Fate/Zero - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[DmonHiro]

Wow, it was awesome to see Karyia finally use a command spell on Berserker to make him kill Zouken. Wait....

WHY DOESN'T HE JUST DO THAT?!

[Swithin]

Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer

Wait, I thought Assassin was out because they were all killed off by Rider back in the first season, I don't think Kirei had used any of his command seals (I thought they had vanished upon his death, returned to show that he still had a role to play and then he inherited all of his father's seals in addition).

Haven't read all the replies yet, but someone below (actually, the very next post after yours) pretty much nipped my loony theory in the bud. My thinking was along these lines:

1. Kirei makes a deal with Assassin to release the command seals, but Assassin still stays loyal.
2. Kirei orders several of his Assassins to fight the dialoguing kings and die (but some or one stay hidden and alive.)
3. Since he has no command seals left, it's easy to fool Tokiomi and his dad into thinking that Assassin is out of the game.
4. Profit.

But yeah, if Kirei burned all the command seals in the novel, then this obviously isn't the case. Was ordering Assassin to crash the party any less of a stupid and wasteful plan in the novel?

edit: Ok, all caught up with the replies.

It can't be Berserker, although I'm not sure how serious that suggestion was. There's only one reason to kidnap Irisviel: to get Saber to show up. So far, both Rider and Gilgamesh have expressed a desire to confront her. Berserker's only reason to force an encounter with Saber is if, in the process of kidnapping Irisviel, he realized that she doesn't hold Saber's command seals (if he believed her to be Saber's master, he'd just kill her.) This is asking a lot of Berserker... impersonating another Servant and carrying out an abduction, while being lucid enough to notice a small detail on Irisviel's hand, maintaining the facade under fire from Maiya, and then coming up with an alternate plan to get at Saber's real master by kidnapping the decoy. And he'd have to do all this on his own initiative, since Kariya is otherwise occupied. It doesn't fit anything we've seen of Berserker so far.

By the way, you guys make great discussion. Wish I had started checking the forums here sooner.

[Doria]

Other than the title, I don't think we have any concrete reason to believe the Servant, Assassin, is still alive, in any form. We saw that the Command Seals were gone from Kirei, after Rider killed Assassin(s). That seems pretty definitive proof that the Servant is totally out of it.

I think the general reasoning in the thread is sound. The only Servants/teams with any reason to kidnap Iri would be Gilgamesh and Berserker, both of whom have shown varying degrees of psychotic fixation on Saber. I also think that the dialogue with Berserker pretty clearly states his view of his relationship with Heroic Spirits in general, and thus probably with Saber, in particular.

Given the now-revealed careful placement of the two interlude episodes, I doubt that the Berserker dream/vision/whatever is placed in this episode accidentally, either.

Hmm, now that I think about it, it's been shown that Masters can experience the Servant's thoughts/memories. So I think that part can be both a dream, but also "real." It's not a real great memory/feeling, but I guess you can't expect roses and rainbows at this point.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

Wow, it was awesome to see Karyia finally use a command spell on Berserker to make him kill Zouken. Wait....

WHY DOESN'T HE JUST DO THAT?!

Because Kariya has the worms inside of him. One wrong move and Zouken and will kill him instantly.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Swithin

Haven't read all the replies yet, but someone below (actually, the very next post after yours) pretty much nipped my loony theory in the bud. My thinking was along these lines:

1. Kirei makes a deal with Assassin to release the command seals, but Assassin still stays loyal.
2. Kirei orders several of his Assassins to fight the dialoguing kings and die (but some or one stay hidden and alive.)
3. Since he has no command seals left, it's easy to fool Tokiomi and his dad into thinking that Assassin is out of the game.
4. Profit.

Ufotable I want my loli assassin godamnit

[Craxuan]

You can't even know for sure that that is Zouken's true body; the bastard is totally composed of worms.

[Goddess Madoka]

Originally Posted by Swithin

Haven't read all the replies yet, but someone below (actually, the very next post after yours) pretty much nipped my loony theory in the bud. My thinking was along these lines:

1. Kirei makes a deal with Assassin to release the command seals, but Assassin still stays loyal.
2. Kirei orders several of his Assassins to fight the dialoguing kings and die (but some or one stay hidden and alive.)
3. Since he has no command seals left, it's easy to fool Tokiomi and his dad into thinking that Assassin is out of the game.
4. Profit.

But yeah, if Kirei burned all the command seals in the novel, then this obviously isn't the case. Was ordering Assassin to crash the party any less of a stupid and wasteful plan in the novel?

edit: Ok, all caught up with the replies.

It can't be Berserker, although I'm not sure how serious that suggestion was. There's only one reason to kidnap Irisviel: to get Saber to show up. So far, both Rider and Gilgamesh have expressed a desire to confront her. Berserker's only reason to force an encounter with Saber is if, in the process of kidnapping Irisviel, he realized that she doesn't hold Saber's command seals (if he believed her to be Saber's master, he'd just kill her.) This is asking a lot of Berserker... impersonating another Servant and carrying out an abduction, while being lucid enough to notice a small detail on Irisviel's hand, maintaining the facade under fire from Maiya, and then coming up with an alternate plan to get at Saber's real master by kidnapping the decoy. And he'd have to do all this on his own initiative, since Kariya is otherwise occupied. It doesn't fit anything we've seen of Berserker so far.

By the way, you guys make great discussion. Wish I had started checking the forums here sooner.

Command seals... *Hint hint* If Kiritsugu can make Saber port in from one place to another with the seals, imagine the possibilities... perhaps it could augment or even give a servant abilities...? At a cost, perhaps?

[Klashikari]

Since this is some information that is already confirmed, better bring it out before the discussion goes in the wrong direction:
Kirei already spent all his 3 command spells on Assassin for their assault against Rider (explained in a cut scene in the BD version).
Also, Risei and Tokiomi confirmed Assassin death (and that's before Kirei starts being "corrupted"), so no, there is little to no need to expect Assassin to be back.

[Morisato]

I thought it was Kirei at first. The sound of the kicking of the door was reminiscent of Kirei using his martial arts on the tree to break free.

Also the fact that if it were Rider, considering his stature and that he's a servant (super strength), I would assume he could've kicked down the door in one kick instead of three. Plus Rider can just materialize inside the house without making a physical entrance.

I'm thinking it's Kirei with some disguise magic.

[Jarmel]

Wait why didn't he just use Avalon to save Maiya?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Wait why didn't he just use Avalon to save Maiya?

Avalon healing effects aren't exactly almighty in term of recover speed , but the main factor is that you need Saber nearby to use its full potential.
Considering she has left for quite a while, it is unlikely Avalon would change anything.

Iri could heal herself that fast because she is... well a magical construct, healing magecraft practioner AND Saber was basically touching her as well.

[Kanon]

Can they make Zouken even more detestable than he already is? What a sick, twisted bastard. If only Kariya could manage to escape his control and murder him slowly...

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Since this is some information that is already confirmed, better bring it out before the discussion goes in the wrong direction:
Kirei already spent all his 3 command spells on Assassin for their assault against Rider (explained in a cut scene in the BD version).
Also, Risei and Tokiomi confirmed Assassin death (and that's before Kirei starts being "corrupted"), so no, there is little to no need to expect Assassin to be back.

Another proof that Assassin died back then is that Iri's body grew weaker right after this death.

[GoldenLand]

The cast's got so small that there aren't many people it could be...

It didn't seem like something the real Rider would do. He was trying to recover his strength, and there was no need for him to kill Maiya. Rider doesn't seem the type to go for needless collateral deaths.

But impersonating Rider and riling up Saber would be a great move for someone who wanted a Rider-Saber fight to begin ASAP, before those Servants had time to properly recover their strength after the waterside fight. And assuming those two fought and one won, that would be a great opportunity for the real instigator to go in and fight the exhausted victor.

So it really comes down to three possibilities, IMO.

(A) Kotomine and Gil. That sort of stunt doesn't seem Gil's style, but you never know what Kotomine could talk him into. "I'll make a great show for you to watch. It won't be boring." Or maybe the person disguised there was actually Kotomine? I bet he can really jump around, and if not, he could borrow something from Gil's stash that will let him.

(B) The Matou family group. Kariya, Berserker, Zouken. Zouken just gave Kariya a serious power-up, and probably wants to take advantage of it by striking while the iron is hot. Kariya could command seal Berserker into impersonating Rider and kidnapping Iri, and have him lead Saber to where Rider is. OR the person who broke in was actually the powered-up Kariya himself, disguised by magic. That would explain why it took a few kicks to break the door down. I like this option the best.

(C) Somebody else entirely who hasn't featured in the plot. This would be a real let down.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Can they make Zouken even more detestable than he already is? What a sick, twisted bastard. If only Kariya could manage to escape his control and murder him slowly...


.

Well, yeah, when you have those parasitic worms, it sucks. And as Kariya's duel against Tokiomi have shown it, even boosted with the crest worms, he have no fucking chance against a well-trained mage, let alone one who have lived a very long time. Perhaps Kiritsugu would have a chance, but that is just "if" and we all know how doomed by canon Kariya is

Otherwide

Originally Posted by My friend

[16:37] <Sheba> my friend, just called Zerker in Fate/Zero 20
[16:37] <Sheba> Ghost Rider
[16:38] <Sheba> He have gone like "PENAAAAANCE STAAAAAAAARE!!!"

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Haak

Because Kariya has the worms inside of him. One wrong move and Zouken and will kill him instantly.

Or Sakura. He's basically holding her hostage as it is.

Originally Posted by Morisato

I thought it was Kirei at first. The sound of the kicking of the door was reminiscent of Kirei using his martial arts on the tree to break free.

Yeah, that's what my mind immediately associated the kicking of the door with, which made me think "oh crap, they're screwed!" But then we briefly saw Rider, so I felt "never mind, it's just Broskander" But then you know what transpired, making me go "wait, what!?" A good twist and cliffhanger that was.

Originally Posted by Morisato

Also the fact that if it were Rider, considering his stature and that he's a servant (super strength), I would assume he could've kicked down the door in one kick instead of three. Plus Rider can just materialize inside the house without making a physical entrance.

I'm thinking it's Kirei with some disguise magic.

Well, they did say Kirei pretty much mastered numerous types of magic, so it's not unthinkable that he would have one such trick up his sleeve.

And I could buy it being Rider if he had only kidnapped Irisviel, but in my view the fact that Maiya was killed pretty much confirms it couldn't have been him or at least not him acting on his own volition. There are just too many hints against it truly being him:

- In episode 17, essentially the last episode since 18 and 19 were flashbacks, Kirei was shown to have been informed of the location of the new Einzbern hideout.
- Later in the episode, Gilgamesh told him "Let us begin. Put an end to this farce however you see fit." and Kirei replied "Consider it done. May you have your fill of amusement." which sort of implies he's got an elaborate and mindscrewy scheme in mind.
- Rider revealed in this episode how little energy he has after using Ionioi Hetairoi twice and that he would only recover sufficiently come nightfall, and it was still bright out when Iri was kidnapped. Doesn't sound like Rider to make tactical decisions that contradict his earlier statements.
- Rider said he doesn't want anyone dying in vain for the sake of a dream that might not even exist, so would he really, as the big hearted man is, go and kill Maiya shortly afterwards? Nah. Too out of character for him.

And I never really suspected Berserker or factored him into the equation because his and Kariya and Zouken's scene seemed pretty detached from the rest of the events in this episode, but who knows. But if it were him, the responsible for his actions would definitely be Zouken rather than Kariya, yet the former seemed as if he was simply going to leave the rest to the latter after giving him Sakura's energy. I don't think Zouken's got enough hopes in Kariya as a participant that would justify him getting personally involved and invested into the war.

So yeah, Kirei seems like the best best to me, but at the same time an almost too obvious one. Oh well, we'll see in a week.

[Awrya]

Since Rider used his own prana reserves for those two Ionioi Hetairoi, which just using once could possibly lead to Waver's death, how massive were his reserves to begin with

Pretty obvious Rider didn't kidnap Iriviel, killing Maiya in the process isn't like hiim. I'd imagine him sitting on the floor, sipping tea and waiting for Saber to return, then challenge her

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Awrya

Since Rider used his own prana reserves for those two Ionioi Hetairoi, which just using once could possibly lead to Waver's death, how massive were his reserves to begin with

Pretty obvious Rider didn't kidnap Iriviel, killing Maiya in the process isn't like hiim. I'd imagine him sitting on the floor, sipping tea and waiting for Saber to return, then challenge her

Not that great.
Rider has C+ rank for MGI stat which is honestly average by Servant standards.
Still, that's plenty compared to a regular magi.
A regular mage has 20 magic circuits and they usually circulate roughly 25 units of prana.

In comparison even a severely weakened Saber had 1000 units of prana left in her store.

Most likely maintaining Ionian Hetairoi requires prana amounts in the hundreds which would be obviously lethal to an average mage.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

So yeah, it should be a very intense ride, and I hope they've planned it well enough that the 5 episodes we have left will suffice to show everything in all of its glory.

Don't you mean 6? 26 episodes in total.

[GDB]

It's only 25 episodes. At least according to the season 2 blu-ray specs.

[Vicious108]

Well it's 26 in the sense that the first episode was a double episode. But at this point, yes, there's only 5 episodes left.