2011-11-21, 02:49 | Link #3281 | |
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
You can't even say they're separate entities like in Multiple Personality Disorder; Yasu is merely a dedicated actress.
__________________
|
|
2011-11-21, 03:16 | Link #3282 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-11-21, 10:06 | Link #3284 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
All the adults aknowledged Kinzôs presence at the 1986 family conference in EP4. This is what I'm trying to get across all along...this is not about wether they are actually dead, they were never alive to begin with! The question is, how can something die and then later make its form reappear again. Did Kanon and Shannon make a proven reappearance after their death in any Episode? In EP2 Kanon is dead, for example. Then somebody who everybody claims looked like Kanon "but wasn't really him" appeared at the door. This is a mystery isn't it? Resorting to "The Red Text lied because they were never really dead" is an instant defeat, because you basically admit that there is some unexplainable/magical element that makes them special. Think around a little how the Red can be true...it's not that hard and it doesn't make the Red text a lie...it merely makes the user a lot more playful in his choice of words. |
|
2011-11-21, 11:09 | Link #3285 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
They acknowledged the presence of a store house full of gold
Having to rationalize the Shannon/Kanon is/are dead thing though is a whole different level. It basically (at the time) left us with personality death or a name trick and it still felt like cheating for some reason. While the Kinzo one didn't really feel like it though. Well thats my opinion anyways. |
2011-11-21, 12:41 | Link #3286 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Spoiler for Arc 7 spoiler...:
Shannon and Kanon are "roles", fake servant names that constantly are referring to themselves as furniture. To the point I think now I feel like you really have to be ridiculously stubborn and of bad faith to consider them faking death in red to nullify the worth of any given red. Yet I was one of the person most offended by the idea when it began to be obvious... |
2011-11-21, 14:53 | Link #3287 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Personally, it's not really the "Shannon or Kanon is just a role" sort of death that gets me - it's that, even when both are considered dead, their body is allowed to get up and STILL DO STUFF.
Who is this person that's neither Shannon or Kanon? The narrative gives us NO reason to suspect Shannon is anybody but who she claims to be (as, unlike Kanon, everyone has known her since she was six), and EP5 makes a big deal that the culprit has to be somebody that we already know. |
2011-11-21, 15:11 | Link #3288 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
I guess you'll have to blame that arc 1 has very old translation patch compared to later arcs. But George says to Shannon something that should basically come out as ...
"So far, you have been living inside this shell known as Shannon" In arc 1. That's enough to guess that Shannon is not who she claims to be, I think. Also, even tho I constantly use the word "role", I still think we should see Shannon and Kanon as "dolls" in "Yasu"s mind (not that it really changes much). |
2011-11-21, 15:33 | Link #3289 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
Thats pretty circumstantial because Shannon isn't even her name and he could very well mean something like "You are too stuck up on being a servant and should expand your horizon out of this island" Sure, with hindsight it definitely can be seen as a nod to Yasu or something.
|
2011-11-21, 16:32 | Link #3290 | |||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
This is a form of weasel-wording the red that's technically valid since it plays off of Battler's presuppositions without actually redefining any words. Quote:
Quote:
This is the problem. Quote:
Battler killed everyone! Ahahahaha.wav Oh fooled you, Ange. When I said that Red, "Killed" actually meant "Loved." DERP. Quote:
__________________
|
|||||
2011-11-21, 20:06 | Link #3291 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
The term 'dead' can mean many things. Like say... Dead Language? Are you telling me there MUST be a 'Latin' corpse floating out around there?
I'm sure people have argued to this to you before, but if I make something that is clearly not human dead, there doesn't have to be a corpse. And if I trick you into believing that that thing which acts human but isn't, you can't say that the words were lies. You can call out that you've been had by a dirty trick though. |
2011-11-21, 20:38 | Link #3292 | |||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
(and there kind of are corpses for dead languages; ever heard of the Rosetta Stone? ^_~) Quote:
The red truth is simply the truth. The deaths of Shannon and Kanon do not fit that red, because no only is it not simple, or true, or simply the truth, but it is actively, deliberately designed to make Battler and the reader believe something else besides what is actually true. Quote:
The word is being given a special rule that is not intuitive, does not apply to anything else in the series, and is not congruent with anything to do with any of the word's definitions in the common public consciousness. It would be like saying Yasu saved everyone when 'saved' means 'murdered' because lolgoldenland. There's absolutely no good reason for Ryukishi to have done this other than to protect his twist, but it's not a good twist because not only is it obvious since way earlier than he revealed it, but his attempts to protect the twist actively damaged the rest of his narrative. He undermined the integrity of his novel by making Beatrice a dishonorable cheater who doesn't respect her own rules that she created.
__________________
|
|||
2011-11-21, 21:24 | Link #3293 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
|
The point "dead languages" is an intriguing argument to me. Kylon99 is right in that "dead" is proven to have multiple meanings in the real world, but AuraTwilight is correct in saying that Ryukishi's usage of the word "dead" is unfair in the novel, if for no other reason that we have no way of reasoning that an alternate interpretation is possible in the case of Kanon and Shannon.
__________________
|
2011-11-21, 22:22 | Link #3294 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
Quote:
But I called mechanic and he got it working again. (Note it doesn't have to be 'alive' after it died...) 8) This IS a dirty trick though, if I made you think my wife died or something. 8) Quote:
Plus also they had memories of prior games so that was a huge red flag. But I agree with you here, the lie is definitely a lie. But I'm classifying it as in, a lie by telling you the truth without you really having the proper understanding. Quote:
At the beginning of its first usage it was like this, Beatrice: When I speak the truth, I will use red. Everything I speak in red is the truth. Where we get simply is from Lambda when she was slamming out red truths about the dining hall. The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!! And also from Cornelia or Guardrail--I mean Gertrude Know that the red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence or proof So technically idea of red being the 'simple' truth doesn't come from Beatrice herself. She merely says that when it's red, she is 'speaking the truth.' One set of reds declare that the red is a way of guaranteeing what happened without the need for evidence or proof. Whereas the other one is what Beatrice declares to be true. I know we've been group all the reds as 100% truthful, no matter whom spoke them. And I don't think at this point we need to disregard reds at all. (Since I believe the red is really an extension of the R-Prime authors.) So, I don't think this proves anything at all, but it is indeed interesting to how Beatrice frames the red compared to LD. I think Beatrice still had a clear intention to deceive, however. Quote:
And like I said, she said the truth, but she failed to context it so we ended up being deceived. I remember we got warnings where Ryukishi said "women cannot say what they want sometimes and need to resort to doing things to get you to do it." Rather than 'women,' I get the feeling now he means 'woman' or 'Yasu' specifically. EDIT: Quote:
|
|||||
2011-11-21, 22:24 | Link #3295 | |||||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Saying Natsuhi is dead! Hideyoshi is dead! Rosa is dead! Maria is dead! Shannon is dead! One after another like that doesn't make me think in any way that Shannon is somehow special. I don't know how anyone could without using banana logic. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Except she wasn't. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No matter how I slice it, this situation is a failure of the Red.
__________________
|
|||||||
2011-11-21, 22:26 | Link #3296 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
Quote:
Because if you start taking the white text about Shannon and Kanon's background... well, let's just say people started thinking they were the same as of EP2 (but they were panned back then.) |
|
2011-11-21, 22:45 | Link #3297 | ||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
And that didn't turn out to be the case either, so how are these reds not completely arbitrary and meaningless? Nothing is disappearing, dying, being removed, or lost. At best they're going to sleep or leaving the proverbial room. No actual, meaningful 'dying' is occurring, so this is still a blatant lie in the red.
__________________
|
||
2011-11-21, 23:14 | Link #3298 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
|
Quote:
And now you're just going over and over again about a tiny small context of the use of the word 'dead.' Well, if you just want sound like a broken record, go ahead. But here's a bone for you: "My pa is dead, my ma is dead. Even Betsy is dead!" There's no logical reason to differentiate the statements. There's no logical reason NOT to either. Especially when you know the other person is trying to hide a murder mystery trick. Quote:
No, it's not a blatant lie in red, no matter what you say, no matter how pendantic you are or how many times you repeat it. You ignored my car analogy didn't you? And like you just implied and others have said, over and over and over again, that the red can be used to declare those people who are dead from even just a game! "I died last night while fighting a Greater Dragon in Skyrim." "You liar! You're not dead!" "..." Honestly, try to understand that people are agreeing with you sometimes. Of course these statements all misled you. But none of them were lies. |
||
2011-11-21, 23:24 | Link #3299 | ||||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
By the way you can stop being a total dick any time now. I'm being pretty civil with you, can't you meet me halfway? Quote:
Quote:
Such was the reasoning back then. Again, Umineko does nothing to curb against this, and given his reactions to the Japanese fanbase, Ryukishi seems to be aware it was going on. Either way, he's using the red to deliberately mislead people from the truth he intended. Because he wants to have his M Night Shyamalan twist. Quote:
Quote:
That right there fucks over your entire analogy. There's no equivalent point of information that gives a separate quantifier to Shannon and Kanon that sets them apart from every other character on the island. Now, if the red was I died last night in a fight and you didn't give any more information, your analogy would be more fitting, and it would be a lie by omission because it was a deliberate misholding of information to make your listener accept a false idea.
__________________
|
||||||
2011-11-21, 23:25 | Link #3300 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
It's not like a silly theory about small bombs or whatnot. ... Actually I'd sorta like to imagine what would people's reactions be if Battler's small bomb theory turned out to be true... |
|
|
|