2011-04-07, 20:09 | Link #321 | |
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I feel that the way a studio presents the material, whatever the designation by broader assignments, helps to distinguish those works from one another. |
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2011-04-07, 20:20 | Link #322 | |
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The same goes for Lucky Star/K-on/Nichijou. They have slight variations but they all essentially "cute girls doing cute things", relying upon gimmick catchphrases, playful fun and are very much comfort food. I'm pretty sure I've said this at least three times by now. The reason for me listing other works by other studios is to make a point that they have made significant attempts to diversify. KyoAni recenlty, with the exception of Munto, has not. Although I much preferably see another Key VN, what I would really rather is just another LN adaptation from a different franchise altogether. KyoAni CAN do it, they have shown via their track record they have what it takes. High production values and great effort into whatever they decide to do. Instead, they are wasting their talents into material they KNOW will sell well, of a genre that widely has as many critics as its fans (moe comedies), and take virtually no risks. That's pretty much milking the cashcow, and it is no wonder KyoAni gets a lot of flack. It is possible to both do something different and be commercially successful. For example, take a look at SHAFT in the last few years. Despite their problems, particularly in scheduling and budget-cutting in terms of animation, they produced Bakemonogatari in 2009, which is one of the best selling TV animes of all time (significantly higher than even K-on) and was influential in that it took dialogue (and "tasteful fanservice") in anime to a new level. This year with Madoka Magica, they produced a "Neon Genesis" for the magical girl genre, completing deconstructing it and is the most discussed anime on 2ch since Haruhi Suzumiya. Of course, your mileage will vary in whether you enjoy these series or not. I'm not expecting every studio to take a SHAFT approach, it would be suicidal for smaller studios. But be damned, if every studio starts to adpot the KyoAni approach, the anime industry is doomed in trying to create something creative or new. Kyoani is rich enough to take such risks. Last edited by Pocari_Sweat; 2011-04-07 at 21:20. |
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2011-04-07, 22:55 | Link #323 | |||
This was meaningless
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K-on, Lucky Star, Paniponi Dash, Hidamari Sketch, Azumanga Daioh, Manabi Straight, Hyakko, GA Geijutsuka Art Design. Quote:
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What I find issue with criticisms that Kyoani is doing more of the same is that it feels like there is uneccessary weight on the side of what the source material was and not so much on what they bring to the table as an animation studio to make something an anime. |
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2011-04-07, 23:29 | Link #324 | ||
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What I find really perplexing though is that you bring up Bakemonogatari as an example of something that is "creative or new" when, according to your logic, it is anything but. At its core Bake is a harem/drama which is essentially about "one guy helping multiple girls with their troubles". Each arc of the series features the main character going around helping a different female character with their problems. Hey, doesn't that sound familiar? Isn't that the exact same setup used by AIR/Kanon/Clannad? Well, since they share the same genre and setup, they must be the same, right? I mean, Bake also features 5 girls just like Kanon/Clannad. And they are also both set in highschool. And what do you know, they also both share elements of the supernatural! So they are obviously the same. But what about all the differences in their content and execution? Oh well those are all just slight differences. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Bake and the KEY series are very different and very few people will argue that. So then the question is, why the double standard in regards to Kyoani's shows? The main point that I and (I believe) Decagon are trying to make is that it is extremely unfair to look at Kyoani's body of work and claim that they are 'all the same' or that they 'never try anything new' just because many of their series can be classified into one genre or the other. When looking at the content and execution of their shows, it becomes clear that they differentiate from each other quite widely. It is the content and the execution of that content that mattes, not their genres. I mean, you wouldn't say that NGE, TTGL and Gundam are the same because they all fall into the genre of mecha would you? And I'm pretty sure no one will claim that the fact that each series consists of humans climbing into giant metal suits and fighting various aliens/robots/things means that the content of each is the same either. EDIT: I'll also take issue to the idea that Kyoani only works on stuff they "KNOW will sell well" or that they take "virtually no risks". There is no sure-fire exact way to know if an adaptation will sell well or not. If there were, then every 'moe comedy' out there would be selling tens of thousands of copies of DVD's and BR's just like K-ON. The fact is that they do not. The only reasonable way to gauge the success of an upcoming adaptation is to look at the popularity of its source material. If the source material is popular, chances are that the adaptation will be too. When looking at it from that perspective, the anime adaptation of K-ON was a huge risk. Unlike Haruhi (LN's were a cult hit) or the KEY series, K-ON came from out of absolutely nowhere. The K-ON manga was virtually unknown and it was being published in an obscure 4koma magazine that barely anyone had ever heard of. By comparison, (since you brought up Bake I'll use it again) Bakemonogatari was already a quite decently popular LN series before SHAFT ever adapted it. So in terms of risk, K-ON was clearly the bigger gamble. As a final note I'll add that the Nichijou manga is no bestseller either. Although it is more well-known than K-ON was before it was adapted, there is no way to tell that it is guaranteed to sell well based off the performance of its manga. Last edited by blooglah24; 2011-04-07 at 23:52. |
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2011-04-07, 23:42 | Link #325 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
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With the descriptions of K-on and now Nichijou being classed as "basically unheard of before the anime airs", wouldn't that be classified as a risk? Haruhi's novel series was somewhat popular already, as was Lucky Star and Key products before their animes wer made. Or is there some formula for popularity of manga of these types?
I also seem to recall a different risk KyoAni took and then seems to have walked away from (before they did K-On),Tonari no 801-chan.
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2011-04-07, 23:46 | Link #326 | ||||
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There's something that I think is important to keep in mind.
Kyoto Animation only does 2 or 3 projects per year, unlike say, SHAFT, who did a lot of stuff in 2010. So there's a real sense of opportunity cost to every project that KyoAni chooses to do. For example, let's say that you're a big Haruhi fan, like I am. KyoAni doing Nichijou pretty much guarantees that the earliest we'll see more Haruhi is this Fall, and probably not then. But then, I can't complain too much, because FMP fans are truly being left out in the rain. If KyoAni doesn't intend on doing more FMP very soon, then it's time to let another animation studio take a crack at it. Having KyoAni do something you're excited about has become a real mixed blessing. They'll do it well, but it might well take them ages to adapt it all. And beyond even that, there are the concerns that acejem raised. When you only do 2 or 3 projects a year, you have to be very picky about what you choose to do, imo... Quote:
Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that (I liked K-On's second season myself), but if acejem's criticism is that KyoAni isn't willing to go outside of their comfort zone, then the similarities between Lucky Star (anime), K-On (anime), and Nichijou (anime) seem to support that criticism, imo. Quote:
Nichijou also plays on otaku subculture just like Lucky Star does (i.e. Nichijou is absolutely loaded with anime tropes and character types geared towards otaku audiences, it's certainly not something I'd show someone who isn't already a big anime fan). Nichijou had a couple male characters in it (nameless ones, I think) that definitely made me think of Cromartie High School. acejem may be slightly downplaying the differences in comedy style between these three animes, but you're greatly overstating them imo. Quote:
Kyoto Animation is risking becoming a pure 100% otaku-centric light comedy moe studio. And I say that as someone who likes moe. Of KyoAni's recent works, the only one that deviated even slightly from this was the Haruhi movie. Quote:
These three animes are different, but let's not kid ourselves here: Genre is important. And if you keep doing nothing but lighthearted 4Koma-style otaku-centric comedies, that will become what people associate with your anime studio brand. And it's because I think highly of KyoAni's talents and capabilities as an animation studio that I want them to be more than just that.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-04-08 at 00:23. |
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2011-04-08, 02:04 | Link #327 | |||
This was meaningless
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And it's been said before, but Nichijou is not a 4koma. It uses 4koma for some jokes, but it's very much a gag manga. Kyoani has only done K-on and Lucky Star as 4koma series for a grand total of 5 cours and 1 OVA out of every thing else they have done. Personally, I would be thrilled if they animated Conspiracies of Suzumiya Haruhi into a movie and gave us a cour of the side stories, or finally get to where Leonard kicks Sousuke's ass, but I don't particulalry care when it gets here. |
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2011-04-08, 02:22 | Link #328 |
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Triple R said what I wanted to say better than I could.
I would like to add though, that I actually don't hate KyoAni. I really enjoyed its Key-based adaptations and I can tell they are the best studio for it. When P.A. Works decided to adapt Angel Beats, whether it be Jun Maeda inexperience dealing with anime original scripts, the lack of experience on behalf of P.A Works or the 13 episode restriction, it just wasn't as good. It would be nice if they did another one of those, or some more FMP at the very least. Ideally, they would just do something other than a slice of life comedy/Key-adaptation all-together using their reputation and high quality standards. I would like to see a sci-fi drama or a supernatural/action series by KyoAni for example. As for, Tonari no 801-chan, I remember seeing a trailer or demonstration video video for it some time ago, but I didn't know KyoAni had planned to an adaptation before scrapping it. Nonetheless, it would still fall under the slice of life/light comedy section, so it's not really diversifying either imo. In regards to slice of life comedies in general and my obvious bias against them, it's because I've seen too many. Starting with Azumanga Daoih to Lucky Star to Minami-ke to Hidamari Sketch to Manabi Straight to Kannagi to K-on... the list goes on. It also probably compounded by the fact, that it's not my type of comedy as I prefer wit, deadpan and sarcasm in my humor. But myself and lot of others can't help but associate KyoAni as "that moeblob studio" because all KyoAni has been mostly doing is taking advantage of the popularity in the genre. Such as shame it's labelled that, when it could have been much more. @Decagon: Purpose of a studio discussion is to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of a studio. Genre limitivity is a weakness. Also, you must be delusional to think Azumanga Daoih is not an otaku-centric anime or to think Nichijou is not a moe anime... I would find it extremely unlikely for a non-otaku to remotely enjoy either of these shows or understand its jokes/humour. And the point of whether something is 4koma or is not very relevant. Firstly, Nichijou still falls under the slice of life light comedy genre, second has cute/exaggerated female cast, and thirdly because of that the anime seems like it is adapted from a 4koma. Anyways, I'm done with the discussion. It appears some fans of the studio are too defensive. Last edited by Pocari_Sweat; 2011-04-08 at 02:33. |
2011-04-08, 02:33 | Link #329 | |
This was meaningless
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2011-04-08, 03:21 | Link #331 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Late to the party but...
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Aside from the "secret" that will require a complete different storytelling method (which would lead to an obvious requirement of more than meager 26 episodes), it will probably backfire at them if you consider that some characters are downright doomed if you choose the true end route (Who said Saya? ~~) As much as Little Busters has a lot of merits like the previous Key works for an anime adaptation, it is just suicide unless they find a creative idea (the difficulty is almost similar to a "possible Ever17" adaptation, so that's a lot to say). Meanwhile, as much as I would kill for the continuation of FMP adaptations, they will require a very longterm plan for it. Even though the light novel got its conclusion last August, they won't be able to make a proper season with less than 26 episodes, should they want to avoid a loose end/cliffhanger (heck, I'm unsure if 26 episodes would be fine). In fact, looking back at how the plot is going fullforce after the events of Second Raid, I think it is irrealistic to think they can "split" the rest of the story in several seasons.
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2011-04-08, 03:46 | Link #332 | ||
Pretentious moe scholar
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Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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I can see how people would perceive Lucky Star and Nichijou as similar despite having different styles of gags, but to throw K-On! into the mix? It had a episodic plot while the other two are sketch based, and to me the difference between the two is quite noticeable.
(For reference, BTW, I'd say that when JC Staff actually decides to do a moe show right, they can do it better than KyoAni. I'm not sure anyone has surpassed Azumanga to this day, and Taisho Yakyuu Musume had a significantly better cast and plot than K-On! IMO.) Quote:
(Actually, I think a lot of the classics "moe" titles benefitted from the fact that there didn't used to be quite as much competition in the genre.) Quote:
And yeah, I had gotten exactly the same impression regarding the difficulty in adapting FMP, although another season of Fumoffu would be far more doable.
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2011-04-08, 04:06 | Link #334 |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Well, to be fair, I actually do have to admit that I'd love to see Kyoto do more epic romance dramas, just not necessarily based on Key source material. Imagining "what could have been" if Kyoto had been responsible for making Sola or Iriya no Sora, UFO no Natsu practically makes me jizz my pants.
Actually, I kind of wish I had a shedload of money so I could buy a set of Iriya DVDs and send it to Kyoto with a note saying "By Toei, please rectify." Even if the already existing OVAs are a favourite of mine.
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2011-04-08, 04:14 | Link #335 | |||||
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When I say "ridiculous characters", I mean ridiculous as in not grounded in reality. And by grounded in reality I mean, for a lack of a better word, 'normal'. K-ON as both an anime and a manga is a work that is quite grounded in reality. For example, the girls have normal dreams and aspirations, they have normal hobbies, they go to a normal school, and they lead generally unremarkable lives. There is nothing fantastic or especially unusual about them or their world. The universe of Nichijou, on the other hand, is completely insane. Despite its name, (My Ordinary Life officially) the world of Nichijou is anything but normal. To give an example of some of the oddities; there is a robot girl with a key mechanism sticking out of her back (also comes featured with several detachable limbs), a child professor who invented said robot, a talking cat (capable of speech through an invention of aforementioned professor), a boy who rides a goat to school and who is also apparently immortal (also never without his Bach hair-styled butler), a girl who wields an impressively large array of firearms ranging from several handguns to bazookas and hand grenades, and a principal who spends his free time wrestling with a deer. The class several of the girls attend is Class 1Q, there are several students walking around with absolutely ridiculous haircuts, and the school has its very own Soccer (as in football) Go (as in Hikaru no Go) club. As you can see, Nichijou clearly operates on its own set of rules here. As I'm sure you know having watched K-ON/Lucky Star, there is nothing near this strange in either of those series. As for over-the-top character reactions, it is impossible to describe what I mean here in words. Let's just say that like what I listed above, it takes things to a whole different level from anything in K-ON/Lucky Star. If you would like, please take a look at the Nichijou manga to get a feel for what I mean (A certain chapter featuring a house of cards come to mind). Quote:
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For example, Lucky Star features several characters who are otaku, and it uses many of their otaku tendencies to make their jokes. An example would be Konota lecturing Kagami on buying multiple books (one for collection, one for usage and so on). It is using Konota's otaku nature in order to make a joke. Konota also references and gives shoutouts to many, many, MANY other anime and manga, both popular and obscure. Once again, the comedy and laughs come from the fact that Konota is an otaku and that she uses her vast knowledge of anime and manga in her everyday life. This is what I (and I assume Decagon) mean when we speak of "indulgence of otaku subculture." We are not speaking at all of who watches the show or its demographics (I mean, who other than an otaku is gonna stay up till 2am to watch some anime). As was clear from the first episode, Nichijou does not use any of this for its humour. None of the characters have been revealed to be an otaku, and there hasn't been a single reference to any other anime or manga series (and its the same for the manga). Quote:
As far as Nichijou goes, I find it a bit hard see how someone can label it as a "moe comedy" when it is clearly anything but. The source of its humour is (almost) never drawn from the cuteness of its characters but from the extremeness of its gags. In fact, for many of the gags, the manga (and anime) undergoes an art shift into distinctly uncute styles. Since I assume you have not read any of the manga, I can be much more understanding since it is pretty much impossible to form a complete impression of something after only seeing a brief 24 minutes. After all, only 1 episode of Nichijou has aired. I also invite you to check out the manga if you'd like in order to more clearly see what I've been trying to explain. Quote:
Do I believe Kyoani is perfect? Of course not. No studio is. Could they do with trying out some different genres? Ya sure, why not. More FMP would be fantastic. A new original series would be even better. The only thing I took issue with in some of your posts were that your criticisms seemed to be based on quite arbitrary standards and that you were too willing to bunch up together too many series into a single pigeonhole. Last edited by blooglah24; 2011-04-08 at 04:46. |
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2011-04-08, 04:33 | Link #336 | |
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If Kyoani is in some kind of exclusive deal with those companies with some kind of profit sharing agreement, then it would explain why they put so much more effort in a single title (and why they don't make any original anime). Rather then churning out as many projects per year, which is the norm for a typical production studio. Also their ability to keep much of the production process in house, compared to the typical sub contracting structures found in normal anime production, should help Kyoani to retain a bigger piece of the pie. (This explains their large staff in comparison to their relatively small output). Another thing is that Kyoani also has an animation school as part of their bussiness. They can train their new staff inhouse which helps guarantee a steady level of quality over time. To me that shows Kyoani has a long term strategy. Should at some point otaku-centric light comedy moe fall from grace as the most popular genre, I have little doubt Kyoani would simply switch to whatever genre is popular then. (This is also the reason why I fear we won't see any future FMP sequels anytime soon.) The studios main weakness of course is that their shows require more financial succes per title to break even. Last edited by Bri; 2011-04-08 at 04:45. |
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2011-04-08, 05:07 | Link #337 | |
Banned
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Age: 38
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So to sum up and dispel dreams of KyoAni ever becoming a creative force for Japan's animation, I'm sorry, this will never happen because KyoAni's aim is to market characters, not animation, and they are becoming better at this with each series they produce. |
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2011-04-08, 09:32 | Link #338 | |
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But if they only cared about marketing characters why would they still bother with high production values and low numbers of shows? Nor would only adapting existing works make much sense as they will have to share proceeds from charactergoods with the IP holders. |
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2011-04-08, 09:38 | Link #339 |
Also a Lolicon
Join Date: Apr 2010
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1. The vast majority of studios are otaku centric. If you watch anime as an adult, you are probably an otaku, or at least not normal. If they don't make series whose target demographic is kids, they are otaku centric. I'm fairly sure one can extend that to if they don't make series that air at prime time slots, they are otaku centric. This includes shoujo/shounen manga and LN adaptations that air outside of prime time, as they have shifted their target demographic. Manga is very mainstream, there will probably be fans that watch the anime since they liked the source, but the primary target is probably still the otaku crowd.
2. I think a lot of people saying that KyoAni works can't be classified as Key VN/Moe Comedy/Other are looking too specifically for differences. Though I think the argument that K-On isn't like L☆S and Nichijyou makes some sense. Key is very formulaic. I think its one of the best formulas out there, and there is sufficient differences to not feel formulaic without taking a step back and analyzing, but CLANNAD/Kanon/AIR are very similar to each other. Guy helps girls with problems, sadness ensues, often ends in a heartwarming way. |
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