it that could be expected after all the fuss in manga and first episodes.

Well, they could introduce a Godzilla-sized drone with an AMF EX+++.
Seems like the output of the ones shown so far are the best the current drones can do. I think the strength of output and size are the important points in the effectiveness of AMF's.

@Chaos: This looks like fun. Mind if I join in to even out the numbers?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

@Chaos: This looks like fun. Mind if I join in to even out the numbers?

You can start by helping me dig out proof that the term 'magic damage' is not fan made...

[Aaron008R]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You can start by helping me dig out proof that the term 'magic damage' is not fan made...

Yuuno ordered Nanoha to hit Reinforce with as much MAGIC damage as she can during A's. Will that do?