2012-03-06, 16:26 | Link #28061 | ||
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2012-03-06, 16:34 | Link #28062 | |
The True Culprit
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Plus, Ryukishi designed his answer so that it couldn't be 'copypasted', so we can't really tell you anyway.
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2012-03-07, 01:03 | Link #28063 | |
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So yeah, it really can't be copy and pasted without copy and pasting nearly 1/3 of every episode (which I will attempt to do later) and to explain it all would be to write another lengthy explanation the size of probably 1/3 of all of Umineko. I will still attempt to do this later, but since most people have read it already I can cut out a ton of explanations... |
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2012-03-07, 03:45 | Link #28064 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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The author doesn't want people to just look up the answer on the internet, and he intentionally wrote Umineko such that people just looking up the answer online wouldn't really understand. He wanted to reward those who would take the time to read it and think about it, which, at this moment, is not you. So, we could give you "answers", but you wouldn't be able to properly appreciate them even if we did. It's not really something I should be obligated to defend, since it wasn't me who claimed "pieces cannot act out of character" in the first place. If we don't find the Kyrie presented to us in EP7 to be believable then it's simply because we've found that EP7 Kyrie failed live up to the aforementioned claim. |
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2012-03-07, 05:06 | Link #28065 | ||||
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The reason this can exist, though, is that honestly, there's nothing STOPPING any given person from creating a forgery with shoddy premises, odd characterization, or whatever red truths they should like. I could literally, write now, go make a forgery themed around Jessica using murder to get Natsuhi to admit that her hair is dyed. And I'll have Natsuhi behave like a tsundere 14 year old, because geez, why not. Krauss will spend the entire episode shirtless, and noone will comment. And it's not like you can stop me from doing that, or anything ... you'd probably a.) read it for the lulz, if that's how you get your lulz and b.) completely disregard it as a "legitimate" forgery, because I barely even tried to make it one. Quote:
However, just like I think "Ryukishi generally portrayed his characters as he meant them to be in their real lives", despite the explicit lack of such an assurance, I'm also assuming that the forgeries that turned up were, at least, "rather similar" to the stories we read, sans Meta-World shenanigans. My only real argument is that I see little benefit in assuming they were wildly different, or something. |
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2012-03-07, 08:40 | Link #28066 | |||
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Although I do wonder about the appearance of certain characters in the stories. IIRC people commented that Shannon would be able to wear a dress to fool Maria into thinking that Beatrice gave her the letter. As well that the story of EP7 when Yasuda figures out the epitaph that Yasuda was given a dress which made her look like her mother Beatrice. So assuming that the whole Beatrice=Shannon=Kanon is true, then aren't the two suppose to be blonds considering that even Lion has blond hair. Assuming that they dyed their hair but even that was not implied IIRC. Maybe on Rprime they are all blond. I found that misleading as when I read episode 1-2, I suspected Jessica to the culprit due to the blond hair, vulgar way of speaking, that she knew her way around thus would be able to plan the murders, good relation to the servants and knew that Natsuhi had the scorpion charm. |
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2012-03-07, 09:17 | Link #28067 | ||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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In any case, as people have mentioned, nobody can give you a quick, straight answer. It may be relatively clear (IMO) who committed the fictional murders even if it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't got enough info, but on the real Rokkenjima...it's not so clear, but neither is it a total mystery. Taking me here, personally I'd say that the person who seems to be pointed towards as the Rokkenjima Prime culprit couldn't have done it, and that that in turn points towards a limited number of other possibilities. The reasons for why that is is tied up in all of the story so far, as would be the answers other people would give you for their opinions. So even if I explained my opinion in depth, since you haven't read the novels it wouldn't mean anything much to you. Basically, if you're not interested enough to read the novels, any answers you might get are answers that would take so long to tell you that you would get bored long before whoever told you was finished. And that's what Ryukishi intended. |
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2012-03-07, 11:17 | Link #28068 | |
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2012-03-07, 12:54 | Link #28070 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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But I certainly think that Kyrie's evil-to-the-core nature was exaggerated, especially the thing about her taking pleasure in killing all the innocents, and even more so in her not caring about Ange. And, like what Kealym said, certain things she did didn't make logical sense, even as a villain. It's definitely an anti-Kyrie take on things. The question is: How embellished is it? |
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2012-03-07, 14:43 | Link #28071 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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I think EP7 tea party is not very close to the content of the book of one truth. While i think a similar situation may have played in the room with the gold, but without all the going around and killing everyone by Rudolph and Kyrie.
Because then Battler's coming to Rokkenjima didn't really influence anything as the silblings would have just solved the epitaph anyway... Also I am convinced that a "Murder Mystery Game" happened too. Otherwise all of the Epitaph murders in EP1-6 would have been pointless. |
2012-03-07, 16:51 | Link #28072 | |||||||
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Let's assume that Yasu wrote the messages in the bottles BEFORE the incident and really tossed them in the sea and then that Lion represents Ikuko/Yasu who actually survived the incident and that she would have liked to explain things to Ange (remember? Ikuko wanted Toya and Ange to meet). However the tales had given life to the forgeries and the assorted theories turning the narrator/Clair into a puppet in the hands of Bern (who here represents just people wanting to throw dirt on the Ushiromiya family for their own fun). The Ushiromiya family culprit theory has birth and is tossed in the face of Ange who's deeply hurt (and possibly committed suicide due to it as she's curretly vanished) before Lion/Yasu/Ikuko had the time to explain her something... or could get how the situation developed in such a terrible way (Lion didn't really explain much to Ange and hardly understood what was going on). Quote:
Apparently, when Maria met Beatrice, she believed Beato was possessing Shannon or so Ep 7 implied so Shannon didn't really need to dress up. Though she might have done it in Ep 2 (unless Kyrie was lying about seeing her) and she definitely did it in Ep 4... though it wasn't Beato's trademark dress but a more casual one. Quote:
I don't really like to think that Shannon might have had to die her hair starting when she was a kid and no one noticed. Though probably the sprites' hair colours aren't mean to be taken seriously. Kanon's hair is different in colour than Shannon's. Either he wear a wig or Yasu is costantly dying her hair to allow switching from Kanon to Shannon and back. Quote:
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The cousins were probably fairly consistent as they had many schoolmates who can testify how they were but what about the siblings and the servants? Likely the face they presented to the outside world was their businnes one, not the gentler one they had when they were in company of their beloved family. Eva loved her husband and son but the world believed she was capable to rutlessly murder them along the others. I take it as a hint that the people who said/knew she loved them deeply were few and went unheard compared to the ones that might have said that she was ruthless and bad tempered and would step over everyone to get what she wished. So the world knew her more for a person who was ruthless than for a loving mother and wife... and the same goes for many characters so if you were to portray them in a forgery like loving people who get along... well, the world wouldn't believe you... even if you might have been spot on. Quote:
The best Eva could have known is that Kirye shoot Rosa and after her and Hideyoshi and then claimed she killed everyone and Rudolf claimed he killed George. Nothing more. Also I think the worst part for Ange was likely that the book said that NO ONE WOULD COME BACK. I think deep down she still hoped someone would manage to return and this was the worst truth ever for her. Quote:
And likely the TeaParty reports a theory going on in 1998... and since Yasu wasn't supposed to be the culprit to the forgers Battler's return was meaningless. |
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2012-03-07, 17:28 | Link #28073 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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Just read through the summary of Hane (I think), and I'm left confused with something.
I always took episode 6 as a huge hint when Erika trolled Battler and killed off the everyone pretending to be dead, but in Hane, in the game Beatrice creates, she is clearly the culprit. Any thoughts on this? |
2012-03-07, 17:58 | Link #28075 | |||
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And then in EP8 while playing cards: Quote:
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2012-03-08, 04:09 | Link #28077 |
The True Culprit
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Yea, you're speaking of Our Confession. To be quite frank, while 'Yasu' is the culprit of her Gameboards (which is something we already knew), she doesn't seem to be the culprit of the REAL world, or atleast not the sole culprit, according to Ryukishi herself. She creates these Gameboards to take all the blame upon herself, and protect whoever is implicit in the crime.
Dlanor herself seems to forward this line of thinking. While there is the Fantasy and Mystery sides of the tale, Dlanor implores the audience to find a 'third' side to the tale; perhaps the truth being covered up.
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2012-03-08, 04:53 | Link #28078 | |||||||
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Most people agree that the human's appearances aren't meant to be serious, as Beatrice's blonde hair and blue eyes are explicitly called out constantly for being foreign, and you'd think he'd at least mention Jessica's hair being dyed considering all the other absurd amount of details we get. Even by anime-hair logic, the Ushiromiya's don't make much sense, so... the only counter is Bern mentioning that Erika has blue hair like her, but we can chalk that up to them being kinda maybe aware that they're in the story that we ourselves are reading. Quote:
And I can't be the only one honestly surprised Maria's father didn't get a single line. Or at least some offhand mention of how the media had also been bothering him a little. Quote:
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Well... Battler was in a very, VERY different position between the Question arcs and the Chiru arcs. He was originally being besieged by mysteries by a seemingly evil troll witch he couldn't get. Then in Chiru he had to fight to even be acknowledged as the main character, then seemingly solved everything, then WAS the seemingly evil troll witch, and then was something between an old man's displaced memory and a teenaged girls delusions. And then there's EP5 Virgilia telling him outright "See, she wasn't an evil troll. She was shy and stupid. Go on and hug her now, boy." |
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2012-03-08, 05:59 | Link #28079 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Well, there was some reconciliation in EP8... And I got all mushy inside when Ange called Eva "mom" |
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2012-03-08, 08:57 | Link #28080 | ||
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Well of course this only makes sense if "Ikukoshkanontrice" is true. I think it is like that: In prime Yasuda made a murder mystery game for Battler where no people died, so everyone hid in the guesthouse. There Eva and Battler solved the epitaph together and... well i am not sure how it went on, but maybe at some point after that Battler told Shannon that he did remember the promise and George could not accept it... He got a Winchester somehow and shot Battler (not a moral wound of course) or attacked him in hand to hand combat and beat him up pretty badly... which later led to his "brain damage". Kyrie, who already was informed by Rudolph, that Battler is her real son, got angry and shot George... then Eva came and thought "I knew it! Kyrie is a heartless bitch!" without knowing that George almost killed Battler... and so she shot Kyrie... then Eva and Shannon took Battler and tried to get to Kuwadorian because they all thought that someone has become a real murderer and on their way there, the bomb exploded because Eva didn't trust "Beatrice's" explanation about the bomb and switched it to active unintentionally.... So all people involved in the murder mystery game died... and Shannon got paranoid that Eva may have been the murderer and ran away with Battler who was still injured and escaped by boat, while Eva was rescued from Kuwadorian later. Then Yasuda took her identity as Ikuko Hachijou that she prepared for 2 years and used her money to also give Battler a fake identity as Hachijou Tohya. Then people found 2 message bottles that Yasuda threw into the sea before the incident for fun, because she was too shy to show her own literature work to anyone. But the witch hunters misunderstood that and thought of it as a challenge from the murderer or something like that and published it... Convinced that Eva was the culprit (while still thinking that she herself was responsible that the killings happened because of her murder mystery game, so she also showed herself as the culprit in it), Ikuko released Banquet o.t.g.W. Then Eva died and Ikuko got her hands on the "book of one truth" and realized that Eva was not the culprit. Ikuko released Alliance o.t.g.W. to show that she still didn't know what really happened and as it was in the game itself, "all events were covered in the witches' darkness". Then there was a very popular forgery by a witch hunter that showed Natsuhi as the murderer. Ikuko and Tohya tried to somehow overthrow this story, but they couldn't do it (Visualized by the trial scene), and at the end people started losing interest over the 19^9 works. But then a miracle happened: Tohya suddenly remembered his memories of the incident! And now that he had remembered it, Ikuko had all 3 fragments of the truth together: Her own, Eva's and Battler's. By combining them, she found the "one and only truth" and released an alternate version of the witch-hunter's forgery, where some scenes were changed, like the fact that the first 6 people only faked their death, and also had a different ending. They released it under the name "End o.t.g.W." Then Tohya said that he wants to create his own work too, so he created "Dawn o.t.g.W." I think "Requiem o.t.g.W." is just the EP7TP forgery... i have no idea what EP7 itself could mean in prime... And "Twilight o.t.g.W."? Probably the mystery of Bern... and EP8 itself probably was something that happened in Ange's mind. Well that is my incomplete theory of Rokkenjima prime. And... to put it into Erika's words: "What do you think, everyone?" Quote:
As you can see above, i think that Battler in EP1-2 is only a fictional construct in Yasuda's mind. In EP3-4 it was already a bit different. Piece!Battler was not so naive to think that it was not someone from the "18" people. Instead he reached the conclusion that it was Eva. Which already shows that the Battler here is able to cope with the murders, while the one from EP1-2 was like "It was some 19th person" or "it was a witch". And in EP5 it was the personality that a witch hunter found out by asking Battler's friends from his high school. EP6 confirms that... In these 2 episodes Battler is much more intelligent, than in the first 4. All you have to do is comparing how he was trying to solve the epitaph in Legend and in End, then you will see that. Also i remember how he had the knowledge of a newborn baby in Legend... The others had to explain him so many things that almost all others knew about very well... Please note that i am comparing the Piece!Battlers here and not the developing of Meta!Battler. Oh and to throw in another theory of mine: The truth is hidden in the "cheerful" conversation of the cousins. I still didn't check if that is really true, but most of the important clues for the games (and possibly prime), can be found in these seemingly trival conversations. Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-08 at 09:17. |
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