Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No. They used that scene to connect both SG and SG0. There wasn't any implication she was delayed in the original VN either.

So it's essentially another version of the Alpha line technically speaking that occured in this ep?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

So it's essentially another version of the Alpha line technically speaking that occured in this ep?

Most likely.

The "original" alpha world line divergence number was 0.571046% in the original SG VN and anime series (Endless Apoptosis Chapter).
In SG0 VN, the alpha world line divergence number in the Antimonic Dual chapter was 0.571082%.

Of course, this could be different in the anime, since they didn't show the Alpha World Line divergence number and the Beta World Line divergence number seen at the end of the episode is unique to the anime.
But considering the nature of the WL interactions in the original SG, it is safe to conclude that "Kurisu not confessing in time because of a D-mail" is pretty much in another Alpha line, and not a "pre-determined" parameter of the original 0.571046% alpha line.

We need episode 9 to determine how he even got to the alpha world line to begin with, since this is something even the VN can't answer due to the differences with the adaptation.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I'm giving the anime people credit that they respect the general continuity, even when making retcons. Except when it comes to movies and stuff.

You might like or might not like the Deja Vu movie, but it didn't break any established concepts in the original S;G.

[Klashikari]

Actually, it did.

Spoiler for Movie spoilers:

The movie asserts that Okarin doesn't exist anymore because he "shifted" to the R world line due to some Reading Steiner Overload. However, this doesn't make sense for 2 reasons:

1) Assuming Okarin indeed "shifted" world lines, this means that the events of the movie can't occur at all, because Okarin went to another world line, and the lore is thorough about it: there is only 1 world line active at any time, and it isn't about Okarin's perspective.

2) Assuming Okarin "shifted" out, meaning his reading steiner basically consider his existence of impossible with all the memories got thus far, it shouldn't be possible for the world to erase his existence, because the memory overload is all about events of other world lines and so on. This means that there is absolutely no actual event that literally prevent "Okabe Rintarou" to exist, but rather "The world line shifter". If the movie wanted to use that concept, they should have made Okarin amnesiac or unable to discern present events.

Let's not forget that Suzuha was still there when Okarin was "shifting" in and out, which is extremely bizarre since she shouldn't be present when Okarin still exists. She is is supposed to be there oly because of Kurisu if Okarin disappears. In such setup, Suzuha would shift all the time too because of that.

[Jaden]

Well, there is the established concept of people vaguely remembering other world lines.

For the movie, they chose to kinda zoom in on that concept and expand it.

But that's the concept that makes the least sense in S;G. It's basically like a plot device that becomes problematic if it's used too much.

So I didn't like how the movie had that as its theme...but other than that, I liked the content.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Jaden

What bothers me is how they have no idea what switched Okabe to an Alpha worldline to begin with, yet Kurisu seems somewhat confident that sending this D-Mail will "fix" whatever it was. She must know something I don't.

The way I interpreted it was that this Dmail was just to get Okabe back into the Beta worldline, because the prerequisite for doing so is him deleting SERN's info on the Dmail. Stalling her past self kept him from faltering at that crucial moment, since otherwise the episode stated that he couldn't bring himself to do it.

They'll just need to point out why this keeps him from being sent BACK to the Alpha line again, since whoever triggered the change in the first place isn't likely to only test that method a single time and then give up.

[Dengar]

If the other party does not have reading steiner there's not a whole lot they can do.

[GDB]

Why would they need Reading Steiner to continue experiments involving Time Travel if their research is already advanced enough to trigger a world line shift?

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by GDB

Why would they need Reading Steiner to continue experiments involving Time Travel if their research is already advanced enough to trigger a world line shift?

Because they can't notice a world line shift if they don't have someone with Reading Steiner to tell them.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by GDB

Why would they need Reading Steiner to continue experiments involving Time Travel if their research is already advanced enough to trigger a world line shift?

When the worldline changes, your memory is altered to fit the new order of events.... Therefore, the person changing the past will not whether a worldline shift has actually taken place or not.


...Unless they have Reading Steiner.

[HtwoN]

Everybody has Reading Steiner. They just have to awake it.

[Jaden]

It's not completely impossible, for example you could do what SERN did and just parse old newspapers, find some jellymen and figure "oh shit, that was probably us"

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Marina2

Because they can't notice a world line shift if they don't have someone with Reading Steiner to tell them.

Originally Posted by Dengar

When the worldline changes, your memory is altered to fit the new order of events.... Therefore, the person changing the past will not whether a worldline shift has actually taken place or not.


...Unless they have Reading Steiner.

And why would this stop them from continuing to run tests? They wouldn't know whether they'd recognize a change in time or not.

Do you think scientists only test something once and then give up?

Originally Posted by Jaden

It's not completely impossible, for example you could do what SERN did and just parse old newspapers, find some jellymen and figure "oh shit, that was probably us"

They clearly have some way of detecting DMails too, if nothing else. Otherwise Okabe's initial DMail wouldn't have triggered the shift + erasing their data on said DMail wouldn't trigger the shift back.

[erneiz_hyde]

Ah, I knew there are still people that didn't quite get why deleting D-Mail from Echelon would trigger a world shift. You see, it works like this:

SERN actually haven't noticed the D-Mail data that is stored in Echelon immediately. They would found out about it quite sometime later, way after the time period when the story takes place. You ask then, why would SERN send Rounders after the FG Lab if they still haven't found the problematic D-Mail? Of course, time machine! SERN in the future informed the present SERN of the D-Mail's existence. This is why, deleting that D-Mail will prevent future SERN to learn about D-Mails, which in turn prevent the present SERN to know about the FG Lab.

This is important. This concept of changing the future affecting the past and thus the present is how Okabe shifts world lines in SG 0.

[Applehell]

That was an fantastic episode. Definitely the best in the season so far. Sadly Okabe doesn't show any signs of recovery so others will have to keep pushing him

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The changes for this episode were pretty drastic along with the additional scenes, and while I must admit I didn't like some tonal changes here and there, it was indeed a very powerful episode all around, notably the last third.

I just hope they know what they are doing, because the changes also lead to major plot divergence compared to the vn, so if they don't go through them, it will be quite inconsistent.

T...that's quite worrisome.

Hopefully this just the anime taking some liberties with the material, but having everything merge back together in the end.

Originally Posted by Klad

Hope this does not mark the end of role of Kurisu in this season lol

Well technically she already has role. Amadeus certainly not real Kurisu, but she undeniably her real memories and personal traits. That's why it really easy to end up treating as the original despite the situation.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

SERN in the future informed the present SERN of the D-Mail's existence. This is why, deleting that D-Mail will prevent future SERN to learn about D-Mails, which in turn prevent the present SERN to know about the FG Lab.

This is important. This concept of changing the future affecting the past and thus the present is how Okabe shifts world lines in SG 0.

That's not possible, otherwise, Okarin wouldn't have been able to prevent the rounders raid at all prior any world line shift, because the rounders would know about the time machine all the time.

It is explictely stated that Okarin could prevent the raid completely, not just avoiding them.
The reason why the rounders raid them is because Moeka and/or Braun realized how far they went with the time machine development (partly because you can hear nearly everything they say from outside of the Braun tube shop) and also because they decided to publicly announce its existence.

This is particularly true after Moeka gave up on the IBN5100: the rounders stopped coming after them, but they were still on the alpha world line, since as you said, SERN will discover the D-mail in ECHELON database at some point, leading to the dystopia.
As far as I can tell, the attractor field beta will have the rounders capturing the FG members at some point, and usually, it is extremely early because they weren't exactly discreet. That's why every D-mail cancellation delay the raid and Mayuri's death as well, but even when the raid is totally prevented, Mayuri still has a certain "deadline" whereas SERN still have their dystopia (meaning Kurisu and co are still abducted, but a bit later, most likely when the D-mail is really found out by SERN).

The reason why the world line dramatically change is that, when the dystopia is prevented, Suzuha doesn't come back to the present with a half baked time machine (Daru died pretty early in the Alpha world line). Therefore, there is no "crash" on the radio kaikan with the FG203. Ergo, Nakabachi's seminar, and by extention, Kurisu's death are back to the world parameters. Incidentally it will lead to WW3 instead, so Suzuha is different and come back to 2000 prior her mission in 2010, leading to the "real" John Titor, which in turn inspire Kurisu and Nakabachi about the time machine.

This is the actual "change that affect the future, which affects the past" part that shifted Okarin from Alpha to Beta.

[erneiz_hyde]

I'm not sure which part you are saying is impossible. I see no problem in SERN knowing about the time machine all the time because as you say, the trigger for the raid is only if SERN learns that the FG Lab have gone too far in their research and making it public. Okabe got the doll and the red jelly picture before the actual raid happened, suggesting SERN isn't trying to capture them at all cost, only when necessary.

SERN could not have known about the FG lab time machine other than from the future. Otherwise deleting a mail data when they have already learned about it at the present day won't change the world line.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I'm not sure which part you are saying is impossible. I see no problem in SERN knowing about the time machine all the time because as you say, the trigger for the raid is only if SERN learns that the FG Lab have gone too far in their research and making it public. Okabe got the doll and the red jelly picture before the actual raid happened, suggesting SERN isn't trying to capture them at all cost, only when necessary.

I'm saying it is impossible because SERN needs the FG trio to complete the time machine which is necessary to create their dystopia. It doesn't make sense for SERN not to capture them immediately if they learn from the future about them and the fact they need the time machine to secure a future like that.
This means that even when Okarin & co avoided the rounders raid (certain WL and every world line after fixing Moeka's D-mail), they will be captured in the near future, which is tied to the first D-mail discovery in ECHELON. The fact Kurisu is the mother of the time machine is pretty much a permanent parameter in the attractor field alpha, regardless of what the rounders do in the present.
If you really think SERN learned about the time machine from the future, then the world line becomes a dead end, because SERN in the present would know about complete time machine theory, leading to a complete different world line where the cause would no longer be the first d-mail but the message sent by SERN from the future. Ergo, deleting the first d-mail wouldn't prevent SERN to dominate the world, since they would have the full theory in their hands. In fact, in such scenario, they don't even need the FG members at all.

Plainly speaking, their capture is integral part of the attractor field alpha, but it happens much faster in certain WL because Moeka and/or Braun directly contacted their HQ, instead of SERN realizing only when the first D-mail. In other words, what I'm saying is that the raid is a "coincidental" occurence that allow the capture of the FG members much earlier. However, even without that raid occuring, the FG members are fated to be captured and help SERN to finish the time machine.
In a nutshell: it is impossible for SERN to learn about the time machine from the future, otherwise, it will cause the FG members not to be required for their plans, effectively changing the whole WL altogether. This would lead to a loop paradox similar to the Lab Member Badge: the badge is from the past, then reached Suzuha in the future, but then because of Suzuha's time travel, the badge is actually created based on the future, making it "self sustaining". In SERN case, deleting the first D-mail would NOT shift the world line back to beta, because SERN learning about the time machine from the future would mean they can self sustain that fact in history, meaning they can create their dystopia without the lab mems, and still send an agent/message to themselves again to maintain that loop. Hence impossible in SG context.

Regarding the threats, I'm pretty certain it is either Moeka and/or Braun trying to avoid that situation. Both of them care about the lab members, but not to the point of disobeying their superiors. It is consistent with their characterization, and they would be much more straightforward if it was something SERN wanted (which doesn't make sense since SERN want to be first in the time machine race for obvious reasons).

SERN could not have known about the FG lab time machine other than from the future. Otherwise deleting a mail data when they have already learned about it at the present day won't change the world line.

No, it will. Simply put the first D-mail discovery is the proximate cause of SERN learning about the FG activities. As such, it is because of the first D-mail SERN will order their capture (which will always happen even in WL where Moeka etc aren't aware of the time machine), leading to the future and past being like that in alpha.
As I stated, the World Line shift is caused by multiple changes caused by the deletion of the first d-mail, and those prevent the Alpha world line to even occur. The moment the present change, it does affect the future, which in turn affects the past.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Not, it will. Simply put the first D-mail discovery is the proximate cause of SERN learning about the FG activities. As such, it is because of the first D-mail SERN will order their capture (which will always happen even in WL where Moeka etc aren't aware of the time machine), leading to the future and past being like that in Beta.

That simply doesn't make sense. It's like you found your brother holding your cup jelly, eat it in front of you, and then he dares ask "what cup jelly"?
No, for deleting that D-Mail to cause a worldline shift SERN's FIRST source of information of it must come from the future.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

That simply doesn't make sense. It's like you found your brother holding your cup jelly, eat it in front of you, and then he dares ask "what cup jelly"?
No, for deleting that D-Mail to cause a worldline shift SERN's FIRST source of information of it must come from the future.

As I stated above, this doesn't make sense at all, because
1) SERN want to be first in the time machine race so no one else would stop them. This means that it doesn't make sense for the rounders not to raid the lab even in world lines where Moeka was stopped. In fact, it doesn't make sense for SERN not to always capture them at the exact same date if they knew in advance about them. However, the story proved the initial raid is affected by the current context of the WL. Ergo, both events are separate: the initial raid of the rounders is basically a seperate instance of SERN trying to get them, but should it never happens, another capture will proceed.
This is contradictory with your claim, because if SERN knew from the future about them, there is no way for the rounders to miss the initial first raid at all, but it is proved in WL after Moeka's dmail being cancelled.

2) if SERN learns about the time machine from the future, you effectively changed the cause of them knowing about it from the first place. Ergo, you are in the very same loop paradox as the lab member badge. This would stop the first dmail to even be the initila trigger of SERN time machine. In that situation, deleting the first d-mail would not cause a world line shift, because SERN already know about the time machine from the future, which means they can guarantee that fact by themselves.

As I said, if the first d-mail is deleted, the future will immediately change because the real capture would never occur, SERN would never establish their dystopia, which affect Suzuha's actions, which in turn change the past. The fact the past was changed is the very reason why there is a world line shift to begin with.
As such, what I mean is that the first dmail is the sole trigger for all of these changes. It doesn't go with a loop inside with SERN telling that to their past selves, otherwise, you are going for a severe paradox.