(L) Chevalier D'Eon

[Doria]

Mr. Prophet is correct on this one. It has loooong been a pet peeve of mine that D'Eon is put forth as his proper name. (Though I cede the counterpoint that D'Artagnan does, indeed, go by his title as though the preposition were part of the name.) More commonly, though, when the title is used as the name--in literature, at least--it seems that the preposition is dropped (reference, e.g., any Shakespeare play, where you will have Gloucester, etc.).

What's worse is that we get the Count de Saint-Germain, for example, who is correctly called Saint-Germain at various points, as well as Comte de Saint-Germain. He is not, however, burdened with an extraneous preposition for the entire series... grrrrr! Hahaha, it's late and these are the things that preoccupy me at this time of night...

Further, you're really scraping the bottom of the slaughter of history barrel if you have to resort to picking at the sword lengths and such. For one thing, inaccurate as I'm certain it is, the sword fighting remains some of the more realistic depicted in *anime*. Remember, you're not dealing with something that proposes to be a documentary. Seriously, I don't know how far you've watched in the series, but by the time you get to the end, you really may as well just admit this is a loose historical fiction. I mean, so far as I can tell, the Queen of England is INCORRECTLY named!

As such, fansubbers likely decided to pass on the historical accuracy, choosing to stay true to the feel of the *fictional* work, where it is quite abundantly clear that the concept of knighthood is centrally important to the work. Plus, though "gentilhomme" may be more accurate (I honestly don't know), fansubbers are usually--in this case--working for an English-language audience. It really doesn't help the viewers, in my opinion, to translate from one language viewers don't know straight into another they don't know. While I am reasonably fluent in French, I would not assume everyone watching a series is.

And honestly, translating "gentilhomme" for "knight" sounds terrible in English. Sorry...

Edit: oopsy -- I am so tired I didn't even realize Mr. Prophet had addressed the latter point already... I should also point out that most self-respecting fansub groups would likely have translators and checkers who are either fluent in both French and Japanese, or are fluent in Japanese and are French.

Hey, but man, I am *dying* to see episode XXIII!!!!

[Guu_chan]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

You are assuming too much.

It was neither implied, nor taken as his first name by anyone here to my knowledge. I can speak for myself that I've never took "D'Eon" to be his name.

Secondly, D'Eon is not his surname, it's his title. He is Charles de Beaumont, Chevalier D'Eon. His title is chevalier, and he is a chevalier of Eon.

Finally, there is nothing particularily special about people calling him "D'Eon". For example, in none of Alexandre Dumas-pere's book do we learn that D'Artagnan's real name was Charles de Batz-Castelmore, and D'Artagnan was his title (he was a Comte D'Artagnan). Yet everyone calls him by his title, so I see nothing special about the same naming convention for D'Eon.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that "d'Eon" is his first name in the anime. When he's in his "female form", he's "Lia de Baumont" ; and when he's in his normal form, he's "d'Eon de Baumont" -- he's called that by the characters who want to say his full name (like Teillagory when he first appears).
Also, those who called Lia by her first name call his brother "d'Eon", even those who are close to him, like his childhood friend Anna. It's true that most of his male friends would call him by his title (like d'Artagnan), but surely not Anna.

It is also true that there is a distiction between his title "d'Eon" and his surname "de Baumont", however, I'm sure the Japanese assumed "d'Eon" is part of his long stream of first names.

Originally Posted by MrProphet

No, that is incorrect.

The correct title is "chevalier". "Gentleman" is a person belonging to the "gentry". A "chevalier" is a title of knighthood. It translates literally into English as a "knight" and the origin of the title is the same as for the mediaeval knights.

No, I meant the overuse of the term "knight" in the anime (from the Japanese "kishi") ; the term "chevalier" was indeed either a grade of nobility, or a personal title, however in the anime it seems to be used in the sense of "nobleman in service of their king"... everyone is a "knight" in the anime, regardless of their actual title.
In the 18th century, the idealised form of "knighthood" was considered obsolete (since the time of the Don Quixote book). In France, a nobleman -- someone generally "well-born" -- was called "gentilhomme"... I don't know if it should be translated in English by "gentleman", but "knight" isn't good IMO.

[Guu_chan]

Originally Posted by Doria

Further, you're really scraping the bottom of the slaughter of history barrel if you have to resort to picking at the sword lengths and such. For one thing, inaccurate as I'm certain it is, the sword fighting remains some of the more realistic depicted in *anime*. Remember, you're not dealing with something that proposes to be a documentary. Seriously, I don't know how far you've watched in the series, but by the time you get to the end, you really may as well just admit this is a loose historical fiction. I mean, so far as I can tell, the Queen of England is INCORRECTLY named!

Well, I did like the sword fighting, actually. Generally, I liked this anime because it deals with a period of history I like (also I'm French and I love fencing) ; and even though it's a "loose historical fiction", I was quite impressed by the research they did and the effort on visual details...
But what is funny is the contrast between the apparent seriousness and the nutty story with "zombie" and "magic" scenes.
Actually, the only thing that disappointed me was the lack of subtlety of the "magic" in the anime ; these "glowing" words were a little over the top...

Anyway, it's precisely because I like this anime that I looked for and pointed out all these details. ^_^

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by Guu_chan

Also, those who called Lia by her first name call his brother "d'Eon", even those who are close to him, like his childhood friend Anna. It's true that most of his male friends would call him by his title (like d'Artagnan), but surely not Anna.

Once again, I send you to Dumas-pere. D'Artagnan is called by his title by everyone. Including his lovers.

It is also true that there is a distiction between his title "d'Eon" and his surname "de Baumont", however, I'm sure the Japanese assumed "d'Eon" is part of his long stream of first names.

I am not.

I am sure Ubukata knows what he is doing. There is no suggestion anywhere that Ubukata or Furuhashi don't know what his name is. They researched his life, after all.

No, I meant the overuse of the term "knight" in the anime (from the Japanese "kishi") ; the term "chevalier" was indeed either a grade of nobility, or a personal title, however in the anime it seems to be used in the sense of "nobleman in service of their king"... everyone is a "knight" in the anime, regardless of their actual title.

Read the link above.

In France, a nobleman -- someone generally "well-born" -- was called "gentilhomme"... I don't know if it should be translated in English by "gentleman", but "knight" isn't good IMO.

Once again, you are wrong.

A gentleman is a person belonging to the class of gentry. D'Eon is both a gentleman by birth and a chevalier (knight) by service. These are two different things.

When the actors say "kishi" in Japanese, they mean "chevalier", not "gentleman".

[duckroll]

Wao is probably going to go nuts again. In ep23 there's a director, an assistant director, an animation director and seven assistant animation directors. Of course the big highlight is that this episode is another rare episode with a storyboard by Kazuhiro Furuhashi and even rarer - a script by Tow Ubukata.

As expected the episode is SUPERB, but I'll leave it to the experts here to dissect it. I don't really take part in discussions here much, mostly a silent observer, but I think most people will be very happy with the way the show is concluding.

Tow's writing is superb and ep23 is a very nice reminding that the tight plotting and excellent pacing of the first episode was no coincidence. He can pack a ton of solid content in a single episode, which is probably why he leaves all the normal writing to other script writers. If he were to write the entire series, it would probably last 10 episodes.

Can't wait for the finale next week. ^_^

[Cyz]

I've seen the first dub episode. So D'Eon changes from another persona which is her sister? Does that only happen when D'Eon is in danger or something?

[Guu_chan]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

When the actors say "kishi" in Japanese, they mean "chevalier", not "gentleman".

Err, my previous message must not be very clear, but what I meant is : in the anime, everyone is referred to as "kishi/knight" (d'Eon, Teillagory, Durand, Voronzoff, etc), regardless of their actual title ; yet I doubt everyone has a "chevalier" title. So by "kishi" they probably meant "nobleman", not "chevalier".

[MrProphet]

Ah... it seems just links won't do, so here's a direct quote.

Chevalier was also a title attached to members of the orders of knighthood: these were, of course, purely ad personam. Note, however, that by an edict of 1750, three consecutive generations of officers who were recipients of the order of Saint-Louis and who met certain requirements on duration of service endowed the issue of the 3d member with hereditary nobility (but not knighthood; see more details)

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/chevalier.htm

chevalier = knight = kishi

There is no other way around it.

[lommm]

Originally Posted by Cyz

I've seen the first dub episode. So D'Eon changes from another persona which is her sister? Does that only happen when D'Eon is in danger or something?

well, it starts to change later in the series. but that is a good assumption for now. D'Eon becomes posessed by the spirit of his dead sister, Lia. She was skilled in magic, something this series calls poetry and once or twice alchemy.


l33t released 22. you can all watch recit XXIII on youtube now.

Spoiler:

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=chevalier+23

NOW, on to the discussion at hand.

Guu_chan, thanks for all that information. it was good research. i agree with MrProphet and Doria. the anime is not taking d'eon to be his first name. Louis calls him charles d'eon de beaumont once (yeah, only once, but still). speaking as someone who has now read three academic histories/biographies of Le Chevalier D'Eon, I can tell you that most people outside of Tonnerre actually refered to him as D'Eon or Monsieur D'Eon. When they used the title of Chevalier, it was Le Chevalier D'Eon or Monsieur Le Chevalier D'Eon. Later in his life, after the anime takes place, starting when he was 49 years old, he was called Mademoiselle La Chevaliere D'Eon. His female name at this time was given as Charlotte-Genevieve-Louise-Auguste-Marie d'Eon. But he went by D'Eon and objected to being called by the female title. He would use the title La Chevaliere only when in the presence of member of or supporters of Louis XVI's court (mostly because XVI was the one who decreed that D'Eon was a woman and ordered him to wear female clothes and stop wearing his dragoon uniform). Members of the dragoons and the military continued to salute him, even when he was wearing a dress in public. And they would mostly refer to him as Le Chevalier D'Eon or Capitain D'Eon. Now... that's all historical and has little or no bearing on the anime.

The anime is a work of fiction using historical elements and characters to tell a story.

Your complaints are slightly valid, but not really. It does have magic and zombies. And the magic is actually somewhat historically anachronistic too. It's dipping deeply into the sacred hermetic order of the golden dawn. a lot of the alchemy is more influenced by Cagliostro's alchemy and his masonic order in germany that allowed women to join (Casanova joined this order). but in the anime he is portrayed as knowing little to no magic. should i complain? no. Ubukata-sensei has obviously done his research. He is extremely well-read. the more i research on subjects closely or loosely related to the events of the anime, the more i find that even the smallest elements of the show are not placed in the series 'just because ubukata felt like it' but instead because he knows his stuff and puts all of the elemnts in the series for a reason. (i only wish Ben Franklin would show up as he was friends with D'Eon and a member Francis Dashwood's Hellfire Club).

long story short, you had some good research in your post that i was happy to read, but you are making some assumptions about a work of fiction that you need not make. still, i appreciate the fact that you stirred up this level of discussion! thanks for waking up the thread!! lol


@MrProphet: i understand the kishi thing. but what about voronzoff? just curious since guu-chan uses him as an example also...


now i'm going to go watch 22-23 as i haven't done either yet. i'm sure i'll be back here soon with my head ready to explode!!!

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by duckroll

Wao is probably going to go nuts again. In ep23 there's a director, an assistant director, an animation director and seven assistant animation directors. Of course the big highlight is that this episode is another rare episode with a storyboard by Kazuhiro Furuhashi and even rarer - a script by Tow Ubukata.

Which I didn't really understand. It wasn't really an episode that required so much animator input. As you've mentioned, it was splendid in its plot and characterization, but animation I wouldn't call amazing... just solid.

Still, it was impressive in its elegant setting of all the last pieces on the chessboard. D'Eon, Robin, Louis, Maximilien and even Lia are finally positioned for one last move.

@MrProphet: i understand the kishi thing. but what about voronzoff? just curious since guu-chan uses him as an example also...

XVIII century Russia had numerous Orders of Chivalry. A member of such an order would be called in Russian a "kavaler". The word "kavaler" is a corruption of the French "chevalier", so I think it would be just as valid.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by glyph

Spoiler for thoughts after watching the youtube Recit 22 on youtube:

I'm kind of disappointed at how easily St. Germain went down tag teamed by Queen Marie and Max (and later ?finished off? by Lorenza), considering that he was portrayed as the head of the Revolutionary Brethren, but didn't really get to do much beyond spouting ominous lines and acting supercilious (much like the Emperor from Star Wars, I guess )

Spoiler for recit 23:

Spoiler for major major spoilers!:

Oh no, Anna does get sephiroth'd by Louis!

Perhaps I spoke too soon about the Comte de Saint Germain. Wow, that guy really dies harder than Rasputin. Getting the living daylights crushed out of him by the Queen and Max, then withered into a dessicated corpse by Lorenza, and having a entire sepulchre collapse on top of him, and _still_ he has fight left in him. Odds are, he takes Max down with him in the finale.

They explained why Robespierre decided to steal the Psalms, and why everything revolves around Lia, but I didn't quite catch the explanation. Is it that Lia is the only one who read the prophecies in full (until this Recit), and was so horrified by it she took the verses into herself to keep them secret even from Robespierre (until he communed with her spirit during his "death experience")? Who made the artifact in the first place anyhow? The Comte de Saint Germain?

Wow, it seems more likely now that Robin may decide to become a disciple/avatar of Robespierre.

By the end of the episode, Lia is finally face to face with the guy she's been practising the "in the name of true fealty, I lay my vengeance upon thee" line for throughout the series.

Looks they've managed to tie up the remaining loose ends and are heading for the big finale full steam the next recit.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by glyph

Spoiler for thoughts after watching the youtube Recit 22 on youtube:

I'm kind of disappointed at how easily St. Germain went down tag teamed by Queen Marie and Max (and later ?finished off? by Lorenza), considering that he was portrayed as the head of the Revolutionary Brethren, but didn't really get to do much beyond spouting ominous lines and acting supercilious (much like the Emperor from Star Wars, I guess )

oops, doubleposted.

Spoiler for recit 23:

Oh no, Anna does get sephiroth'd by Louis!

Perhaps I spoke too soon about the Comte de Saint Germain. Wow, that guy really dies harder than Rasputin. Getting the living daylights crushed out of him by the Queen and Max, then withered into a dessicated corpse by Lorenza, and having a entire sepulchre collapse on top of him, and _still_ he has fight left in him. Odds are, he takes Max down with him in the finale.

They explained why Robespierre decided to steal the Psalms, and why everything revolves around Lia, but I didn't quite catch the explanation. Is it that Lia is the only one who read the prophecies in full (until this Recit), and was so horrified by it she took the verses into herself to keep them secret even from Robespierre (until he communed with her spirit during his "death experience")? Who made the artifact in the first place anyhow? The Comte de Saint Germain?

Wow, it seems more likely now that Robin may decide to become a disciple/avatar of Robespierre.

By the end of the episode, Lia is finally face to face with the guy she's been practising the "in the name of true fealty, I lay my vengeance upon thee" line for throughout the series.

Looks they've managed to tie up the remaining loose ends and are heading for the big finale full steam the next recit.

[duckroll]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

Which I didn't really understand. It wasn't really an episode that required so much animator input. As you've mentioned, it was splendid in its plot and characterization, but animation I wouldn't call amazing... just solid.

I think there's one possibility for this. It's entirely possible that towards the last few eps, what the director is doing is assigning specific "scenes" to each animation director to get the episodes moved along at a faster rate without compromising the animation via outsourcing. Basically I think the past few eps have been each had several mini-episodes within, each supervised by a different animation director. Would that make more sense?

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by duckroll

I think there's one possibility for this. It's entirely possible that towards the last few eps, what the director is doing is assigning specific "scenes" to each animation director to get the episodes moved along at a faster rate without compromising the animation via outsourcing. Basically I think the past few eps have been each had several mini-episodes within, each supervised by a different animation director. Would that make more sense?

It would.

Episode 23 did look a lot more homogeneous than, say, episode 21 (with its crazy duel and weird faces). The same thing (very clean, very confident sakuga) I've noticed in episode 22.

I hope the last episode does continue in the same vein. It would be really nice of them to finish this series as well as they've started it. 8)

[Doria]

Yes, and on the Vonozoff question, it is certainly well within imagination that his noble family that he is so proud of would have been an easy springboard for an estate (or whatever the Russian equivalent term is) of his own. I'd have imagined that if we take his romance with the Empress seriously, he was almost certainly titled in some way.

[lommm]

good to know about the russian chevalier equivalent...


i have been reading one of my D'Eon books. it is written as an academic study but written well for mass consumtion. it's some guy from Columbia who wrote it. it's extremely well researched.

anyway, the most likely story of what really happened to D'Eon and why he was ordered to dress as a woman is amazing...ly sad and hilarious all at once. apparently after he agreed to claim he was a woman (age 49) and wear his dress full time, he still peed standing up. he was seen drunk in public on several occasions hiking up his dress to pee on the side of a wall. and he onften had stubble and forgot to shave. and for some time, he continued to teach fencing.

just ridiculous. Louis XVI was such an imp that when George III proclaimed that D'Eon was a woman in order to settle a bet between two lords, XVI decided that he too must proclaim D'Eon's womanhood. wow! and Marie Antoinette had her dressmaker make all his dresses for him, so he was at first dressed like the Queen. but he quckly began wearing crappy dresses because he ran around outside so much that the nic ones got too dirty.

but i must say, XV's cousin, Prince of Conte, also believed D'Eon to be a woman. he was the one who decided that D'Eon should wear a dress and be Empress Elizabeth's French tutor. D'Eon claims he refused, but Conte threatened him and then offered the Chevalier title or perhaps some high positions of state (minister plenipotentary to England?) to D'Eon in return for his frocking....





edit: okay, now i got to a section that proclaims thus -> scholars now believe D'Eon made the entire Russia story up. he needed to argue that women could still serve in political life, so he made up that story about his trip to Russia, saying that Louis XV knew he was a woman and sent him anyway... even though he was a man... god what a complicated life story this guy had!! lol

[Doria]

Although you are now the far more advanced Eon specialist, I do recall researching for the Russia arc, and the best consensus I could figure was that he was sent to Russia for whatever purpose, but likely embellished the whole saving the Empress' life bit (uh, the real-life guy, I mean).

Aside from the factual question of titles during that time period and for the respective countries, there are a few kind of strange titles that are used in this series. As I don't really understand Japanese, though, I'm not certain whether they're strange because of the contexts they're used in or because of the words themselves. In at least the case of Dashwood, I got the impression it was the latter. In other cases, it's seemed to be a combination.

Edit: and by the way, I was so desperate to know what would happen, I gave in and watched it at the spoilered place... *sigh* It's sad to be so pathetic.

[aardvark]

I've been pretty behind on watching Chevalier (ok, really behind) but I managed to pick up the first US DVD today and I have to say ADV did a great job in it.

They pretty much replicated the R2 DVD, really awesome leather bound book looking case with lots of gold embossed on it as well as a 20 page booklet with artworks, interviews, storyboard comparison, even a portion of the script is included. Obviously we won't get everything the R2 DVDs have since it's 9 vs. 6 but still the effort is appreciated as I love when companies actually put care into the shows they release, unlike others (coughbandaicough)

And to my surprise they didnt use their awful ED scroll that almost all of their shows have and actually made it look *good* and presentable.

[wao]

Hey, did you guys read the interview with the R1 dub's sound director Steven Foster on ANN here?

I can't say anything about how good his work as an ADR director is in general because I've never watched the dubs of the shows he's worked on; but I was surprised that they actually compared their translations with fansubs.

Now I really just want to know who's the awesome producer who decided to license this AND release it before it had even finished its run in Japan. And a show like this, too.

[MrProphet]

Is he the guy who "creatively interpreted" Ghost Stories for ADV?

DO NOT WANT!

Have you gone back and looked into the original history of it?

SF: Yes, because the translator gave these amazing notes. Janice [Williams], our title's media coordinator, is really like a historical consultant and she spent days at the library researching all this, and she gave us dossiers on who these people were, here's what the real story was. Like Louis XV and the Duke of Orléans, even things like the Dauphin Auguste who's the heir to the throne, you know he's only eight in the show, and she gave us this dossier like “FYI he was a really shitty king later”. You know, things like that. And that's kind of fun. Did you know about the London Stock Exchange thing?

Yes! If only Louis-Auguste were a better King, he wouldn't waste any money on crazy expeditions to fight the British in America. The people of France would be fed and United States would still belong to the English. 8)

Hurrah for ignorance!