[Manga] Chapter 393 Discussion

[Morgun]

At least now we know how Madara is going to die. Right before he unleashes his evil plan he'll choke to death on a ham sandwich. Kishi is a storytelling genius!

[TooPurePureBoy]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Kishimoto, like Oda, Togashi, Kubo, or even Hoshino can take a week off in order to formulate and rethink his story. In fact he has enough leeway , considering the fact that he is popular enough (not the most popular, but popular enough), to take several weeks off at time in order to work on his product. He can not use the excuse that he did not have enough time, especially consideing the fact that someone like Oda, who has almost as many plot-lines etc. floating around, consistently produces high quality work on a week to week basis.

I will agree, though, that he is having some problems controling his story (seemingly due to outsider interference), especially some of his characters. Kishimoto needs a good editor (not a manager) to help him, but sadly that has not happened yet.

You are correct of course. I was just trying to throw some kindness toward kishimoto in a post that was otherwise filled with me hating on him.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Kishimoto, like Oda, Togashi, Kubo, or even Hoshino can take a week off in order to formulate and rethink his story. In fact he has enough leeway , considering the fact that he is popular enough (not the most popular, but popular enough), to take several weeks off at time in order to work on his product. He can not use the excuse that he did not have enough time, especially consideing the fact that someone like Oda, who has almost as many plot-lines etc. floating around, consistently produces high quality work on a week to week basis.

I will agree, though, that he is having some problems controling his story (seemingly due to outsider interference), especially some of his characters. Kishimoto needs a good editor (not a manager) to help him, but sadly that has not happened yet.

I do not know what´s up with you guys, in my opinion the storyline in Naruto has always been great, and yes I have played games like FF7...
I just can´t understand why some of you critizise Masashi Kishimoto for his great work.

[Mists]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I do not know what´s up with you guys, in my opinion the storyline in Naruto has always been great, and yes I have played games like FF7...
I just can´t understand why some of you critizise Masashi Kishimoto for his great work.

It's all about what the reader experience. I've read several mangaka's works and of course authors, stories, watched good movies etc...It's sort of a competition but one that hopefully moves upward instead of downwards.

If you review another story you take into account the previous stories you know about and how they were executed. Even Toriyama's original Dragonball story holds up to the hands of time, considering how old it is...but it was just well executed and hence many people look up to him.

Kishi's artwork has definitely been great in some parts though lately the story and art seems to be crashing down. But I mean, reading Togashi's work and seeing how he takes years of breaks but yet comes back with the same intensity and type of story telling is amazing.

The Full Metal Alchemist series was well executed, animes such as Last Exile, Cowboy Bepop, etc...I usually don't like to waste my time with mediocore ones. But with all those stories there came Naruto which was great at first, now it seems to be fumbling.

Are you saying Naruto is as great as it once was? Are you considering it stand alone void of any knowledge of other great stories? I'm kind of curious...and those Sasuke icons/avatars don't help too much

Whatever the case, I'm sure the opinion is split though I don't know how you can label this as 'Great', what other levels are there? Awesome? Excellent? Good? Okay? Ahh well....I gotta stop spamming the thread for a while now

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Mists

[...]Are you saying Naruto is as great as it once was? Are you considering it stand alone void of any knowledge of other great stories? I'm kind of curious...and those Sasuke icons/avatars don't help too much

Whatever the case, I'm sure the opinion is split though I don't know how you can label this as 'Great', what other levels are there? Awesome? Excellent? Good? Okay? Ahh well....I gotta stop spamming the thread for a while now

Yes, I am saying that Naruto is still as great as it once was.

Actually i am not really a Sasuke fanboy nor do I like him much, the sig just looks cool.^^ At the moment I am desperately trying to get other people´s attention in several "signature and gif request threads"...

"Great" to me just means that I really enjoy reading the chapters, theres nothing more about that.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You'd probably find that it's true that less people complained about the earlier fights. But remember, these fights took place at a time when people didn't have as many preconceived notions about how the characters should fight and what they should be able to accomplish. Gaara vs. Naruto fight would be called garbage now because Naruto would be accused of spamming KB and Kyuubi's chakra. Him summoning Gamabunta at the last second would be "plot no jutsu" and taking out Gaara with single punch would be labeled "anti-climatic". But people looking back at the "good 'ol days" only remember the enjoyment they got from reading a manga just to see what would happen, not scrutinizing it for errors.

Since then, people have formed staunch opinions about the characters and continually grow more critical of them (particularly Naruto and Sasuke). Itachi vs. Sasuke, battle in particular has been foreshadowed since nearly day 1 of the manga. Nearly everyone who has followed this manga had time to clearly form an ideal of how this fight would go down. Unfortunately, it's impossible to please the ideals of everyone.

As opposed to a battle like Sasori vs. Chiyo & Sakura, where most the abilities of Chiyo and Sasori were mostly unknown and people weren't anticipating the fight with such an exact expectation of what they would see, the high expectations for Itachi vs. Sasuke made it harder for people get enjoyment out of the battle, since they were comparing it to the ideals of how they believed the characters would fight.

Your probablly completly accurate in your statement. That people are more opinionated now then before. The only thing I would add I suppose, is that I think that unlike the Sasori fight, where no one knew really knew Sasori, or cared that much for him back then, he was just fodder basicly that apreared & died soon after. This fight has a lot of Sasuke haters, a lot of Itachi haters, and the reverse, Sasuke fan boys / girls, & Itachi fan boys / girls. That makes this fight so much more vocal then the others. Not to mention like you said it has been forshadowed for a very long time. Both sides want their respective person to come out on top, even if it doesn't necessarily mean the death of the other one.

Originally Posted by Mists

I can't remember Kenshin vs Sishiu...who was that again? Not the god's-speed fast swordsmen right? It was the mummy guy? I honestly can't remember that fight too well but maybe because it wasn't that good...?

I remember the Sakura vs Sasori fight. People were split on that too, but not as bad. If I remember, it just seemed too long for a character that didn't seem too important and quite useless. And I think people were complaining that all Sakura learned was to hit hard and that what was going on with Naruto all this time?

I actually kinda liked it because it wasn't totally unbelievable since Sakura had Chiyo on her side and it was a great combination vs Sasori, otherwise they wouldn't have stood a chance. That fight was another one where the bad guy just lets himself die, Chiya said he could've dodged the shot to the heart. But he was too preoccupied with the past with his parents.

That was more believable. Itachi just collapsing after all this time, no flashback, no answers, and he had said "Sasuke, you've gotten strong" 5 times or so, and they both said "Now it's time to make my dream a reality" or "Is this how you envision my death" like 5 times, and "This is where it ends" like 5 times. It just gets boring.

Sasori didn't yap his mouth about nonsense I don't think like "this will be the end! AGAIN!" He just did his cliche "I can't believe I have to resort to this attack..." or "I can't believe I have to show myself, it's been so long!"

Bleh Itachi. Bleh at the fact Sasuke has been unscathed all this time by Oro, Deidei, and now Itachi. Not even a scratch!

I liked when Naruto pushed himself to the limits and crawled with his chin to try and protect his friends. Before, all of Naruto fights had true meaning to share with the reader. These pt 2 fights with Sasuke...barely have any meaning, even if they were developed for so long.

Spoiler for Roruni Kenshin:

Sushio, was the mummy guy, he had a condition that was created from him being set on fire, that he could no longer sweat. There for his body tempurture would rise, unless he went to the springs, or found another method to release the body heat. This was forshadowed for a while, and I think that's why it worked out so well in Ruroni Kenshin. In the end he fought Kenshin for to long, in an infernary no less, and ultimately ended up spontaniously combusting. It was a good battle, he seemed superior to Kenshin, (though arguable, since Kenshin wasn't at 100%, and Sushio was) and while Kenshin won, it wasn't that bad.

However Itachi just falling over, now makes me think, that any bad ass, can just fall over and die all the same. Omg Naruto beats Pain & Madara at the same time, because he has more chalkra then them, and out lasts them, until they die.... woot go Naruto. It's just so lame. In Sushio's case it was something that could only really happen to him, here, it's like Sasuke dominated the entire fight one way or another, and, then the second Itachi pulls out his ace, it's revealed he did so at the cost of his own life. I mean wtf seriously? lamest win in my opinion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I do not know what´s up with you guys, in my opinion the storyline in Naruto has always been great, and yes I have played games like FF7...
I just can´t understand why some of you critizise Masashi Kishimoto for his great work.

Seconded!

But seriously some people talk shit about this manga and then they take as example other manga/story that he thinks is good or even excellent. However many times the example manga that they mention is in my opinion bad/weak/boring. I mean we all have different taste for the story, characters, drawing style, etc., lets just say that most of us have totally different tastes, what i think is excellent others think is bullshit and vice versa.
Right now i think that this was an excellent fight, one of the best ones in the Naruto manga.

The outcome of the fight was as i expected: Itachi won the fight but he died. What i didn't expect is that it apparently turns out that Itachi really was such an evil person as stated in the beginning. I expected some kind of revelation about Itachi. What we get instead is two speeches from Itachi that we cannot hear but only Sasuke, and earlier Naruto can. Sasuke did think "!", so it was something unexpected. I think Itachi was evil after all, but the revelation that will come will give some shades to his character, i mean not being completely black but a bit lighter.

From the fight we can safely assume that if Itachi were healthy while using his MS he would be the strongest known ninja (including the sannins, hokages and akatsuki): his ultimate defense cannot be beaten by anyone, also he cannot be attacked by genjutsu since he is the strongest know genjutsu user, his attack with the mythical sword is the strongest known attack since it kills instantaneously anyone who is struck with that sword and the sword seems like a non-materialized thing so it can go through any ultimate defense. Of course i did take into account only the fights presented in the manga, so we don't know anything about the 1st hokage vs Madara fight and thus i didn't take that into account. But for example a healthy Itachi would be able to easily defeat both Pein and Jiraiya, his ultimate jutsu would render him invulnerable against any attack coming from Pein or Jiraiya, also he could easily kill them with that haxxor sword I think that somewhere near the end of the manga Sasuke will be able to use this MS jutsu while being healthy (just consuming chakra as with normal jutsu they do).

[tatami]

and if it is animated in a good way...omg...

[HiroInazuma]

I am quite pleased with the outcome, Sasuke didnt win he was just lucky enough Itachi was going blind, wasting energy with genjutsu and MS jutsus, Oro came out and drained some of Itachi's energy and then finally Itachi just collapsed

[ace_TZ]

Originally Posted by Hunter

This is probably the craziest thing I have heard today, Itachi killing Naruto would have justified Sasuke's revenge contrary to the murder of his family?

You didn't catch my point. I did not mean it from the view of kishi's story. If it had happened atleast it would have a much compelling reason for many non uchiha fans to ENJOY this manga. Since most stories have crappy endings one way or the other. only the beginning and the journey to the end makes it enjoyable. Here it had a great beginning and in the middle here in naruto the main character is almost non-existent, useless. Right after the third died, its all about sasuke and uchiha. And i don't want to speak of the ending.

I do not know what´s up with you guys, in my opinion the storyline in Naruto has always been great, and yes I have played games like FF7...
I just can´t understand why some of you critizise Masashi Kishimoto for his great work.

Yeah maybe that was before 3 years ago but no more. Even though Naruto is more popular/cash cow than many of them combined, from what i read from in japan the anime was ranked 26th last year and the manga not in top 10. By the way one piece, Berserk, was ranked in top 5 along with bleach in top 10. No wonder kishi is loosing here. Hence i guess the rush in killing of sanin's, itachi, akatsuki, kyuubi being a pet everything is revealed too fast. People make mistakes when they rush. Kishi is not immune to it. Since a story entirely depends on timing, naturo's story especially since gaara's arc is way off in many aspects when compared to ff7, its more like ffx-2 and ffxii that is in story wise.

[nitteo]

Itachi probably collapses from/because he is fighting Oro inside his body/mind. I think the 2 swords (Oros and Itachis) story is going to be explained.

[TooPurePureBoy]

I do not know what´s up with you guys, in my opinion the storyline in Naruto has always been great, and yes I have played games like FF7...
I just can´t understand why some of you critizise Masashi Kishimoto for his great work.

FF7 while a really good game/story is not the epitome of good storytelling, so if that's where you are coming from I can understand why you are confused at some of the criticism leveled and Kishi's current storytelling abilities.

I've been reading voraciously anything I could get my hands on since I was 8 years old (started with comic books) in attempts to become a great writer so I can't help but analyze whatever it is I read. I'm not trying to use real life credentials or anything on the internet cause I know that's lame, but you were confused as to how some could criticize such a "great" writer.

Sorry this is only one mans opinion, and it's worth no more than the next but as much as I've enjoyed the manga Naruto over the years it is in no way "Great" in comparison to some of the other stuff out there. Try crackin' a few more books then come tell me that FF7 or Naruto is something deserving of the description "great". Seriously, you can say "I think the story is great" and that's fine cause it's obviously your opinion. If you want analyze it in a literary sense then no you can't call it great, there are to many mistakes in plot line holes to along with dues ex machina to label it great on a strict literary basis. That's where i'm comin from with my last post.

Do I like Naruto the story? Ya, I wouldn't be here otherwise. Do I like shonen manga? Ya, I guess, but honestly if there is a story involved I'll pretty much read anything so that's no indication of it's over-all technical value to a person who analyzes literature or something. You can enjoy a story and still know it could have been better, happens all the time.

[Rachy]

That's just a gorgeous ending if he's tapping Sasuke on his forehead like he use to do to him when they were young.

So crying this chapter ;_;.

[TooPurePureBoy]

That's just a gorgeous ending if he's tapping Sasuke on his forehead like he use to do to him when they were young.

Ya actually, even though I've said a lot of crap about the story in the last 2 posts I will say that that is quite well done.

[King Lycan]

meh this sucks ....Itcahi losing the emo sauske ._. i wish it was the other way around

[ZGoten]

@Nine-Tails-Nin

Maybe my opinion would change if I tried to analyze the storytelling. However I highly doubt that even half of the people who say Kishi´s storytelling is getting worse tried to analyze it.
One more thing: To me you really are the first person ever to say FF7´s storytelling is not great.
Ok, sorry for being off topic, I´ll stop discussing about that in this thread, now.

On Topic: What is Itachi tapping Sasukes forehead supposed to mean? Is Itachi kind of sorry for what he did? I don´t think so but honestly I can´t think of another possibilty right now.

[HiroInazuma]

Just a thought:

If Naruto is able to master Cero, I mean kamehameha I mean Super Kyuubi Ball I think he might be able to beat Pein.

Itachi: YAY EYES!!! Time to walk sexily over to Sasuke *walks sexily*
Sasuke: OH GOD!!! DONT TAKE MY EYES!!! Wait Itachi there a
Itachi: Oh snap *trips and hits Sasuke's forehead*
LOGGED
Zetsu: Did Itachi just get owned by a log?
Zetsu: Don't underestimate the log
Sasuke: F*** YOU!!! YOU STUPID LOG YOU STEAL EVERYTHING THAT I'VE EVER WANTED!!!
LOGGED
Zetsu: I'm hungry
Zetsu: So am I
ZETSUED

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

On Topic: What is Itachi tapping Sasukes forehead supposed to mean? Is Itachi kind of sorry for what he did? I don´t think so but honestly I can´t think of another possibilty right now.

Hopefully, when we get some dialogue, we will get some clues as what, if anything Itachi says after he presumably falls from exhaustion. Until then, we can only see the image as a symbolic representation of...whatever you want. If you dislike the characters, I am sure you can come up with a meaning that implies something negative; and, if you like the character(s) I am sure you can analyze the image in a positive light. I am sure this is the image Kishimoto meant when he said he would deliver a fight that both Itachi, sasuke and just Naruto fans in general would like. In that respect, he somewhat succeded.

---

Spoiler for Off Topic: FFVII:

btw, FFVII has never been regarded as having a great story, rather it is regarded as being one of the first games that accuratley tells a very cinematic story - i.e. the presentation is more well known and liked than the actual contents of the story, and in many respects only Aeris' moment is regarded as being well done. That is not to say that the game isn't great, it just was never known for a great story (some great charcaters, though).

[Mists]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

@Nine-Tails-Nin

Maybe my opinion would change if I tried to analyze the storytelling. However I highly doubt that even half of the people who say Kishi´s storytelling is getting worse tried to analyze it.
One more thing: To me you really are the first person ever to say FF7´s storytelling is not great.
Ok, sorry for being off topic, I´ll stop discussing about that in this thread, now.

On Topic: What is Itachi tapping Sasukes forehead supposed to mean? Is Itachi kind of sorry for what he did? I don´t think so but honestly I can´t think of another possibilty right now.

I actually analyze it quite a bit as I myself am in a similar field...but also just analyzing all the other amazing stories out there especially HxH. I don't know any FF storylines.

Anyway, I too like to be entertained, but there so much out there that just isn't worth it. For example, you can watch Mortal Kombat Annihilation and be entertained, but that was the biggest waste of my time. Also, the movie Stealth...Dexter in the Dark book which was entertaining but was it worth my time?

Heroes last season finale, really, was that worth my time?

Anyway, the forehead thing is what Itachi used to do to Sasuke when he was little, just to piss him off. But this time he inadvertently does it because he wants his brother's eyes this time but instead just passes out and ends up flicking his brother on the head. Such brotherly love...Just give Itachi an eye for his pain & suffering and resentment! All this time he just wanted eyes!

Why did he kill his clan again? Just for his little bro.......? Huh wha? *shakes head*

[Sakuranbo]

Originally Posted by Hage-bai

You didn't get the memo. This story pre-timeskip has been dubbed the "Uchiha Chronicles". The Sharingan IS the narutoverse. The fancult will never end unfortunately.

I hate being left out of the loop. I sort of forgot about that interview, I can't imagine what Kishimoto has in mind for Sakura, since Naruto is apparently still the same loser as before.