2012-07-13, 09:01 | Link #10021 |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
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I was kind of thinking over the archetypes and cliches which define each character
Here's something from Clarste from tv tropes(wondering if it's the same person that posts here) "Kumagawa is fated to lose. He was born as a "villain", who has no choice but to lose to the hero in the end. No matter how much effort he puts into anything, no matter how skilled or cool he is, it's all going to come to nothing in the end. Even when he brings others down to his level, like Medaka, she still wins because he was born to lose. It's a cruel fate, and definitely a harsh look at shounen storytelling. I assume we all recognize this." But Medaka is also sympathetic. She was born to win, but because of that has no goals to strive for. She doesn't know what to do with her life, so she keeps wearing different masks and changing herself completely. This makes her inhuman, a beast, a monster, but that's just because she doesn't know what it means to be human, having never had a human experience. You can't call her lonely, that much too human of an emotion, but she's more like a computer. All she can do is do what other people tell her to do, to the utmost extreme. She's still the little girl solving puzzle games and math problems just because people put them in front of her. She doesn't know any other way to live. The main character is nothing without an obstacle to move against." Ajimu is of course Medaka taken to the extreme. She's basically God, only she realizes just how little that means. Because she can do anything, nothing she does matters. It's all just a story she's writing, a boring and pointless story that goes on forever with no ending in sight. There will always be new challenges, but since those challenges will always be solved soon enough there's never any tension. The endless escalation has no stopping place, but nor can she be allowed to die. The parallels to shounen series are obvious." By contrast, Zenkichi is "half-assed". He always puts his all into everything he does, but what he chooses to do is always the wrong thing or unimportant. He's the support character. He can't be allowed to accomplish anything on his own. He's the eternal sidekick in everyone else's stories. He is both like and unlike Kumagawa in this respect. He's allowed to win, but his win is always made secondary. The spotlight avoids him. When Kumagawa loses, he does so with style, but not so for Zenkichi. When he wins, it turns out that his win was just a way for a more important character to step up and do something more important. When he loses, it's a way to hype up the villains." |
2012-07-13, 10:16 | Link #10022 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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@silvercover
I can not agree. From the standpoint of Zen he has no harem. Since the beginning of the manga he has no serious variant, different from Medaka. In fact, this is a rare variant of the manga where the hero loves a _one_ girl for all the action. I do not understand where is the harem? Zen has ever hesitated - "perhaps I choose another girl?" or is the text of the manga "where he confesses in his feelings for another girl?" In my opinion, the tag's harem misleading, certainly less than the "Medaka does not like Zen", but misleading. Misleading like "the sun revolves around the earth" or "heavy objects fall faster (in vakuum)" - in this sense. Especially since it makes no sense to talk about the expansion of the harem now. At a time when the Zen x Medaka happy with each other. Perhaps Ajimu love (or falling in love) with Zen - but this will not be any development. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think so. @DawnEmperor +5 cent about Zen and Medaka. It reminds method of bisection (simple method for solving nonlinear equations) - in manga, they are moving towards each other. Medaka from Abnormal to Abnormal + senses of ordinary girl. Zen from Normal to Normal + ability, but he is an ordinary man (Zero in the classification of the manga). Medaka -> ordinary girl Zeen -> ordinary man + incredible abilities. Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-13 at 11:11. |
2012-07-13, 15:16 | Link #10023 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Ironically in the case of shoujo the reverse if thise rarely happens. It's usually an I can't choose sceneario with some being hinted at being the main rather than, I don't know any other girls like me and when i find out I'm still going to chase the girl I've always been chasing. |
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2012-07-13, 16:25 | Link #10024 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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I understand you, but some disagree.
To my mind was clear, I will give examples of what I think is a real harem. To make it easier to take the anime/manga/ranobe: - DxD - this is a harem, I think it no needs a proof. Take it as a standard. - To Love-Ru - another real harem. You know who will choose the main character? No one knows - Asobi ni Iku yo! - Another real harem. "Then we all three (3-th girls) can be mistresses of MC" LOL - Ichigo 100% - Kampfer - Omamori Himari - Sekirei - Konokon - Magikano - Love Hina ... - Tenchi Muyo! - As father (or mother) harem genre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Harem_ (genre) _anime_and_manga Harder can be called Nisemonogatari as harem. Rather, it is more a parody of the genre (especially after Bakemonogatari, when finally lined up the relationship Araragi x Hitagi). If you look to Nisemonogatari - it is more trolling the author - "I do not make such strange designs (the harem), and in any case, why in my harem a man in a Hawaiian shirt." Of course, we can assume Medaka Box weak form of the harem (from the point of view that there is more of a girl in love with Zen). But this is a very weak form of the harem. If we compare the harem as the disease - there is not a dangerous disease, but only a slight cold. There is also an important factor. Harem is a sign of Rom-Com or Rom-*. Everyone knows that the Rom-Com began only about 30 chapters ago. My point of view, this, I do not think every love triangle - harem. Look to wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaka_Box Genre: Action, School Life, Comedy, Romance without tag harem In one you're right. I'm not very objective. I do not like (not very like) harem genre lately. Last anime harem, where I was very good, was Sekirei. I'm like process add and add girls to harem. Yes, i'm preferred Iseei x Rias over Iseei x harem. Why? Simply, it hinders the development of relations in pair. They do not have time to start, as the author adds another girl. And another girl ... Looks to Accel World anime. But this criticism does not apply to Medaka Box. Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-13 at 17:48. |
2012-07-13, 20:44 | Link #10025 |
Romance Expert
Join Date: Feb 2012
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harem = having more than 2 girls who like you. whether faceless or minor characters, it still counts.
it counts whether or not there is ecchi/comedy in the series. it could be a dark series that is depressing, as long as at least 3 girls like one guy it counts as having one. and obviously harem is not just a genre. a series that doesnt focus on ecchi doesnt necessarily mean that there will be no ecchi scenes nor would a serious and dark anime have no comedic and funny scenes at all. like for example, you can find a hint of romance in practically any anime regardless of whether it focuses on it or would just stick to "friendship" at best. romance is a genre, but you can find several "romantic" scenes in most anime that arent classified as romance. |
2012-07-13, 21:03 | Link #10026 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 32
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Speaking of which, we actually got the games of the remaining suitors, and I'm surprised that the dark loli didn't correspond to the fake lolicon suitor, but rather the fake suitor who was into 2d. But after thinking about it, it makes sense considering her style, where she turns people into 2d cards. The remaining suitors are the princess which corresponds to the underwear fetish fake suitor, and the last one who corresponds to the lolicon fake suitor. It'd be interesting to see how princess and other lady's ability correspond to their corresponding fake suitor's fetish.
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2012-07-13, 22:13 | Link #10027 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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@silvercover
Wiki think different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(genre) 1. genre 2. a protagonist surrounded, usually amorously, by three or more members of the opposite sex. 3. where the main character pursues a romantic relationship with multiple other characters simultaneously Hmm ... President: Zenkichi Hitoyoshi Vice President: Youka Naze Treasurer: Mukae Emukae Secretary: Shori Wanizuka General Affairs Manager: Kudaki Torai It's Hitoyoshi harem? Really? I understand that strictly scientific harem can not identify. But your definition is also not full correct. So we all (almost all) of the anime describe as - "harem". In almost every: - There is a romantic line (though some sort of) - If there is a romantic line - must be have a rival - The main female + opposite female (your harem formula) = harem Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-07-13 at 22:32. |
2012-07-13, 22:53 | Link #10028 |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Let's see. Mukae's friendzoned, Munakata the Younger has hots for Akune. Naze's likely either bi-sexual or asexual, Torai and Zenkichi's relationship is strictly professional.
A harem? Really? If any thing, Kumugawa has more of a harem than Zenkichi! |
2012-07-13, 23:00 | Link #10029 | ||
minority spirit(?)
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Personally I don't like this genre too much ("spineless main character + overpowered females in his harem" - too stinks for me), but interesting series appear sometimes. Also I don't think that Asobi or DxD can be counted as harem - both have only two females romantically interested in main character. |
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2012-07-14, 01:01 | Link #10030 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Europe
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Iby@ To be fair High School Dxd is a harem and one that go down the route of a true harem. You can see this in the LN. If you only read the manga or /and see the anime,then of course you say like this.
novalysis@Anyway ,like other say is still a harem. I mean ....not get me wrong I understand you're point . But like the other say there is no need that Zen or the male want more than one girls for the harem to happen. The only thing need is that more that one girl like the male.(or at least this is how harem gender is nowday). |
2012-07-14, 01:18 | Link #10031 | |
Romance Expert
Join Date: Feb 2012
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enough to be a harem. romantic line: emukae and medaka have professed their love, shiranui didnt say it to his face yet but has admitted on how sweet zenkichi is, and ajimu is starting to be annoyed now. and your 2nd point is flawed more. sora no otoshimono, hoshizora, oretatachi ni tsubasa, kampfer, omamori,etc. dont have a rival. in fact, there are hardly any rivals in harem actually... 3rd is completely wrong. if its only 2 girls, its a love triangle. @novalysis for kumagawa... list down a girl who likes him then. the only one that comes to mind for me is the girl who strikes in her speeches. if your referring to kumagawa chasing other girls though... well its a pursuit of harem but he doesnt have one, right? unlike zenkichi. |
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2012-07-14, 01:28 | Link #10032 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Zen obviously does have a harem. At the very least you have three girls in the form of Medaka, Shiranui, and Emukae. Beyond those three I think any other girl's feelings are debatable (the creative delusions which end up suggesting that Ajimu is interested in Zenkichi romantically, for example), but it's undeniable that Zenkichi has multiple love interests.
On the other hand, Zenkichi having a harem in itself still doesn't necessarily even indicate that Medaka Box is a harem (as in, a story within the harem genre). In the first place that presumes the premise that Zenkichi is the main character, a designation which is at least equally carried by Medaka. Besides that, Medaka Box regularly shows an obvious focus on far more important themes than "a bunch of girls are interested in one guy romantically". Out of Zenkichi's supposed harem, you could hardly even say Shiranui's interest in him has any significance in the story. |
2012-07-14, 06:00 | Link #10034 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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@silvercover
"more than 2" - I agree. My last argument is wrong. However, he does not refer to Medaka Box. It's a "counter example". Because I made a mistake in your text source (where it was written more than two - i'm read two (!) Or more), then the "counter example" turned out wrong. For Medaka Box tag "harem" does not look natural. I'm more agree it's classical love triangle Emukae x Zen x Medaka. Zen love -> Medaka. Emukae love -> Zen. (classic love rival). Emukae make as "classic love rival". Medaka love -> Zen. Zen x Medaka = win. Just as planned Plus Zenkichi has multiple love interests and More then 1 girls like to Zen - it's different. Love interests Zen: 1:1 Love interests girls N:1 ... N=2 (IMHO) It's love triangle from girls side - it is more accurate. @novalysis Agree. |
2012-07-14, 06:29 | Link #10035 | |
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2012-07-14, 06:41 | Link #10038 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Pretty much there's tiers, those who have out right stated they loved him, Medaka, Emukae and Shiranui, and then others with various flags which don't outright mean they have something but may do, Torai, Aijimu, and maybe Naze, Kikajima was also in the flag stage ages back, but that turned out to be nothing.
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2012-07-14, 07:54 | Link #10039 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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@Tenchi Hou Take
Ok. Let's Zen-harem. Zen-harem in "non-harem" manga. But Shiranui it's more friendzone over "romantic story". Ok. Let's Zen-harem. Yet, we know that the "harem ending" will not. Or "ending without Zen" (the death of Zen - a bad ending), or Medaka x Zen. I do not believe "bad end" of the story. actually - the harem is important at the stage of choice, now he has a purely academic sense. Zen x Medaka - there's nothing you can change - only to kill the characters. Adding new girls will not change anything. |
2012-07-14, 09:47 | Link #10040 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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So from a harem manga perspective it's a harem, and it's following the usual harem manga pattern of the MC ironically choosing not to have a harem. This is not however really a harem manga. More of simply a main character having a harem. Sorta like how the main male lead in Binbougami has a harem of most of the female leads, despite being a very central character. Though Zenkichi is storywise more important than him, bordering on joint MC. Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2012-07-14 at 10:26. |
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Tags |
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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