AnimeSuki Forums

LeaD36 · 2012-09-08, 18:28

i already said that the only target Hansode should be getting at this point is Anshinin-san
gonna be fun :/

Sol Falling · 2012-09-08, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guernsey

[

She may not necessarily be Ajimu but it is only a matter of time. Even Anshin'in san had to find another to beat Medaka without to actually fight her but she got trolled in the end by the real 'God' of Medakaverse by Nishio as well as Medaka's main character powers. Medaka is now an unbeatable demigod whose weakness is that she not powerful enough, Nishio may or may not be deconstructing the 'God Mode Sue' trope but he is playing so straight that borders on the line of ridiculous. Medaka out trolled God or the closest thing to God in this series.

lol, what. Medaka is not more powerful than Ajimu. Ajimu has a higher powerlevel than Medaka, that was explicitly displayed in this chapter. They even went right out and said that Ajimu was "all-knowing" and "all-powerful". The only reason Ajimu chose to use someone else to beat Medaka back in the Not Equals arc was because it'd be harder to do so. As has been noted in the manga multiple times, in a straight contest Ajimu could beat Medaka easily.

Also, I'm not sure what's really going in this thread right now, but I don't know what people are complaining about, honestly. What? Medaka is overpowered? The manga should've ended back in ch. 140? Are you guys serious? What the hell is wrong with the current arc right now, the plotline, etc.? It's the long awaited Shiranui exposition arc, and the details we've already received thus far are already far more than any of us imagined before. Do you honestly care about whether or not Medaka should "fail" a couple of logic puzzles?

Anyway, with this whole "protecting the world" thing it looks like Hanten is actually being finally set up as a Not Equal on a level remotely equal to Ajimu. We're learning more about the Kurokami family, Not Equals, and the Shiranui clan all in one go. Exciting stuff, I'm really curious about the new identity Shiranui has been set to be a double for.

Tyabann · 2012-09-09, 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The manga should've ended back in ch. 140?

140, while not resolving everything (and what manga like this ever does), ended both the current plotline and to a large extent both Medaka and Zenkichi's character arcs in a way that was satisfying.
Now we are starting to resolve certain long-running plotlines, but we are doing so in a way that is ultimately unsatisfying. Watching overpowered characters breeze through what would be otherwise difficult challenges is not especially entertaining (which is of course why the Medatrials were so damn good).
I'll be happy to eat my words if this all ends up leading to something on the level of the Minus arc or the Not Equal arc, but you really can't blame me for feeling this way after the outcome of the Jet Black Wedding.

Homura7 · 2012-09-09, 14:10

Now people start to realize Medaka is slowly becoming like Anshin-san

Tenchi Hou Take · 2012-09-09, 14:57

We'll see where this arc goes, was kinda hoping the previous incorrect translation was right and there was another not equal, who have pretty much by now been introduced as the only worthwhile oponents for our heroes.

Anyway my only real gripe with current Medaka Box and I'm guessing it's the core gripe with most people here, is that it's essentially a slice of life with all of the bad crap no real known progressive plot only only one of the good things from that genre interesting characters, and sometimes interactions. It currently lacks what essentially defines that genre. Compelling character development/ Medaka the primary character's, character development has mostly stopped. She went from borderline robot, love the world sue, to understanding slightly more realistic miss perfect. I can imagine most people can't imagine any compelling character development from. Same with most characters aside form maybe Zenkichi and Kumagawa.

Basically my point is while events are unfolding the story is going seemingly nowhere, no hint of where it's going or overaching point to story no forseeable compelling character development for most characters. Of course this can all change if Nisio wants it to he just hasn't hinted at doing it in a while.

Though really Medaka's character is rather problematic. Really for at least some mildly interesting scenario's for the hero, shit needs to hit the fan, multiple times over the course of the story. Flaws need to be made aparent with real unreversible consequences and unreversible consequences for the hero themselves. Medaka's essentially only had one and she's now in seemingly untouchable mode, with the only real issue being Aijimu who she's already defeated. Basically Medaka needs to lose and not defeat the oponents afterwards. She needs to feel the terror and the fear of the unknown and powers which you can't control, basically like any regular person does. She's too far down the path of suedom for minor hiccups to be construed by most people to be meaningful character development.

Sol Falling · 2012-09-09, 17:12

Given the metafictional nature of the Medaka Box universe (including, from the very beginning, the very concept of Abnormals themselves), I'm thinking it's absolutely fitting that Not Equals should be being set up as the foremost plot elements of the story. If you think about it, Ajimu's "I can see this world as it really is: a manga" and the whole Abnormal/Minus "the world bends to my advantage/disadvantage as if I were a character in a piece of fiction" ideas are conceptually connected. As early as the first introduction of the Abnormals, it became clear that on a fundamental level, there is some certain element which makes the way the Medaka Box universe operates different from our own, real universe. Now, with Medaka/the Kurokami's established as standing at the absolute pinnacle of that universe (in terms of abilities, and Abnormality), and the Shiranui's entire introduction with their being the counterpart of the Kurokami's, connection to the Not Equals, and stated role of even "protecting the world" somehow, we could be right on the verge of understanding the true secret core of the Medaka Box universe. This whole Shiranui revelation might be potentially the most important development in the entire manga. It has implications for the foundation for the entire world and setting.

If you are talking character development, the basic outline which was established for Medaka and Ajimu is "becoming (more) human". On a conceptual level, there's a lot of things that that could mean. And of course, the vagueness/philosophical nature of such a premise/subject might not even be interesting to everybody, but I personally feel like the manga thus far has been doing a pretty okay job, particularly with Medaka (who's received a lot of focus). The very foundation of the present "plot" (at least the chasing after Shiranui parts) is based on that, anyway (since Shiranui's departure is explicitly based upon Medaka growing human enough that she no longer needs a supporting double).

In any case, although certainly there are aspects of Medaka which are meant to show her growth as a relatable, normal human, in order to engage with her character in terms of her fundamental role or concept you really have to approach her in terms of a philosophical "what is a human". Honestly, dealing with that kind of topic is part of what Medaka Box, as a manga, is. And so inherently, on that level, let me just say that one of the things that no human can ever be, is "untouchable". Supposedly, at this stage Medaka is more human than ever, so why is it that people keep on talking about Medaka as if she's now untouchable or undefeatable?

Frankly, one aspect of it is that a lot of you guys are too focused on one part of humanity; namely "ability". That is to say, the capacity to overcome mental or physical obstacles. Unfortunately, the exaggerated supremacy of Medaka in this aspect of humanity is well-established as one of the fundamental points of who Medaka is, what she stands for as a character, so I don't really know why anybody would continue to focus on that as any sort of issue with her character. In fact, this specific area is the only area where Medaka has been portrayed as 'superhuman', so that if you are talking about Medaka's room for growth, or her characterization, or further obstacles for her in the story as a main character, then it is obvious they will be in other areas. If there are future challenges for Medaka in this story as a human character, they will be in human subjects apart from simple ability. But then honestly, isn't the creation of such a story simple, or aren't there plenty of other such human topics?

For example, another category of the fundamental realities involved in being a human is interaction with other humans, as a matter of being social animals. On one level Medaka has grown in this regard, in terms of being able, first of all, to understand some other people. Then there is the issue of Medaka's fundamental loneliness, and the possibility of romantic relationships, which are currently centered around Zenkichi. However, one of the other fundamental aspects of human sociality/interaction which Medaka is now presently dealing with is the issue of separation, which is the point of the current drama with Shiranui. How will Medaka deal with the reality of being separated from Shiranui? What will she think and experience when she discovers that it might not be a simple matter to get her to come back, or establish her desired relationship? Certainly in this regard Medaka has plenty of room for growth, is nowhere nearly "untouchable".

Of course, there are plenty of other such areas. The human reality of "change". The human reality of biological nature. The human reality of "desire", and the fundamental separation of a mentally conceived world--"belief", "idealization"--with what is genuinely true or attainable in reality. The human limitation on true perception or understanding of microcosm/macrocosm, the vastness and interconnectedness of the universe. There are endless limitations of the human condition such as these which converge to give form to our experience of reality, and Medaka, too, perceives the world through that complex. That's why, despite her characteristic complete growth in terms of human ability, there is still plenty of room for growth and conflict and character development. And the real point is, we are honestly only getting started as far as the stuff that Nishio can say through this manga and you should expect no struggle at all in terms of a shortage of developments to keep things interesting.

(As an aside, as just one example of things: how many dozens of chapters do you think Nishio could wring out at this point if he decided to develop Kumagawa x Medaka plausibly? lol. Now that's 'character development'.

)

Tyabann · 2012-09-11, 03:28

You know, I don't think it's really worth writing all that much if no one's going to read or respond to it.

xBakaChanx · 2012-09-11, 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol, what. Medaka is not more powerful than Ajimu. Ajimu has a higher powerlevel than Medaka, that was explicitly displayed in this chapter. They even went right out and said that Ajimu was "all-knowing" and "all-powerful". The only reason Ajimu chose to use someone else to beat Medaka back in the Not Equals arc was because it'd be harder to do so. As has been noted in the manga multiple times, in a straight contest Ajimu could beat Medaka easily.

Also, I'm not sure what's really going in this thread right now, but I don't know what people are complaining about, honestly. What? Medaka is overpowered? The manga should've ended back in ch. 140? Are you guys serious? What the hell is wrong with the current arc right now, the plotline, etc.? It's the long awaited Shiranui exposition arc, and the details we've already received thus far are already far more than any of us imagined before. Do you honestly care about whether or not Medaka should "fail" a couple of logic puzzles?

Anyway, with this whole "protecting the world" thing it looks like Hanten is actually being finally set up as a Not Equal on a level remotely equal to Ajimu. We're learning more about the Kurokami family, Not Equals, and the Shiranui clan all in one go. Exciting stuff, I'm really curious about the new identity Shiranui has been set to be a double for.

Wait what didn't Ajimu said she didn't fight medaka in the Not Equal Arc was due to the fact that she won't be able to win because medaka is the "main character" and the only way to beat her would be to use Zenkichi

novalysis · 2012-09-11, 05:02

On the other hand, I find Sol Falling's analysis an excellent apologetic for the direction of Medaka Box's direction.

Gohan78 · 2012-09-11, 10:18

I think that Nisio removed Medaka's only flaw: that she was unable to understand the mind of Normal humans.
Now she is pretty much a perfect demigoddess who just breezes through whatever challenge the story throws at her. Where is the fun in that?

The Jet Black Wedding arc was actually good when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council. Once Medaka returned to the fore, it became boring once again. IMHO, of course.

Guernsey · 2012-09-11, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think that Nisio removed Medaka's only flaw: that she was unable to understand the mind of Normal humans.
Now she is pretty much a perfect demigoddess who just breezes through whatever challenge the story throws at her. Where is the fun in that?

The Jet Black Wedding arc was actually good when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council. Once Medaka returned to the fore, it became boring once again. IMHO, of course.

I think that is probably the point of the deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype. I guess we can say that Medaka didn't change too much after the Not Equals arc. Even Ajimu had avoid a direct confrontation with Medaka and she is probably the only being who can defeat her. Unfortunately as Ajimu herself stated, you don't need to beat up an opponent in order to win and Ajimu got trolled in the worst possible manner. I may be wrong and maybe Ajimu wanted to be defeated by Medaka but Medaka did nevertheless overwrite Ajimu's scenario. Nevertheless, Medaka is now completely and entirely unstoppable now.

She is now way too powerful in every way, she can understand you better than you know yourself and she can any overcome 'challenge' that you can throw at her. Medaka is a delibrate exaggeration of the main character who defeat any foe by sheer awesomeness.

xBakaChanx · 2012-09-11, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think that Nisio removed Medaka's only flaw: that she was unable to understand the mind of Normal humans.
Now she is pretty much a perfect demigoddess who just breezes through whatever challenge the story throws at her. Where is the fun in that?

The Jet Black Wedding arc was actually good when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council. Once Medaka returned to the fore, it became boring once again. IMHO, of course.

I felt that medaka took most of the spotlight near the end rather than Zen and the new student council >_>

Wolfenstein · 2012-09-11, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohan78

I think that Nisio removed Medaka's only flaw: that she was unable to understand the mind of Normal humans.
Now she is pretty much a perfect demigoddess who just breezes through whatever challenge the story throws at her. Where is the fun in that?

The Jet Black Wedding arc was actually good when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council. Once Medaka returned to the fore, it became boring once again. IMHO, of course.

Zomfg.

Are you, like, me from a parallel universe using a computer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guersney

I think that is probably the point of the deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype. I guess we can say that Medaka didn't change too much after the Not Equals arc. Even Ajimu had avoid a direct confrontation with Medaka and she is probably the only being who can defeat her. Unfortunately as Ajimu herself stated, you don't need to beat up an opponent in order to win and Ajimu got trolled in the worst possible manner. I may be wrong and maybe Ajimu wanted to be defeated by Medaka but Medaka did nevertheless overwrite Ajimu's scenario. Nevertheless, Medaka is now completely and entirely unstoppable now.

She is now way too powerful in every way, she can understand you better than you know yourself and she can any overcome 'challenge' that you can throw at her. Medaka is a delibrate exaggeration of the main character who defeat any foe by sheer awesomeness.

Which is strange, since the entire Not-Equal arc was the deconstruction of that very concept brick by brick while that reality was substituted by Zenkichi's.

Xellos-_^ · 2012-09-11, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakaChanx

I felt that medaka took most of the spotlight near the end rather than Zen and the new student council >_>

did you really think Zen is the main character?

xBakaChanx · 2012-09-11, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

did you really think Zen is the main character?

Ya That what was I was implying when gohan78 "when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council"

Westlo · 2012-09-12, 02:48

Came 9th this week in JUMP, but it's still low in the pecking order and when brand new series like Assassination Classroom ranks in first place.... Only a matter of time before JUMP pull the plug, hopefully Nisio puts it all out there in this arc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Basically Medaka needs to lose and not defeat the oponents afterwards.

That's pretty much the only thing most of the people in here care about, even if whoever wins would be a massive deus ex machina bullshit (unless it's Ajimu), but hey who cares, it wasn't Medaka who did it.

Naginoura · 2012-09-13, 03:58

Spoiler for 162:

Stormbrigader · 2012-09-13, 04:29

Spoiler for 162:

Homura7 · 2012-09-13, 06:18

Spoiler for 162:

I need a translation of this chapter so badly.

Naginoura · 2012-09-13, 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo

Spoiler for 162:

I need a translation of this chapter so badly.

Spoiler for 162:

2012-09-11, 10:18	Link #10430
Gohan78 Awakened One Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern Italy	I think that Nisio removed Medaka's only flaw: that she was unable to understand the mind of Normal humans. Now she is pretty much a perfect demigoddess who just breezes through whatever challenge the story throws at her. Where is the fun in that? The Jet Black Wedding arc was actually good when the main characters were Zen and the new Student Council. Once Medaka returned to the fore, it became boring once again. IMHO, of course. __________________ Tibi, magnum Innominandum, signa stellarum nigrarum et bufaniformis Sadoquae sigilim. (De Vermis Mysteriis)

2012-09-13, 03:58	Link #10437
Naginoura 匂宮家 Join Date: Apr 2012	Spoiler for 162: That was an unexpected turn of events... ... Someone with an actual devil-like style (design-wise) appeared! Anshin'in's expression was priceless. __________________ 「それでは零崎を始めよう」・「傑作だぜ」

2012-09-13, 04:29	Link #10438
Stormbrigader Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Here	Spoiler for 162: Ajimu said she will only be able to stop him for 15 seconds I'm scared now....

2012-09-13, 06:18	Link #10439
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Spoiler for 162: HO-LY-SHIT I need a translation of this chapter so badly.

2012-09-08, 18:28	Link #10421
LeaD36 LeaDfactor Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hungary, Budapest Age: 33	i already said that the only target Hansode should be getting at this point is Anshinin-san gonna be fun :/

2012-09-09, 14:10	Link #10424
Homura7 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Now people start to realize Medaka is slowly becoming like Anshin-san

2012-09-09, 14:57	Link #10425
Tenchi Hou Take Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010	We'll see where this arc goes, was kinda hoping the previous incorrect translation was right and there was another not equal, who have pretty much by now been introduced as the only worthwhile oponents for our heroes. Anyway my only real gripe with current Medaka Box and I'm guessing it's the core gripe with most people here, is that it's essentially a slice of life with all of the bad crap no real known progressive plot only only one of the good things from that genre interesting characters, and sometimes interactions. It currently lacks what essentially defines that genre. Compelling character development/ Medaka the primary character's, character development has mostly stopped. She went from borderline robot, love the world sue, to understanding slightly more realistic miss perfect. I can imagine most people can't imagine any compelling character development from. Same with most characters aside form maybe Zenkichi and Kumagawa. Basically my point is while events are unfolding the story is going seemingly nowhere, no hint of where it's going or overaching point to story no forseeable compelling character development for most characters. Of course this can all change if Nisio wants it to he just hasn't hinted at doing it in a while. Though really Medaka's character is rather problematic. Really for at least some mildly interesting scenario's for the hero, shit needs to hit the fan, multiple times over the course of the story. Flaws need to be made aparent with real unreversible consequences and unreversible consequences for the hero themselves. Medaka's essentially only had one and she's now in seemingly untouchable mode, with the only real issue being Aijimu who she's already defeated. Basically Medaka needs to lose and not defeat the oponents afterwards. She needs to feel the terror and the fear of the unknown and powers which you can't control, basically like any regular person does. She's too far down the path of suedom for minor hiccups to be construed by most people to be meaningful character development.

2012-09-09, 17:12	Link #10426
Sol Falling Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Age: 35	Given the metafictional nature of the Medaka Box universe (including, from the very beginning, the very concept of Abnormals themselves), I'm thinking it's absolutely fitting that Not Equals should be being set up as the foremost plot elements of the story. If you think about it, Ajimu's "I can see this world as it really is: a manga" and the whole Abnormal/Minus "the world bends to my advantage/disadvantage as if I were a character in a piece of fiction" ideas are conceptually connected. As early as the first introduction of the Abnormals, it became clear that on a fundamental level, there is some certain element which makes the way the Medaka Box universe operates different from our own, real universe. Now, with Medaka/the Kurokami's established as standing at the absolute pinnacle of that universe (in terms of abilities, and Abnormality), and the Shiranui's entire introduction with their being the counterpart of the Kurokami's, connection to the Not Equals, and stated role of even "protecting the world" somehow, we could be right on the verge of understanding the true secret core of the Medaka Box universe. This whole Shiranui revelation might be potentially the most important development in the entire manga. It has implications for the foundation for the entire world and setting. If you are talking character development, the basic outline which was established for Medaka and Ajimu is "becoming (more) human". On a conceptual level, there's a lot of things that that could mean. And of course, the vagueness/philosophical nature of such a premise/subject might not even be interesting to everybody, but I personally feel like the manga thus far has been doing a pretty okay job, particularly with Medaka (who's received a lot of focus). The very foundation of the present "plot" (at least the chasing after Shiranui parts) is based on that, anyway (since Shiranui's departure is explicitly based upon Medaka growing human enough that she no longer needs a supporting double). In any case, although certainly there are aspects of Medaka which are meant to show her growth as a relatable, normal human, in order to engage with her character in terms of her fundamental role or concept you really have to approach her in terms of a philosophical "what is a human". Honestly, dealing with that kind of topic is part of what Medaka Box, as a manga, is. And so inherently, on that level, let me just say that one of the things that no human can ever be, is "untouchable". Supposedly, at this stage Medaka is more human than ever, so why is it that people keep on talking about Medaka as if she's now untouchable or undefeatable? Frankly, one aspect of it is that a lot of you guys are too focused on one part of humanity; namely "ability". That is to say, the capacity to overcome mental or physical obstacles. Unfortunately, the exaggerated supremacy of Medaka in this aspect of humanity is well-established as one of the fundamental points of who Medaka is, what she stands for as a character, so I don't really know why anybody would continue to focus on that as any sort of issue with her character. In fact, this specific area is the only area where Medaka has been portrayed as 'superhuman', so that if you are talking about Medaka's room for growth, or her characterization, or further obstacles for her in the story as a main character, then it is obvious they will be in other areas. If there are future challenges for Medaka in this story as a human character, they will be in human subjects apart from simple ability. But then honestly, isn't the creation of such a story simple, or aren't there plenty of other such human topics? For example, another category of the fundamental realities involved in being a human is interaction with other humans, as a matter of being social animals. On one level Medaka has grown in this regard, in terms of being able, first of all, to understand some other people. Then there is the issue of Medaka's fundamental loneliness, and the possibility of romantic relationships, which are currently centered around Zenkichi. However, one of the other fundamental aspects of human sociality/interaction which Medaka is now presently dealing with is the issue of separation, which is the point of the current drama with Shiranui. How will Medaka deal with the reality of being separated from Shiranui? What will she think and experience when she discovers that it might not be a simple matter to get her to come back, or establish her desired relationship? Certainly in this regard Medaka has plenty of room for growth, is nowhere nearly "untouchable". Of course, there are plenty of other such areas. The human reality of "change". The human reality of biological nature. The human reality of "desire", and the fundamental separation of a mentally conceived world--"belief", "idealization"--with what is genuinely true or attainable in reality. The human limitation on true perception or understanding of microcosm/macrocosm, the vastness and interconnectedness of the universe. There are endless limitations of the human condition such as these which converge to give form to our experience of reality, and Medaka, too, perceives the world through that complex. That's why, despite her characteristic complete growth in terms of human ability, there is still plenty of room for growth and conflict and character development. And the real point is, we are honestly only getting started as far as the stuff that Nishio can say through this manga and you should expect no struggle at all in terms of a shortage of developments to keep things interesting. (As an aside, as just one example of things: how many dozens of chapters do you think Nishio could wring out at this point if he decided to develop Kumagawa x Medaka plausibly? lol. Now that's 'character development'. )

2012-09-11, 03:28	Link #10427
Tyabann Homo Ludens Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Age: 34	You know, I don't think it's really worth writing all that much if no one's going to read or respond to it.

2012-09-11, 05:02	Link #10429
novalysis Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011	On the other hand, I find Sol Falling's analysis an excellent apologetic for the direction of Medaka Box's direction.