AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-04-29, 12:43   Link #32181
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Also...are you sure about that first line, that Shannon's the only girl Jessica's known for a long time? I got the impression that Jessica was pretty popular at school, so she probably has a lot of other friends besides Shannon.
I don't mean to exclude school friends, but she can only spend so much time around them. Shannon is the only one she sees at home, the one who has been around longest, and the one she's interacted with at family conferences. She'd by necessity be the closest person just by factor of time, and she's the only person who could have passing interactions with Jessica that escape Natsuhi's scrutiny, because the entire purpose of Shannon being there is to both do work (which necessitates being around) and hang out with Jessica (which necessitates being around).

I'm not aware of Jessica going and hanging out with friends on a regular basis, and it's implied Natsuhi would not allow it. But at times when Natsuhi couldn't stop it, such as when Jessica's stranded on Niijima by the rain, you'd think she'd call her friend if she happens to also be in town.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 14:16   Link #32182
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, it depends a lot on whether she actually did fool Jessica and the family, doesn't it?

Besides, it would still strike me as extremely risky on Yasu's part. Kanon was already reluctant to go, but agreeing to do it just seems like a huge risk for no identifiable benefit. The last thing she needs is somebody who is a little too perceptive noticing her, and she has to assume the people who will be present at the school are going to be people who have seen her in the past.

It's a weird risk and is easier to explain if Kanon's actual existence is very judiciously utilized. But since we seem to have effective confirmation that someone appeared at the school festival with Jessica, it's hard to just handwave the scene away. If Kanon was living a regular, regulated existence, this just seems like a needless risk. If Kanon barely exists at all, it's easier to get away with... but then it becomes nearly impossible to believe Jessica wouldn't know.
Well, it surely fooled Battler and Erika. We can assume Erika never really looked at Kanon and Shannon but Battler apparently had the chance to talk with both and give them both a good look.

Honestly I find hard to think that Jessica would be fooled but here in the past they did rather funny joke programs in which a well known person would disguise as someone else and people would fall for it if the setting seemed reasonable enough. In short, if they had no reason to doubt that person's identity they would maybe notice some resemblance with someone else but not pay too much attention to it.

So maybe that's what what happened to Jessica. I think it'll be harder to fool Natsuhi due to her controlling schedules and servant work (and weren't they worried anymore about the whole issue of the person of X years ago?).
Even assuming Genji and Kumasawa would help her it would require them to do extra work and not be discovered by Natsuhi or another servant who might report it to Natsuhi.

On a sidenote I'll be interested to know how Yasu's life at school was. From the way things are presented it doesn't really seem like she made friends so... was she just being avoided by others or was she being bulllied when Jessica wasn't looking?
was this another common point she had with Maria?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Were I to be cynical, I'd say Ryukishi just assumed that Yasu had no friends and saw no reason to outright state as such, given that he doesn't seem to adequately understand the implications of Jessica and Shannon being friends for most of their lives but barely acting like it at any point ever in the actual story. I'd question how well he understands any relationships at all.
Ironically I said for all of his talking about understanding the heart Ryukishi paid to the fulness of Yasu's heart little regard.

We know about the HUGE drama in her life but next to nothing about her ordinary life. Incidentally it's the good in your ordinary life that helps you to deal with the dramas in your life.
It pushes people to think there was nothing good in her life but... wasn't Shannon respected more by the other young servants because she was the most experienced now? Okay for Gohda who's older and might not be respectful but what about the others? When Jessica called her and that other servant girl in her room they seemed to get along... was this not true?
Was what remained of Yasu's life out of her dramas completely unimportant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We noticed the same thing. I think they try very hard to read meaning into everything, but this one is especially bizarre because the only evidence we have ever for Kyrie not loving Ange is the things she says to Eva about her, and it's blatantly obvious what she's doing in that scene.
Yes, it's pretty hard to take that scene at face value. We've learnt how hard she pursued Rudolf, how she couldn't let him go and now that the guy's dead she was all: that's good I finally got back my freedom again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't see why she wouldn't, though. What was wrong with her at that age? Certainly it's an unusual situation but there's nothing to suggest she acts weird (like Maria) or is unusually sullen and disliked (like Ange) or a dorky creeper (like George). And apparently as Lion she's incredibly popular! It's a weird disconnect. It's making her unpopular and ignored largely because that's what you expect out of her character. At least the other servants have reasons to behave like huge bitches (it's competitive, Yasu's getting special treatment, etc.).
Well, I agree it's not developed well, even if you don't really need to have a specific reason in order not to be liked. In the orphanage she didn't have any friends and she still relies on imaginary friends so maybe she wasn't good at interacting with others. Maybe she wasn't that bad, not to the point they'll bully her but maybe... she was just someone who tagged along when she was free but didn't get any special attention. There's plenty of people that just... aren't shiny enough to be noticed so it's not that others avoid them on purpose it's just... they forgot about them because yes, you can stay with them but they aren't that interesting so you'll aim to be with someone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Shannon is basically the only girl even close to her age that Jessica supposedly has known for a long period of time, and the one she would presumably spend the most time around. Ignore whether Yasu isn't social. Jessica is social, goes to school with Shannon/Yasu, and desperately wants to do stuff away from the island... but never suggests that the two of them hang out, or go to lunch, or even maybe try to con Natsuhi into letting them go anywhere (on the basis that hey, Shannon will be with me)? If this sort of thing ever happened, we never hear about it. I'd think Jessica would've at least tried this once, and I can't see any reason why Shannon would refuse.
Yes, Jessica's friendship for Shannon seems pretty meaningless. It's true sometimes she's dealing with the death of her relative also but you would think Shannon's death would have more of an impact on her.

It makes their friendship hollow and this is underlined by how Kanon always have no chances to win over Shannon. Actually it should be easier for him to have a deeper relation with Jessica as he knows her by longer time and spent with her more time than Shannon with George, who's not even the most caring boyfriend one can wish to have. Yet, Jessica will always lose to George.

But even Battler is... pretty cold toward Shannon's death even if in Ep 3 & 5 he'll point out she was his first love.

But well, the most weird part of all is when Battler seemed completely unprepared to a family loss when actually he just had 3 (his mother and his grandparents). He should have worked up a rationalization and yet that's not the case.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 14:50   Link #32183
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
We know about the HUGE drama in her life but next to nothing about her ordinary life. Incidentally it's the good in your ordinary life that helps you to deal with the dramas in your life.
It pushes people to think there was nothing good in her life but... wasn't Shannon respected more by the other young servants because she was the most experienced now? Okay for Gohda who's older and might not be respectful but what about the others? When Jessica called her and that other servant girl in her room they seemed to get along... was this not true?
Was what remained of Yasu's life out of her dramas completely unimportant?
Well there was that scene where Kanon went to "save Battler from the logic error" in EP6. There Kanon (and so by extension Yasu) gave some insight about the positive aspects of his life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But even Battler is... pretty cold toward Shannon's death even if in Ep 3 & 5 he'll point out she was his first love.
In EP1 Battler listed the names of the dead people from the first twilight... guess who was the only one he did not mention by name?

The irony here was that he was technically right, after all there were only 5 corpses.
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 15:31   Link #32184
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well there was that scene where Kanon went to "save Battler from the logic error" in EP6. There Kanon (and so by extension Yasu) gave some insight about the positive aspects of his life.
Problem with that is a lot of those things seem a touch inconsistent. To whom did they apply? Did Yasu have a close relationship with Kinzo? Did Kanon? When did Kanon? There wasn't a whole lot of time between Kanon's creation and Kinzo's "death," though there's considerably more if it applied to Yasu.

But if it did, then uh... did Kinzo know what was going on? It's an unusually friendly gesture on his part. Actually, Kinzo's unusually nice to Kanon in general. When did that start? What part of that applies? What was it he suspected?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 17:01   Link #32185
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
In EP1 Battler listed the names of the dead people from the first twilight... guess who was the only one he did not mention by name?

The irony here was that he was technically right, after all there were only 5 corpses.
Well, Battler couldn't say Shannon's name because he didn't see her and, in fact, she wasn't there. I guess he'd suspected she was a corpse in that corner but, like everyone else waited for Hideyoshi's confirmation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Problem with that is a lot of those things seem a touch inconsistent. To whom did they apply? Did Yasu have a close relationship with Kinzo? Did Kanon? When did Kanon? There wasn't a whole lot of time between Kanon's creation and Kinzo's "death," though there's considerably more if it applied to Yasu.

But if it did, then uh... did Kinzo know what was going on? It's an unusually friendly gesture on his part. Actually, Kinzo's unusually nice to Kanon in general. When did that start? What part of that applies? What was it he suspected?
There's also to add that Ep 8 pictures Kinzo as a lot more nice guy than the other episodes although all the episodes agree in saying he's moody.
So... was he alternatively nice and then a yelling jerk when things didn't go his way?
So had he been that nice with Yasu only or, provided you were to meet him in a good time, he was nice with everyone (maybe Natsuhi put aside)?
It's interesting how Battler's narrative seem to always focus on the good sides of the people (Rosa who's the type who keep her promises, Eva and Hideyoshi who're so friendly and funny and so on) and that in Ep 6 (which is technically written by him) we've Kanon, who's generally the one that complain about everyone, also saying nice stuffs about people.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 02:27   Link #32186
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Small notes, but

1. I'm almost certain that in the EP7 narrative, Yasu claimed to actually have several friends / was friendly with a few other kids at school, but implied that it wasn't something that extended outside of school, itself.

2. Jessica and Battler were both consistently described as outgoing, friendly kids who got on well with both boys and girls. Jessica in particular seems insanely popular at school (she apparently got elected Student Council Head just off that, right?), and is ALSO friends enough with all the Fukuin servants that she knows their birthdays and gets them personalized gifts each year. EP7 shows her hanging out with, was it the Asmodeus and Beelzebub maids? Talking about boys and stuff, even though they were probably a couple years older than her at that point.

What I'm getting at is that while Jessica was probs Yasu's best friend, I kinda have my doubts about Yasu being Jessica's best friend, in turn.

3. While I agree that Kanon, if he was played at all, was probably used very very sparsely, the fact still remains that nobody overtly tries to deny him, post-86. For what these arguments are worth, the surviving Fukuin kids raise no red flags about him, Ange doesn't find him a strange element, and Tohya does have the flash memory of Kanon is that "who are these people, calling me by a strange name in the past?!" segment.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 06:00   Link #32187
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
3. While I agree that Kanon, if he was played at all, was probably used very very sparsely, the fact still remains that nobody overtly tries to deny him, post-86.
The goats in EP8 represent ideas in the future, no?

Quote:
Goat:「......Kanon is an illusion...... An illusion created by a lonely Jessica......」

Jessica: "At the school festival, I introduced Kanon-kun to everyone!! Saku, and Hina, and everyone else!! All of my friends can testify to that!! Don't make assumptions about our relationship based on your own imagination!!"
Jessica's defense is paper-thin. The other maids would make for much better witnesses, but they aren't brought up.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 08:10   Link #32188
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Ange's memories are explicitly unreliable. Battler brings this up in ep8 and I think it's a fair point; the last time she'd have probably even been there, she was five.

So the fact that Ange doesn't question Kanon doesn't mean much. It's everybody else, and especially people in the future, that raises a problem here. At best, we would have to assume Genji faked records for Kanon to suggest he was a Fukuin orphan... but then why didn't anybody who was a Fukuin graduate say "Wait, I never heard of anybody like that while I was there, and I grew up there around the same time?" Kanon simply did not exist until Yasu created him, and if Genji faked an identity for him, it couldn't also be Yasu's identity without throwing up enormous red flags to any Witch Hunter who isn't an idiot.

Which appears to be none of them.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 11:17   Link #32189
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ange's memories are explicitly unreliable. Battler brings this up in ep8 and I think it's a fair point; the last time she'd have probably even been there, she was five.

So the fact that Ange doesn't question Kanon doesn't mean much. It's everybody else, and especially people in the future, that raises a problem here. At best, we would have to assume Genji faked records for Kanon to suggest he was a Fukuin orphan... but then why didn't anybody who was a Fukuin graduate say "Wait, I never heard of anybody like that while I was there, and I grew up there around the same time?" Kanon simply did not exist until Yasu created him, and if Genji faked an identity for him, it couldn't also be Yasu's identity without throwing up enormous red flags to any Witch Hunter who isn't an idiot.

Which appears to be none of them.
Yes, there are apparently some huge weak points in the investigations done in the future. Nobody questioned Kanon's existence for example but also nobody compared the writing in the message bottles with Shannon's.

They should have samples of it, if not at school then there are the letters George had. And, funny enough, the goats questioned Shannon's existence as well, for which proof wasn't given. The letters come in to testify Shannon's pure love for George.

The whole questioning of those characters existence though, is weird. The goats should know they existed because the police should have already checked on this. The best they could do would be to question if they were on the island that day, not if they existed.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 11:35   Link #32190
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Also, if Shannon was Yasu's servant name or servant identity in some capacity, they shouldn't have been able to question her existence because there was, in fact, such a person.

They might question her potrayal or appearance... but... the message bottles don't exactly have pictures. There are descriptions I suppose (at least of her chest), but the goats weren't attacking whether story-Shannon is wish-fulfillment, they were attacking her existence.

So like... how? And shouldn't it have been common knowledge that there was at least one servant who is unaccounted for and was probably on duty that weekend? If it wasn't "Shannon" or "Kanon," the people of the future should still be aware of it. The other servants should still be aware of it. If Yasu's name wasn't one of those two names, someone still would've pointed out that she should've been on the island at that point and that it's weird she isn't in the message bottle stories and is instead replaced by two servants none of them have ever heard of (or in Shannon's case, that retired years ago if there was a "model" Shannon servant).
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 12:58   Link #32191
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also, if Shannon was Yasu's servant name or servant identity in some capacity, they shouldn't have been able to question her existence because there was, in fact, such a person.

They might question her potrayal or appearance... but... the message bottles don't exactly have pictures. There are descriptions I suppose (at least of her chest), but the goats weren't attacking whether story-Shannon is wish-fulfillment, they were attacking her existence.

So like... how? And shouldn't it have been common knowledge that there was at least one servant who is unaccounted for and was probably on duty that weekend? If it wasn't "Shannon" or "Kanon," the people of the future should still be aware of it. The other servants should still be aware of it. If Yasu's name wasn't one of those two names, someone still would've pointed out that she should've been on the island at that point and that it's weird she isn't in the message bottle stories and is instead replaced by two servants none of them have ever heard of (or in Shannon's case, that retired years ago if there was a "model" Shannon servant).
Exactly. It's all rather messy.
When Ange reports the police's investigations and general discoveries, she never says anything about the servants as if everything was perfectly normal.

As the police investigated on the message in the bottle there was no need to keep secret it was written by one of the servants.

As for Kanon's not-existence it should be even easier to realize he doesn't exist. Even assuming Genji bribed the Fukuin house to confirm his existence he probably didn't bribe any single orphan there. And since the whole incident became popular facts about him being a Fukuin servant should have been known to them. Why none of them ever showed up saying "Fukuin servant? we never heard of him."
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 13:13   Link #32192
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
At the very least, there should be suspicion on Shannon and/or Kanon in the future, for multiple reasons:
  • They have very sketchy backstories which would be hard to confirm in reality.
  • The handwriting of the message bottles would not match the family's, but might match someone's (and did nobody bother to check?).
  • They were around other people, and appeared at discrete times, so even if people who worked in 1986 admitted they knew of a Kanon there should be people who went to Fukuin House in 1982 who would say they'd never heard of him.
  • Their off-island presence would be suspiciously minimal.
  • Both die under fairly mysterious circumstances in Legend and Turn, including Shannon dying in a true locked room mystery in ep2.
  • Shannon and Kanon are both special servants, which would seem to draw some attention. I mean, Genji is somewhat suspicious, why not focus on those two as well?
  • Shannon has been working for about ten years, meaning she's quite well-entrenched in the setting and might be aware of family politics the way another servant wouldn't. She was also close to the cousins. Doesn't that make her role at least worthy of looking into?
  • They seem to be reasonably important characters to ep2's narrative, depending upon how much of that (if any) actually existed in the story. If it did, their prominence and relationship to Beatrice should be giant red flags.
  • One of them will basically always be unaccounted-for, except when the two are conveniently together. In front of the narrator (assuming Battler's narration matches the stories'), one always is. Even if you don't believe they're the same person as a reader of the future, isn't that a bit suspicious?
  • They are the freaking obvious, wholly viable culprits of Legend and Turn if you actually try to solve them as mystery novels.
How do we resolve this? Were the message bottle stories entirely different from every single game board we saw? If so, what are ep1 and ep2?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 14:46   Link #32193
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Perhaps most of Kanon's identifying documentation was believed to be on Rokkenjima and was blown up by the Explosion Accident? I agree that the Fukuin House circumstances are odd, but it wouldn't be too far-fetched for "Kanon's information" to be thought to be held in Kinzo's study or under Genji's possession:
"Oh, well we have some documentation that Kanon was in fact learning at Fukuin House, but most of those documents were taken by Kinzo and Genji..." ...and was then blown up, or maybe it didn't actually exist in the first place. Regardless, people think it was blown up so it might not arouse suspicion for "why these documents aren't there."

That said, that opens up a new question of why Kanon's information was treated specially...

Grasping at straws here, but it might be that since being a servant at Rokkenjima mansion was considered an "internship-like opportunity", Fukuin House would give all relevant papers to Genji.

EDIT: Here's a thought... What if everyone in 1998 has figured out that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but that information is not relevant to the investigation of 'whodunnit'? I mean, everyone was dodging the fact that the fucking island blew up, maybe Shkanon was another thing that never really came up in Ange's investigations. I don't think any of the message bottles mentions anything about multiple personalities, so there's no direct relationship between the murders and Shkanon.
"Well, there was this fucking batshit crazy servant who pretended to be like three different people, but oh HEY Eva said that she didn't do it, today is the third Wednesday of the month on a prime-numbered month of a leap year and it's raining in Kansas so that means she's lying" or some shit

For us, we're concerned with that information only because the Metaworld's Red Truth requires Shkanon as a solution. In R-Prime, and from a "whodunnit" perspective even IN the Forgery 1998s, that stuff doesn't really matter unless they can tie it back to observable evidence.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2013-04-30 at 15:06.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 15:16   Link #32194
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Perhaps most of Kanon's identifying documentation was believed to be on Rokkenjima and was blown up by the Explosion Accident? I agree that the Fukuin House circumstances are odd, but it wouldn't be too far-fetched for "Kanon's information" to be thought to be held in Kinzo's study or under Genji's possession:
"Oh, well we have some documentation that Kanon was in fact learning at Fukuin House, but most of those documents were taken by Kinzo and Genji..." ...and was then blown up, or maybe it didn't actually exist in the first place. Regardless, people think it was blown up so it might not arouse suspicion for "why these documents aren't there."

That said, that opens up a new question of why Kanon's information was treated specially...
It's implausible to believe copies of government documents would not exist somewhere else. Fukuin is not some fly-by-night organization; it is apparently a well-known charity orphanage and its graduates are considered to have a degree of prestige, especially if they get the opportunity to work for the founder's family as a servant. Any orphan they take in is gonna be documented with the government, which means stuff like their birth records or at least their legal identity are going to be on file in places Genji cannot easily check. If Genji somehow faked Kanon's existence even so, he would not have done so in a manner that can only be verified by documentation that would've only been kept on Rokkenjima. That's exactly the opposite of what he'd be trying to accomplish in creating a public persona for Kanon.
Quote:
EDIT: Here's a thought... What if everyone in 1998 has figured out that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but that information is not relevant to the investigation of 'whodunnit'? I mean, everyone was dodging the fact that the fucking island blew up, maybe Shkanon was another thing that never really came up in Ange's investigations. I don't think any of the message bottles mentions anything about multiple personalities, so there's no direct relationship between the murders and Shkanon.
"Well, there was this fucking batshit crazy servant who pretended to be like three different people, but oh HEY Eva said that she didn't do it, today is the third Wednesday of the month on a prime-numbered month of a leap year and it's raining in Kansas so that means she's lying" or some shit

For us, we're concerned with that information only because the Metaworld's Red Truth requires Shkanon as a solution. In R-Prime, and from a "whodunnit" perspective even IN the Forgery 1998s, that stuff doesn't really matter unless they can tie it back to observable evidence.
What kind of idiot would think that's irrelevant information? It's bizarre. Why would anybody do that? If that was happening, is the person doing it mentally ill? Wouldn't a mentally ill person be a good suspect? Sure, some people would still argue Eva did it because there's a very plausible set of circumstantial points that suggest Eva as a suspect; but people will apparently reach for other things, such as Rudolf/Kyrie/Battler, yet won't consider Shkanon? Bear in mind that Rudolf and Kyrie both get their asses FT'd in both Legend and Turn. They barely have enough screentime in those stories to even be considered as suspects taking only the stories themselves into account. Meanwhile you have some weird servant thing going down, and one of them each has the easy opportunity to fake his or her death in each tale.

Remember that the lack of red in real life cuts both ways. If red does not exist in Turn, neither does Kanon died in this room, meaning the most obvious answer to the entire episode is "Kanon murdered the adults, killed Jessica when he was alone with her, then disappeared and returned to kill the others one by one." Without the red to make us doubt Kanon, he immediately jumps to the top of the suspect list... and nobody is even investigating this obvious culprit who might not even exist?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 15:32   Link #32195
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Well, either way, the 1998 Witch Hunters are incompetent I guess.

One more possible explanation: they don't care about the servants. I don't remember too much specifically about the Witch Hunters, but I do remember that the whole incident was sensationalized by the media and the public. It's likely that most people thought that this was a crime with economic motivation and thus placed nearly all their suspicions on Krauss/Eva/Rudolf/Rosa's family because they KNOW that tensions were incredibly high because of the inheritance issue.

Yeah, it's a dumbass move to ignore dubious points like one person's entire imaginary existence (whether or not there was evidence to support it). But this sort of thing is not unprecedented. Drawing parallels to real life, a vast proportion of followers of unsolved sensational mysteries will draw themselves towards answers that they want to believe even when new information is released which offers a new lead.
"Eva is too suspicious and there's no way to establish her innocence, and boy this would be really interesting if she killed her whole family for money! I want to paint her as a horrible monster because it's easy and satisfying! Well, there certainly IS something suspicious about this Kanon character, but it's easier and more satisfying to explain it with Eva." This is of course an exaggeration, but if you look at these real-life unsolved murders, the media's prime suspects are usually the husband, the boyfriend, the son, even when evidence opens up other possibilities.

I would HOPE that the police would look past such biases in performing their investigations, but to fair, Eva IS really suspicious. (Goes to an island, everyone but her dies, she becomes incredibly rich.)

I'm not surprised that the media didn't focus too much on Kanon, but it is pretty ridiculous for the police to not explore that...
Now I'm not trying to defend the Witch Hunters (lol). I'm just trying to say that while the 1998 is filled with stupid people, it's not something that couldn't possibly happen.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 15:39   Link #32196
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
My problem is not that most people believe something, but that we're presented nothing to suggest any person believes a different thing. Other than "Eva totally did it!" and "What about Rudolf and Kyrie?" it seems like we barely get anything. The only person to even toss out an idea that's different is freaking Erika of all people... and she's doing it with respect to Bern's highly structured game... and it's an intentional troll.

Also, the text seems to kinda... contradict it. Ootsuki is incredibly interested in Maria's diary, and in the handwriting samples that Ange has found in it. Why should he care? Maria and her friend are "irrelevant," right? But the instant he finds out the handwriting matches the message bottle samples he's all over it. So he must think it's an interesting lead, and it must be something that jumped out at him in the first place as he's paid enough attention to the handwriting in the first place to compare it with what Ange shows him. That suggests that, even if that meeting never actually happened, if Ootsuki had seen information to that effect, he would've investigated it. Had he investigated it, the identity of Maria's Beatrice would suddenly become intensely relevant... and if Beatrice appeared in the message bottle stories, suddenly that starts looking more and more an important detail, and somebody ought to be trying to figure out the identity and motives of that person.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 17:44   Link #32197
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Well, either way, the 1998 Witch Hunters are incompetent I guess.

One more possible explanation: they don't care about the servants. I don't remember too much specifically about the Witch Hunters, but I do remember that the whole incident was sensationalized by the media and the public. It's likely that most people thought that this was a crime with economic motivation and thus placed nearly all their suspicions on Krauss/Eva/Rudolf/Rosa's family because they KNOW that tensions were incredibly high because of the inheritance issue.

Yeah, it's a dumbass move to ignore dubious points like one person's entire imaginary existence (whether or not there was evidence to support it). But this sort of thing is not unprecedented. Drawing parallels to real life, a vast proportion of followers of unsolved sensational mysteries will draw themselves towards answers that they want to believe even when new information is released which offers a new lead.
"Eva is too suspicious and there's no way to establish her innocence, and boy this would be really interesting if she killed her whole family for money! I want to paint her as a horrible monster because it's easy and satisfying! Well, there certainly IS something suspicious about this Kanon character, but it's easier and more satisfying to explain it with Eva." This is of course an exaggeration, but if you look at these real-life unsolved murders, the media's prime suspects are usually the husband, the boyfriend, the son, even when evidence opens up other possibilities.

I would HOPE that the police would look past such biases in performing their investigations, but to fair, Eva IS really suspicious. (Goes to an island, everyone but her dies, she becomes incredibly rich.)

I'm not surprised that the media didn't focus too much on Kanon, but it is pretty ridiculous for the police to not explore that...
Now I'm not trying to defend the Witch Hunters (lol). I'm just trying to say that while the 1998 is filled with stupid people, it's not something that couldn't possibly happen.
Of course it's possible that the solution is the police is incompetent, they don't want to get in this mess, someone didn't want people to question too deeply how the whole island could blow up like that, as if Kinzo's been allowed to keep... I don't know, enough explosive to blast half of it... which I sort of have the feeling must be illegal in Japan also...

Only it has a very strong feeling of plot contrivance.

Even if in real world the police can do the dumbest things in a story, expecially in a mystery, if the ability of the police isn't questioned, you are supposed to expect they could do at least the basics, which are to suspect everyone and check everything that might seem relevant.

They checked the message bottle ERGO they found it relevant otherwise they would have tossed it away.
Why to stop everything at Eva? Just because she survived?
What if she's in fact a survivor and someone else was behind it and now she's covering everything for 'insert different reason according to different chosen culprit'?

Plus, even if the Witch Hunters weren't interested in Shannon or Kanon as culprit what about Shannon was a Beatrice supporter? With Maria, with the other servants... Surely they asked around to the other servants and they likely answered they'd been told how to avoid getting curse by Beatrice by Shannon, that she was sort of hooked up on that story.

This should have gained her some interest from them, that would have lead them to discover more about her.

Yet no one suspect Shannon or Kanon. Or Genji who evidently can use Kinzo's power even without Kinzo's permission.
It's weird. Even pinning a mad servant as culprit should have looked interesting from a witch hunter point of view. After all they later offered theories as 'Kanon/Shannon doesn't exist' or 'Shannon was after George only for the money'.

If Rudolf and Kyrie could be the culprits and something went wrong why not to think that Shannon could be the culprit, planning to kill everyone minus George and then have him inherit and marry her?

Then something went wrong and George died and Eva killed her and now she's keeping silent to protect George's honour?

It doesn't even require to deny Shannon's feelings. She loved George but she wanted the money... or even she wanted the relatives that were against their union out of the picture.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 23:13   Link #32198
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Of course it's possible that the solution is the police is incompetent, they don't want to get in this mess, someone didn't want people to question too deeply how the whole island could blow up like that, as if Kinzo's been allowed to keep... I don't know, enough explosive to blast half of it... which I sort of have the feeling must be illegal in Japan also...

Only it has a very strong feeling of plot contrivance.

Even if in real world the police can do the dumbest things in a story, expecially in a mystery, if the ability of the police isn't questioned, you are supposed to expect they could do at least the basics, which are to suspect everyone and check everything that might seem relevant.

They checked the message bottle ERGO they found it relevant otherwise they would have tossed it away.
Why to stop everything at Eva? Just because she survived?
What if she's in fact a survivor and someone else was behind it and now she's covering everything for 'insert different reason according to different chosen culprit'?

Plus, even if the Witch Hunters weren't interested in Shannon or Kanon as culprit what about Shannon was a Beatrice supporter? With Maria, with the other servants... Surely they asked around to the other servants and they likely answered they'd been told how to avoid getting curse by Beatrice by Shannon, that she was sort of hooked up on that story.

This should have gained her some interest from them, that would have lead them to discover more about her.

Yet no one suspect Shannon or Kanon. Or Genji who evidently can use Kinzo's power even without Kinzo's permission.
It's weird. Even pinning a mad servant as culprit should have looked interesting from a witch hunter point of view. After all they later offered theories as 'Kanon/Shannon doesn't exist' or 'Shannon was after George only for the money'.

If Rudolf and Kyrie could be the culprits and something went wrong why not to think that Shannon could be the culprit, planning to kill everyone minus George and then have him inherit and marry her?

Then something went wrong and George died and Eva killed her and now she's keeping silent to protect George's honour?

It doesn't even require to deny Shannon's feelings. She loved George but she wanted the money... or even she wanted the relatives that were against their union out of the picture.
We don't know that those things didn't happen or that people didn't think those possibilities. After all, people knew in 1998 that an explosion wiped out the mansion. Ryukishi just has the characters speak vaguely about it in EP4 as to not give away a critical answer. (If I remember correctly, they do refer to it as an Explosion Accident towards the end of the series.)

The thing with Kanon/Shannon is even MORE important to the mystery so obviously Ryukishi won't have any direct 1998 hints about that. Granted, it would be nice if we got some information in 1998 about the matter in, say, EP8, but just because none of the specific investigative measures are revealed in EP4 doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Even without thinking about the writing itself, it's not hard to see why specific theories aren't focused on in Ange's scenes. To someone who doesn't know the answer, a lot of weird things are related to the Rokkenjima Incident. Yasu is pretending to be multiple people (which 1998 may or may not know). Rosa abuses her daughter and Maria clearly has some mental problems. Battler is estranged from his family, Rudolf is involved in shady business, and Kyrie comes from the yazuka-esque Sumadera family. Krauss covered up his father's death (which 1998 may or may not know) and is a failure of an investor. Eva is the only survivor so that places her under the most suspicion. All of them needed money. So yes, the thing with multiple personalities is weird and is a red flag, but it's not the ONLY concerning aspect of this case.

I agree that it's dubious as a whole that we're not given any information of 1998's investigation of the crime, even at the end of the series, but I think that's a bit different from saying that it doesn't exist at all.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-01, 08:02   Link #32199
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
We don't know that those things didn't happen or that people didn't think those possibilities. After all, people knew in 1998 that an explosion wiped out the mansion. Ryukishi just has the characters speak vaguely about it in EP4 as to not give away a critical answer. (If I remember correctly, they do refer to it as an Explosion Accident towards the end of the series.)
The point is it doesn't make sense.

All those stuffs aren't minor stuffs that detectives could have reasonably overlooked.
A person that doesn't exist, a writing that match a confirmed suspicious writing, the police should have checked on them.
The witch hunters too.

Yet they aren't mentioned at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Granted, it would be nice if we got some information in 1998 about the matter in, say, EP8, but just because none of the specific investigative measures are revealed in EP4 doesn't mean that they don't exist.
You're using a devil's proof in a story that ranted a lot about how hints must be showed.

In addition the story generates nonsense about how investigations were done.

We're told that the message was judged important enough to check if Eva wrote it as well as Maria. She didn't and this info became of public knowledge.
However isn't public knowledge Shannon wrote it.
Either the police stopped investigations or decided to keep this secret.
In both cases the solution is illogic.
There's no reason for the police to cover up for Shannon, who's apparently dead and has no living relatives, especially when the whole thing will be declared an incident later on. There's no reason to dismiss the message entirely just because Eva didn't write it.

Same goes for the Witch Hunters. If Ootsuki could recognize with just a glance that the writing more or less matched and was interested in the thing why this so called Witch Hunter expert didn't investigate on it previously?

It generates an absurd situation where something that's judged important is deliberately discharged. It's a plot contrivance.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-01, 12:24   Link #32200
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Don't forget that a lot was covered up because of the whole "a big bunch of explosives was unknowingly sold to a private person and then detonated". Imagine this would become public knowledge... So then what did the government do? Put a blanket over it and use the typical "it was a gas explosion accident"-excuse of course!
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.