Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

It was an okay episode I guess. As mentioned there are some numerous cracks in the story again and we see a mustache twirling villian again.

Two points:

1. I don't think that he is. He's a colorful interrogator. Like I argued to Reckoner, this is not way beyond what we've seen in the real world. So I don't see such a character as being out of place in this anime.

2. Are "mustache twirling villains" not allowed to exist anymore? "Mustache twirling villains" can be loads of fun.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Two points:

1. I don't think that he is. He's a colorful interrogator. Like I argued to Reckoner, this is not way beyond what we've seen in the real world. So I don't see such a character as being out of place in this anime.

2. Are "mustache twirling villains" not allowed to exist anymore? "Mustache twirling villains" can be loads of fun.

1. Actually, he's a freaking psychopath. Most political torturers that i've read about are actually surprisingly normal outside their work, so I can't help but feel it's actually turning a somewhat more thought provoking issue into a more unrealistic black one.

2. I know I said that I wouldn't mind Black and White, but i've now come to the conclusion that Black and white and serious political settings just don't mix. This is all especially difficult for someone like me who has recenrly gotten into reading about current political affairs in the Middle East. For example, i've recently read On The Road To Kandahar by Jason Burke. Oviously I don't expect it to be anywhere near as insightful but I feel GC is going the complete opposite direction. Its being anti-insightful.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

1. Actually, he's a freaking psychopath.

On what basis do you say that? Two short scenes? That show him in a work environment?

Most political torturers that i've read about are actually surprisingly normal outside their work,

We haven't seen this guy outside of a work environment.

2. I know I said that I wouldn't mind Black and White, but i've now come to the conclusion that Black and white and serious political settings just don't mix.

But "black" things happen frequently in "political settings". Again, I reference Abu Ghraib.

I hope we get some more nuanced characters on the GHQ side to balance out with what we have so far, but a couple "black" antagonists are no big deal, imo.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see any tonal issues at all.

Ok. I do. So where does that leave us?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I don't think it is.

Ok. I do. So where does that leave us?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It was specifically stated that a security check was done on Shu and Inori to see if anybody was following them. This suggests that Gai had operatives in place around the area in order to cover him, and get him to safety if necessary.

I just don't see terrorists standing in broad day light when they are on high alert for him as something at all sensible. Maybe he does have a getaway plan, but he's putting their entire operation and organization at extreme risk with such a stunt when there was absolutely no reason for it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Just because something is done in broad daylight doesn't mean there are loads of people around to see it.

It wasn't done just one, but many times. And the king's power is extremely flashy.
The chances that they would've been seen are extremely high, which shows a lack of professionalism from a terrorist group which is supposed to be professional.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The plan wasn't overly flashy given that it was quite justified based on what Gai revealed, and it worked perfectly well. I don't see any basis for calling it "flimsy knowledge". Gai has a legitimate special ability. I see no problem with it.

Trusting the fate of your organization to some new guy, even if Gai knows Shu he's new to everyone else, which hinged on him using the kaleidoscope, which only Gai really knew was there, is just again extremely unprofessional and over the top for what this show presents itself as.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Keeping Shu happy is likely a big goal of Undertaker, given his Void ability. They likely want to slowly persuade him to join them, and so they may have taken a calculated risk to put faith in him in the hopes that it would make him feel more comfortable with the idea of eventually joining them.

Keeping Shu happy or putting your organization at somewhat of an extreme risk? I don't know, it's again very unprofessional for what you'd expect are professionals. How else would they have stayed hiden as a terrorist organization this whole time if they left so many holes for people to strike them from?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This argument is grossly overstated, imo. He's a colorful interrogator. Big deal. It's not "ridiculously over the top" at all. How is it any more "over the top" than what happened in the real world in Abu Grhaib in Iraq? So it's not "distasteful" at all, imo. And it does not in any way contradict serious and heavy themes. In fact, occupying forces using morally questionable interrogation means is in itself a serious and heavy topic.

An anime that uses a futuristic, but still modern like setting where foreign powers are occupying the country (Think if places like Europe and the US occupying it) are being portrayed as absolute crooks and evil doers. Without a shade of grey in their personalities and actions, they somehow got into such a position of power to completely suppress an entire country's people and do whatever evil actions they want with what appears to be no accountability whatsoever.

If you think this type of portrayal does the setting justice, we'll just have to disagree.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The character exposition in Episode 3 was fine. We learned a lot about Shu, "Sugar", and a bit more about Inori. Shu's character is slowly rounding into shape. In this episode we see that he has some qualms with killing potential enemies, even when that's clearly the most pragmatic course of action. I suspect that such differences in moral outlook between Shu and Gai will play out more forcefully and compellingly in future episodes.

This episode we were told Sugar was his friend, we barely interacted with him, and then he basically spazzed out with bulging eyeballs at Shu at the end of the episode. I really don't feel that is good development at all.

Inori barely spoke this episode and the things she said at the end of the episode was absolutely nonsensical. "I want to be with you forever?" They barely know each other, in fact Shu doesn't know Inori at all, and yet she wants to be with him forever? What about Shu is so attractive to Inori?

And Shu didn't want to kill the person he was told was his friend at the start of this episode and this is the character exposition that was supposed to help me understand and sympathize with him? Character exposition it may be, just wasn't very interesting character exposition at all. Shu is still left rather bland.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Inori is likely literally a doll. I think that this is what was foreshadowed during the conversation in the gym.

I very much doubt that Inori is fully human. She's probably an artificial lifeform, to some degree at least. If that is the case, I see no problem with her character.

Lets just say I and others find it utterly repulsive the way she's being treated in this show. She's practically a sex doll.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She was likely impressed by Shu's decision to spare "Sugar". I think that moved her at some level (which, again, becomes even more likely if she's an artificial lifeform of some sort who's sole experience with other human beings is as a tool of a terrorist organization).

Was it so impressive of an action that Inori should want to spend her entire life with him?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He's already in a dangerous situation due to "Sugar" being at his school. That's probably at least part of the reason why he 'complied'. Having Inori's assistance in dealing with "Sugar" was no doubt helpful to him.

If Sugar was such a dangerous element to the terrorist organization, then Gai would take measures to get him with or without Shu's involvement. There's no reason Shu would have to help him unless he felt he should be involved in it, in which case he is contradicting his own actions from earlier. If Shu didn't want to help Gai then there's no reason he should have helped. He's putting himself in even more danger by deciding to help.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I totally disagree.

Ok. So where does that leave us?

[felix]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, in any case he was pissing me off. I mean I get overwrought over errors too, but the manner it was portrayed just didn't allow me to care.

But then it might just be because I care about nobody in this anime aside from Gai, so I am unable to take any of their emotions seriously. I consider myself to have a very high threshold for "emo" aka unwarranted angst I can't take seriously. One of my favorite anime involves a protagonist moping around in his own world for a good chunk of the time, and another had melodramatic crying every few episodes, after all.

My problem is not his angst per se. If he was a character that would just be all about angst and this was a show about his angst I would understand and probably enjoy it. But no, this follows the glorious "angst to hero" cookbook of fail. Let's think history for a moment. How many characters can you name that have gone though the shitty character to hero transition and were liked by fans? or how many GOOD characters that played the "angsty hero" can you think of? Think real hard, and take your time.

You done yet? Well, I can't think of even a damn one. These archtypes usually always fail even when they are in the position of a background/side-character.

But many people just don't get it! They think this is character development or that this is what character development is all about. ITS NOT! It's almost the complete opposite. Think about it, character are defined by their actions (not their psycho-evaluation), their actions in turn are defined by the combination of various attributes they have. This usually involves their beliefs, their morals, their political alignment, allegiance, friends, relationships, state of mind in the situation, and so on. Okey so that's what defines a character. Development happens when certain attributes overcome others. So for example initially we could get decisions influenced by his allegiance and political alignment and only partially his morals, but further down the line his morals and friends could overrule his allegiance and political alignment.

The point is, to have development a character has to start with the thing you are developing or at worst must not have the attribute at all. This does not mean he has the opposite; it's actually very very bad if he has the opposite! When a character has the opposite attribute to what you want to develop him into, a catalyst is required. And many people don't get how big of a deal this can be. Things like gaining powers is not a sufficiently powerful catalyst, random people you don't know dieing is not a sufficiently powerful catalyst, even love is not a sufficiently powerful catalyst (since where's the romantic feeling in it when one of the partners does a 180, it might as well be NTR), saving the one you love, saving the world, etc all are also not nearly good enough. And the reason they are not good enough is because they are all largely external. They deal with usual junk the character already knows; hey it's not like he was born yesterday (as much as the writers would love you to think that). At best they'll come out as awkward. Real catalysts work like this: First, the character has to have something in the physical world that he/she projects a good deal of their hopes/dreams/ambitions or otherwise just use as a role model. It doesn't have to be material per se, just has to be on the outside. Obviously characters that are just egoistic, self centered, overly optimistic or overly pessimistic instantly fail because there's very little chance for them to have such a thing. Second, you have to break that object and though it break the character in half. That's the only (good) way to get effects like coward to berserker in a legitimate manner; of course in any reasonable setting the character would get a lot of other attributes screwed with (he could turn evil for example). Now even when done right, this is more of a initialization into deeper character development. The 180 is not actually character development in itself.

The alternative (legitimate) method to getting the 180 is to just chip and chip at the character like grinding a stone with a needle. It's long, it's boring, it shouldn't be done on anything but damn side character, and even then it's bad. Why is it bad? because at the end they are either washed up characters or very broken personality ones; you will literally end up with half their personalities defined by the chipping you've done. Think of Naruto's conversion of every character in the manga into narutotards for an example of this. Them all liking Naruto is not character development, it's plot grind!

But anyway let's get back to the problem at hand. Unless it wasn't obvious an essential part of being a character (let alone a "good" character) is integrity. The character at the end is meaningless if he's completely incompatible with the beginning. Let's take a simple positive example (since it's so easy to give negative examples), say Simoun from Gurren Lagann. I won't spoil but as most of us know something happens half way and suddenly he's the man. Now that looks like he went from angst to heroics, but that's not really the case. If you compare him to his counterpart at the start, he's pretty much the same. Did he go to being brave? well no because he wasn't a coward to begin with (ie. digging holes and other stuff they were doing prior to the moment). Basically at the start he was only so-so independent (what with his friend leading the way), he was only so-so confident, he didn't have much responsibility and he didn't have much experience either. By the he hadn't really become brave, he simply had gained all those missing parts, one way or another. In a certain sense he also lost influences that were holding him back.

That's not the case for Shu at the moment. What do we know about Shu that could be developed? Does he even have anything that defines his character (other then the constant angst and worry).

• He has that artistic side of his, but from what is shown it doesn't seem like he's actually putting work into it—at best he's "special" but that's more of theme then a trait (like how his hair alludes to something, but really doesn't mean nothing)
  
  
• He apparently thinks everything is doomed, but doesn't really have an opinion himself; he's just echoing other's opinion, namely his mother.
  
  
• He doesn't have any political interest.
  
  
• He doesn't have any moral interest; I mean he saw his fellow countrymen get lined up for execution, a woman beaten in cold blood, BUT even though he saw all that and is involved, he still couldn't care less and just goes to school the next day like nothing happened.
  
  
• He's portrayed as artistic, but otherwise he's pretty damn stupid. For one he doesn't realize for a second WHY those people were going to be executed in Ep2. Secondly he doesn't realize where the hell he was going and what the significance of what he was carrying was. I mean even with out knowing the exact details, even considering the state of the world, it should be pretty damn obvious just how dangerous/important that little robot was.
  
  
• He apparently cares for not being heroic... WHY? He doesn't care for politics. He has no morals. He doesn't do a thing but sulk in his secret base. Where is all this caring coming from? character anomaly/myster =/= character development
  
  
• He for whatever reason wants to *act* the hero role. Obviously only if girls are involved. Someone needs to tell the kid it's less life threatening to yell and run towards the striper club. This is probably his only saving grace as a character; provided this act backfires in his face soon.

So yeah, good luck GC getting any character development with that setup for a protagonist.

Overall the other characters are pretty decent. They're kind of cool, a little rough on the edges but seems like their integrity as a character isn't in question. Well all but Inori but she got some indirect character development this episode with the trust, gun, and the "my inner self is represented by a sword" thing. Since the story doesn't really reveal much about her or her inner thoughts I can cut her some slack.

I'd say from interesting to not so interesting...

• Gai
• evil Antagonist-dood
• Inori
• the "funeral" team
• political antagonists
• classmates
• scientific antagonists
• Shu's new old friend

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

An anime that uses a futuristic, but still modern like setting where foreign powers are occupying the country (Think if places like Europe and the US occupying it) are being portrayed as absolute crooks and evil doers. Without a shade of grey in their personalities and actions, they somehow got into such a position of power to completely suppress an entire country's people and do whatever evil actions they want with what appears to be no accountability whatsoever.

If you think this type of portrayal does the setting justice, we'll just have to disagree.

I think Guilty Crown would draw much less ire were it set in an alternate world with few or no references to real world places or issues. People would be a lot more capable of brushing its lack of subtlety off as unserious and not worth criticizing. When people tell me that GC is just entertainment, this is the reason I just can't accept that excuse. Guilty Crown's setting just doesn't seem removed enough from reality for me to accept the liberties it takes with common sense. The only truly fantastic element is the void weapon thing.

[molitar]

I think they let him get caught. Do what he wants.. they have to force a shock to the naivety of Shu. As long as he is so naive he will not fight. He will not use his powers for good.. He will sit and follow the crowd. He has it in him to fight but he's too naive even after seeing innocent people killed he still believes the government is right.

Now to Inori I think she has been treated as a weapon and not a girl hence she wants to stay with Shu. It's really the normal life that is drawing her the life of a girl with friends and a fun life instead of one just fighting. But she in her own ways is naive and that is to the ways of life and common sense so she says what comes to her mind in a very literal way.

Now the one thing that bothers me I thought they said removing his Void would make him forget. So could they not just have removed the Void and left him?

Maybe after this scare and arrest Shu will realize that he can not be Naive and has to wake up.. They know who he is now and he will have to fight to survive.. They even gave him a warning and gave him the chance to save his hide but he threw it away so now he has no choice but to join them.

Inori, I think will take some time to build up some character after all it appears she was treated as nothing but a weapon or tool and Shu is probably the first to treat her as otherwise.

[creb]

Originally Posted by molitar

I think they let him get caught. Do what he wants.. they have to force a shock to the naivety of Shu. As long as he is so naive he will not fight. He will not use his powers for good.. He will sit and follow the crowd. He has it in him to fight but he's too naive even after seeing innocent people killed he still believes the government is right.

Now to Inori I think she has been treated as a weapon and not a girl hence she wants to stay with Shu. It's really the normal life that is drawing her the life of a girl with friends and a fun life instead of one just fighting. But she in her own ways is naive and that is to the ways of life and common sense so she says what comes to her mind in a very literal way.

Now the one thing that bothers me I thought they said removing his Void would make him forget. So could they not just have removed the Void and left him?

Maybe after this scare and arrest Shu will realize that he can not be Naive and has to wake up.. They know who he is now and he will have to fight to survive.. They even gave him a warning and gave him the chance to save his hide but he threw it away so now he has no choice but to join them.

Inori, I think will take some time to build up some character after all it appears she was treated as nothing but a weapon or tool and Shu is probably the first to treat her as otherwise.

I'm totally on board the Gai-set-the-whole-thing-up train in regards to Shu being 'betrayed' to GHQ. Both to make Shu dependent on him if Gai was to save him, and/or to keep Shu involved, so he can't get away with simply saying "this doesn't affect me". I'm betting GHQ tries to turn Shu, especially if the pseudo-science in this show decides the Void Genome is limited in supply and can't be retrieved once it's been used.

As for the memory loss, it's just the events surrounding Shu violating your chest. So, it wouldn't have erased the memory from the previous day.

[Sides]

Obviously there are two outcomes now for Shu, either join the Funeral Parlour (apparently that is the official name) or join the GHQ. If he joins the GHQ, that can open up some interesting story possibilities, like operating as a rat/snitch, or joining them official to bring down Gai and his crew.
The series is called Guilty Crown, so hope there is a reason why they used that title.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by felix

Spoiler for space:

My problem is not his angst per se. If he was a character that would just be all about angst and this was a show about his angst I would understand and probably enjoy it. But no, this follows the glorious "angst to hero" cookbook of fail. Let's think history for a moment. How many characters can you name that have gone though the shitty character to hero transition and were liked by fans? or how many GOOD characters that played the "angsty hero" can you think of? Think real hard, and take your time.

You done yet? Well, I can't think of even a damn one. These archtypes usually always fail even when they are in the position of a background/side-character.

But many people just don't get it! They think this is character development or that this is what character development is all about. ITS NOT! It's almost the complete opposite. Think about it, character are defined by their actions (not their psycho-evaluation), their actions in turn are defined by the combination of various attributes they have. This usually involves their beliefs, their morals, their political alignment, allegiance, friends, relationships, state of mind in the situation, and so on. Okey so that's what defines a character. Development happens when certain attributes overcome others. So for example initially we could get decisions influenced by his allegiance and political alignment and only partially his morals, but further down the line his morals and friends could overrule his allegiance and political alignment.

The point is, to have development a character has to start with the thing you are developing or at worst must not have the attribute at all. This does not mean he has the opposite; it's actually very very bad if he has the opposite! When a character has the opposite attribute to what you want to develop him into, a catalyst is required. And many people don't get how big of a deal this can be. Things like gaining powers is not a sufficiently powerful catalyst, random people you don't know dieing is not a sufficiently powerful catalyst, even love is not a sufficiently powerful catalyst (since where's the romantic feeling in it when one of the partners does a 180, it might as well be NTR), saving the one you love, saving the world, etc all are also not nearly good enough. And the reason they are not good enough is because they are all largely external. They deal with usual junk the character already knows; hey it's not like he was born yesterday (as much as the writers would love you to think that). At best they'll come out as awkward. Real catalysts work like this: First, the character has to have something in the physical world that he/she projects a good deal of their hopes/dreams/ambitions or otherwise just use as a role model. It doesn't have to be material per se, just has to be on the outside. Obviously characters that are just egoistic, self centered, overly optimistic or overly pessimistic instantly fail because there's very little chance for them to have such a thing. Second, you have to break that object and though it break the character in half. That's the only (good) way to get effects like coward to berserker in a legitimate manner; of course in any reasonable setting the character would get a lot of other attributes screwed with (he could turn evil for example). Now even when done right, this is more of a initialization into deeper character development. The 180 is not actually character development in itself.

The alternative (legitimate) method to getting the 180 is to just chip and chip at the character like grinding a stone with a needle. It's long, it's boring, it shouldn't be done on anything but damn side character, and even then it's bad. Why is it bad? because at the end they are either washed up characters or very broken personality ones; you will literally end up with half their personalities defined by the chipping you've done. Think of Naruto's conversion of every character in the manga into narutotards for an example of this. Them all liking Naruto is not character development, it's plot grind!

But anyway let's get back to the problem at hand. Unless it wasn't obvious an essential part of being a character (let alone a "good" character) is integrity. The character at the end is meaningless if he's completely incompatible with the beginning. Let's take a simple positive example (since it's so easy to give negative examples), say Simoun from Gurren Lagann. I won't spoil but as most of us know something happens half way and suddenly he's the man. Now that looks like he went from angst to heroics, but that's not really the case. If you compare him to his counterpart at the start, he's pretty much the same. Did he go to being brave? well no because he wasn't a coward to begin with (ie. digging holes and other stuff they were doing prior to the moment). Basically at the start he was only so-so independent (what with his friend leading the way), he was only so-so confident, he didn't have much responsibility and he didn't have much experience either. By the he hadn't really become brave, he simply had gained all those missing parts, one way or another. In a certain sense he also lost influences that were holding him back.

That's not the case for Shu at the moment. What do we know about Shu that could be developed? Does he even have anything that defines his character (other then the constant angst and worry).

• He has that artistic side of his, but from what is shown it doesn't seem like he's actually putting work into it—at best he's "special" but that's more of theme then a trait (like how his hair alludes to something, but really doesn't mean nothing)
  
  
• He apparently thinks everything is doomed, but doesn't really have an opinion himself; he's just echoing other's opinion, namely his mother.
  
  
• He doesn't have any political interest.
  
  
• He doesn't have any moral interest; I mean he saw his fellow countrymen get lined up for execution, a woman beaten in cold blood, BUT even though he saw all that and is involved, he still couldn't care less and just goes to school the next day like nothing happened.
  
  
• He's portrayed as artistic, but otherwise he's pretty damn stupid. For one he doesn't realize for a second WHY those people were going to be executed in Ep2. Secondly he doesn't realize where the hell he was going and what the significance of what he was carrying was. I mean even with out knowing the exact details, even considering the state of the world, it should be pretty damn obvious just how dangerous/important that little robot was.
  
  
• He apparently cares for not being heroic... WHY? He doesn't care for politics. He has no morals. He doesn't do a thing but sulk in his secret base. Where is all this caring coming from? character anomaly/myster =/= character development
  
  
• He for whatever reason wants to *act* the hero role. Obviously only if girls are involved. Someone needs to tell the kid it's less life threatening to yell and run towards the striper club. This is probably his only saving grace as a character; provided this act backfires in his face soon.

So yeah, good luck GC getting any character development with that setup for a protagonist.

Overall the other characters are pretty decent. They're kind of cool, a little rough on the edges but seems like their integrity as a character isn't in question. Well all but Inori but she got some indirect character development this episode with the trust, gun, and the "my inner self is represented by a sword" thing. Since the story doesn't really reveal much about her or her inner thoughts I can cut her some slack.

I'd say from interesting to not so interesting...

• Gai
• evil Antagonist-dood
• Inori
• the "funeral" team
• political antagonists
• classmates
• scientific antagonists
• Shu's new old friend

Well, that was a pretty extensive and cool rundown of the situation. But yea, what we know of Shu is not really providing room for good development, but we will have to see.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Sides

The series is called Guilty Crown, so hope there is a reason why they used that title.

Yeah it's because he has the 'right' to use the power of the King on his friends, to use them as weapons.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Sides

Obviously there are two outcomes now for Shu, either join the Funeral Parlour (apparently that is the official name) or join the GHQ. If he joins the GHQ, that can open up some interesting story possibilities, like operating as a rat/snitch, or joining them official to bring down Gai and his crew.
The series is called Guilty Crown, so hope there is a reason why they used that title.

Well, I wonder if there are side effects for the victims that Shu is pulling things out of beyond short-term memory loss. Then again, with the somewhat pretentious speech for some characters (Gai), it's possible "Guilty" and "Sin" are simply melodramatic reactions to using your friends.

As for the possible outcomes, if GHQ tries to turn Shu to the Dark Side, I foresee some time spent where he is unsure about what is right and wrong. Especially since his own mother works with them, and he probably does not view his own mom as an evil person.

I think eventually when he does get 100% committed, it'll likely be more Funeral Parlor than GHQ that he commits to, but at the same time, I think he'll also question Gai's methods and take charge of his own fate and do things in his own way. This probably won't happen until at least the second half of the show. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end Shu ends up fighting both Gai's brand of revolution as well as GHQ (or whatever shadow force is driving it, and you know this is anime so there has to be a shadow force behind it all ). I would be incredibly surprised if Shu remains Gai's lapdog all the way to the last episode.

Finally, more non-Inori fanart:


Artist: 朝衛

[molitar]

I read some people don't get the why under 17 rule and pulling items out of them. The Void we are told is the regrets and fears and as you get older you still have them but you are able to deal and cope with them better. Hence probably not strong enough to be able to pull the Void from under normal circumstances. Second thing the different appearances are probably related to that regret or fear.. So depending on the persons regret or fear the Void takes that form.. The Vase maybe represents an artists fear of not being able to make the perfect vase or maybe it was an urn for a dead one? Refrigerator may have been the fear or regret of someone not able to cook or some other accident in the past.

I think they explained it quite well though some was funny like what is this when he had a refrigerator on top of him. That power in the wrong hands could be bad the power to be able to pull someones regret or fear even in a physical representation could help to figure out what makes that person tick and could be damaging in the wrong hands.

[Sides]

The series is 22(?) episodes long, so Shu siding with GHQ, spying on the Gai's men, killing half of his crew as consequence, including crippling Gai, changes his mind goes out and wipes GHQ from japan.
22, or more, episode is long and you can make a lot of interesting stuff, unless of course they decide to fill them up with non-sense.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yeah it's because he has the 'right' to use the power of the King on his friends, to use them as weapons.

Really!?! sometimes it is as easy as it seems ^^

[Enternal]

About Shu, who knows because the thing that pops in my mind is Simon from Gurren Lagann so let's just sit back and see how it goes. This is not even a 1 cour series so I am expecting a lot of things should be happening. Even though this is episode 3, there's already a lot of things happening such as the world that Shu tried to stay in (and hide from what is really going on) is now crumbling down around him with his "good" friend betraying him. His friend is someone who belongs to the world that Shu wants to stay in is now pretty much dragging him back to the real world which Shu is trying to run away from after episode 1 & 2.

In a way, when we face pain we a lot time try to run away and hide from it. It's a defense mechanism physically and mentally. In Shu's case, he saw that outside of the school, the "dream" world, people were indiscriminately killed. So what does he do? He runs and hide. Now what the ending of episode 3 is doing is that no matter how much he runs and hide, he must face it because even if we are thousands of miles away from the cruel world, it will still affect us in some form.

Basically 1st episode is about Shu's life and his "dream" world that he lives in. 1st episode also shows how he was slowly dragged into the real world (actually he chose to continue to see the real world when he took Fyu-neru to the Undertakers). In Episode 2 he experienced the real world and how things are not okay and in fact is breaking everything that he wanted is his little "dream" world. He gets scared and ran way from the real world into his "dream" world again by the end of episode 2. Episode 3 with Inori joining school shows that the real world is in fact interacting with his dream world. Basically he can't run away from the truth and by the end of episode 3 was dragged back into the real world. This 3 episodes is pretty much like what Gai said that he only have 2 choices. Fight or run and hide and slowly get erased from the world. Now episode 4 should show his choices and whether he wants to continue running and hiding or now fight and survive.

Personally I never had issues with angsty characters. I only have problem with them if even in the end, they still stayed the same. This is only episode 3 of Guilty Crown so can we give him a chance to see how it goes? Even Simon took a long time before becoming so awesome near the end.

This actually also made me think of Luke from Tales of the Abyss. That guy was annoying, stupid, sissy, retarded, and a bunch of other things. Over the entire series he developed from what he initially was to a better guy but was still a sissy in some way or form. He then changed again near the end of the series and become someone who was strong, knows what he wants and goes for it with no hesitation, clear, and have a clear goal. He pretty much become a very very good character.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Shu is not just an angsty blank slate. He has strong feelings about his country being dominated by outsiders and wishes he knew what to do to change the situation. Look there for the basis of his future development.

So far, he has risen to a challenge he was given, but has realized just how dangerous and terrible that fight would be, so he goes back to his ordinary life. But Pandora's Box has been opened, and he will be forced to take a stand.

He is about the most real-seeming character in this show, to me.

[zeniselv]

i agree with kaoru, shu is very beliebable, is not very likely that a schoolboy who has a normal school life to want to join a terrorist group, specially in a place where beign a terrorist is like having a death sentence, and he actually had showed a lot of personality, it was just too bad his friend betrayed him.

[Flawfinder]

Someone called me out on the fact that I sure post a lot for a show I complain about so much. I guess I just have a thing for having forum discussions with people who have an opposing viewpoint to mind (as long as they keep it civil). It's sort of like Siskel and Ebert. I just love doing it, as long as I can say something I didn't say before. I don't think I said the following post before in the thread, so if I did, I apologize. Yes, I talked about my problems with the characters to death, but I don't think I took this particular angle.

Originally Posted by zeniselv

i agree with kaoru, shu is very beliebable, is not very likely that a schoolboy who has a normal school life to want to join a terrorist group, specially in a place where beign a terrorist is like having a death sentence, and he actually had showed a lot of personality, it was just too bad his friend betrayed him.

A lot of people sure relate to Shu, don't they? I can sort of see why, as in theory, it's not a bad idea. Having a kid who just wants to stay away from trouble, so he refuses the call at every turn. You can do quite a few things with that. Unfortunately, I can not agree with you on the fact that he shows a lot of personality. Where exactly is it? Why can't I see it? He just seems like a cut-out on autopilot.

I'm not against wimpy characters growing. I'm not even against wimpy characters in general. I wasn't against Shu being a wimp in the first episode because the antagonists were pretty rough. But now they're all over-the-top and Shu...well, we're three episodes in, and I don't know anything about Shu besides the fact that he's a wimp with power. I didn't expect a full backstory, but I expected something about him. And no, the fact that he's the son to a researcher of...whatever his mom looks at doesn't cut it. What about him? What do we really know about him?

Also regarding Inori, if she has a reason for being how she is, I'll probably accept her blank slate. Switch from Sket Dance and the story of why he talks with a laptop...holy crap, would that be freaking cool to see in this anime. I want to see something of that caliber in this anime.

Edit: By the way, if this show does indeed become very awesome, I'm going to laugh at all the harsh words almost everyone (including me) said about it in the past. True, these particular episodes weren't good, but...well, I doubt I'll regret watching it.

[FlareKnight]

I can understand Shu wanting to stay back and out of it. He did what he had to do, but if the choice was throwing his life into chaos and fighting or going back, he took an option that made sense to him. Sadly it just couldn't be that simple. Really once there was a witness it was over for him. Either he gets involved in killing Yahiro which would make it impossible mentally to just go to school as normal or he tries to make a deal and got betrayed. At this point all he can do is try to get out of that mess and fight, there is no reverse option. Though wouldn't mind if they knocked Yahiro's secret into the open, no sympathy for him any longer.

That incident in gym is just another reminder of how Shu just can't properly interact with others. He was just trying to agree and the guy just flipped out on him. CG is super rude, but calling her doll-like is fine? Can't blame Shu for missing the apparent fine line that exists for that guy.

True that we don't know a lot though. I'm fine where Shu is right now and rather get to find out more about Inori.

[j0x]

i guess Shu will be extra careful from now on about trusting others, i will not be surprised if he will have trouble later on having friends because of that betrayal