2012-03-18, 13:19 | Link #28161 | |
Dribble.....SHOOTOH!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I think in that sort of high-stress, horrifying situation, it'd be easy for any of those three to take a note like that personally. |
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2012-03-18, 13:47 | Link #28162 |
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@rogerpepitone:
No, it was an awkward line to translate, and I didn't do a great job with it. This is just off the top of my head, but maybe something like this would be closer: "Did you really think I'd just sit around like an idiot, waiting for you to barge in here? This intellectual night has no place for someone as violent and crude as you. Imagine the look on your parents' faces, to have raised a child this stupid. Oh yes, I remember. They had the same blank, stupid stare you're wearing now. And now, their bellies are full in the land of sweets!"
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2012-03-18, 14:23 | Link #28163 |
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Regarding the letter Jessica finds:
This letter is indeed very odd, and I think it's inclusion was actually pretty crafty. After all, EP2 is the only time the humans are given ANY impression that Beatrice has a definite location on the island where they might find her - it would make sense for someone to investigate that room, and the letter is open enough to indeed refer to any of the cousins. Regarding whether or not Yasu can kill people Ehhhh ... I'd personally argue that no person such as Yasu even existed before Requiem, anyway, and the fact remains that at least in the context of the fictions, Shannon is portrayed as the sort of girl (and I pull no punches here because Alliance more or less confirms her as a culprit) who's willing to fake her own death, shoot her fiancee in the face, and get all pissy because Battler can't remember something he said when he was, like, 12. In addition to her timid, "Oh no, we just held hands and talked" meido persona. And this was how Ryukishi chose to portray her, for four whole episodes. What I'm saying is, regardless of whether you wanna think Piece!Shannon can be a murderer, there are six dead Ushiromiya's with candy in their gullets, so unless their deaths were a heroic sacrifice to save us all from the candy-spawning explosive-stomach-flu, there's a fox in the hen house among the humans. And NONE of the 18 (except, maybe, Kinzo) are very openly displayed to be terrible, serial murder type people. |
2012-03-18, 14:45 | Link #28164 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Prime was a murder game gone wrong. By means of this murder game Yasu/Beatrice committed fantasy (fake) murders, yet by some accident the fantasy became reality. Because of this, "Beatrice" became a real murderer in Prime-Yasu's own mind, which is expressed in her writing (necessarily post-incident of course): It's no accident that the fictions are nonsense as a Mystery when it comes to motive. Quote:
There's a dualism to Yasu: She both believes in magic and knows it's a trick. This dualism is expressed by the interaction of the two different Beatrices in the "Wonderful display of magic" scene during EP6. The important point is that a "trick" to one person is "magic" to another, and Yasu firmly understands this relationship. She's not going to just forget to account for the "trick" side of things and just kill people expecting them to come back to life; she would have a plan to "resurrect" them, hence the idea of fake murders. Quote:
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2012-03-18, 15:05 | Link #28165 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In fiction everyone can kill. The problem is "Would she be capable to do it in real life also?" The game implied in the end she wasn't the real culprit in Prime. To use Kyrie's words is because she's a murderer who didn't get a chance (because on Prime something happened that stopped her from killing people) or because she's not capable/didn't plan to be a murderer? |
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2012-03-18, 15:20 | Link #28166 | |
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Actually this makes it seem that her reason for writing the message bottles (IF they were written post-incident), were not to protect the real culprit, but instead to be forgiven for her "sins", as she views herself as the real culprit, although she never really killed anyone (neither ordered someone to kill another). Well, of course Ikukoshkanontrice is required for this, as i doubt she would have enough time to write 2 or 3 message bottles in 1 day, after most people were dead already. |
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2012-03-18, 16:54 | Link #28167 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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And I think you're on the right track, but, as with many things in Umineko, I believe that the truth is not so simple that you can say it is "entirely X" or "entirely Y." In other words, while what you said is (most likely) part of the equation, I'm sure that there is more to it.
After all, you left out something EXTREMELY crucial: Maria was not the only one who tried to invite others into the Mariage Sorciere alliance. Here's a scene from Beatrice's perspective, after Battler failed to remember his sin and so she suspended the game and left: "......As I thought, .........from the very beginning, magic should only have been used within Mariage Sorciere." ".........Seems so. ...Maria also, ......thought that with Ange." "The witches' alliance is you and I. It started with those two. ......Mixing in other people was the first mistake..." ".........It's just so fun. ...We wanted to add someone close to us into that circle. And we wished that the witches' alliance would grow very large, that everyone would be able to use fun magic together, and that we'd all be happy." "However, .........only you and I were able to understand magic after all." "We are, ......the only witches who met with a miracle in this world. .........By now, as long as Maria has Beato, no one else is needed." "............Me too. As long as you are here, I don't need anyone else anymore." "In the very first moment that Mariage Sorciere was formed, ......it was already complete." "...............That is...so. That is truly so......" It had been a witches' alliance to make everyone happy together with magic. ......I wonder when it got this screwed up? What did I want to do when I started this game? ......I can't really remember even that. No, I may remember, ...but that's a feeling I now wish to throw away to the far side of oblivion. ".........It's alright. Why not forget everything? Mariage Sorciere, with just the two of us. ......We will acknowledge each other. And no one will hurt us. So we won't be hurt. We won't cry. Let's forget everything. ............Hey, Beato. ......We are...eternity......" "........................Maria..................uu uuuuuu, .........uuuuuuuuuuuuu...!!" There was also a scene in EP7 where Beatrice was with Maria, and she mentioned that while she loved spending time with Maria, she still wanted to invite a certain other person there... And don't forget that Maria also wanted to invite Rosa. I mean, I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. Even if you think it's stupid, both Maria and Beatrice suffered equally immense amounts of pain from trying to invite others. Quote:
There was also Rosa, who, while she was left behind by her husband and certainly hated what he had done to her, made it clear that she still hoped that maybe they might be reunited... I remember thinking that this sounded a lot like Beatrice potentially... I think there was probably something interesting in each of the things the 'victims' said, but... My memory of it is pretty blurry. Does anyone else remember something notable from these scenes? Quote:
"R And it really was just that. She had no intention to create the perfect crime from the very beginning. And that is how, even without turning the chessboard over, we return to the question „Why did the culprit send a letter announcing the incident?“. If somebody wanted to commit the perfect crime, it would have been better not to send an announcement and to murder everyone in their sleep. In the end it shows that the culprit had the internal longing to be discovered. K No matter how you look at it, it seems like she was already accepting death. Both the letters before the incident and the message bottles seemed very much like a will. R While there was enough desperation to actually carry out the incident, there was also the wish for somebody to stop her. Many criminals sending out announcements of their crimes might actually be screaming „Somebody, please stop me!“. Even though of course they can not be forgiven. K That is why she painted herself as the sole culprit and wanted for Battler to solve it, right?!" Quote:
Last edited by Toku; 2012-03-18 at 17:12. |
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2012-03-18, 17:45 | Link #28168 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Fake murders aside anyone consider that Yasuda wanted to make a catbox? That as long the truth is shut within the catbox that any future can exist. That even contradicting dreams can exist. Kanon and Shannon were talking about it at the during EP8 after Ange solves their riddles.
That Yasuda through Beatrice intended that everything on Rokenjima gets shut up within a catbox so that everyone can be happy with any future that is possible. It has been mentioned a few times that Beatrice intends to open the door to the golden land at the end. In addition that Yasuda seems highly inspired with the witch epitaph as she created her plan. Quote:
For example in the first twilight of the first game, that it was implied that Shannon hid among the bodies. That was immensely risky and everything could have been botched quite easily. I could see that Yasuda places the letter while thinking Jessica with her extremely violent attitude would be most likely to barge in. |
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2012-03-18, 18:43 | Link #28169 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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The first to be killed was Eva. Random things that can be interesting in her words are: Quote:
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Then there's her whole attempt to 'choose things for George'... which can mirror how Yasuda felt controlled by fate. Interesting points, though they don't really refers to Yasuda are that George here says he doesn't want to be the head while in EP 7 he seemed to be tempted by the idea (or maybe it's just me) and that he insists all Eva did for him was for her own end denying she did it out of love for him... though he says he wants to become a parent like her. Personally, though I think Eva might have had the wrong ideas for her son, I don't think in her actions she was lead solely by her own ambitions. George talks about how hard for him it was to study so much, but in the whole discussion is mentioned how Eva and Hideyoshi tried to help him through all this too, from paying fees for teachers to searching things that were easier for him to learn to going to extra lessons with him. It's interesting because George seems to overlook the nice things his parents did to help him in that moment... although he probably knows them and this can match with how, in a moment of desperation Yasuda might have overlooked the nice points of everyone and 'planned to murder them' (at the end of EP 6 we see Kanon remembering the nice sides of everyone). Quote:
Oh and there's this bit about the gameboard. Quote:
We've Kyrie next who underlines how giving up on love is crawling through hell (note taht EP 7 Kyrie didn't seem desperate about Rudolf's death) Quote:
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Then there's Rosa whose situation looks a lot like Yasuda even in the fact she knows that overcoming the trial might not mean she'll have the man she loves back but exactly because she has to go through a trial she can't let go of him. And even through she tries to let her feeling to rest she can't. Quote:
Then we've Maria. She doesn't say much apart from: Quote:
Hum... I don't really know what Natsuhi might have said that was meaningful. She just underlined how painful it was to wait far from her husband and how a perfect wife should be. Though Beato's acceptance of her love for Battler might mirror the fact Yasuda was forced to realize her love for Battler was stronger than the one for George... though there's another interesting thing. On her own Beato couldn't kill Natsuhi. Battler had to help her. This might underline the fact that Yasuda might have considered killing someone on Prime but actually wasn't capable to pull it out successfully. |
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2012-03-18, 19:55 | Link #28170 | ||||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Spoiler for Earlier post by GreyZone:
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Also, while I'm slow to say "don't read too much into it", 'cause this IS Umineko, the sentiment of a killer who simply didn't get the chance is a sort of blanket statement about all of the humans. Hell, Jessica or even Godha are also murderers who just didn't have the motive and opportunity to murder people before someone went and asploded the island they were on. Spoiler for stuff:
I wonder about Ryukishi, sometimes. That's all I can really say to that. Quote:
... well, it also accomplishes theories about the entire family plus servants taking the gold to live wonderful lives of pleasure and splendor in palaces in Hawaii because screw Ange she'll be fine. Quote:
Last edited by Kealym; 2012-03-18 at 21:59. |
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2012-03-18, 20:16 | Link #28171 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Maybe she meant she wanted to invite him once he would come back only he didn't... or that she wanted him to enthusiastically take part to her game only things turned sour (geez, Beato, I wonder why... it's not like you're murdering his family or something placing him in a lot of pain, tricking him and forcing his sister to live a miserable life... oh, ops, actually you are...). Quote:
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As for the adults... I don't really think she cared about them. Though it's possible she didn't care about George and Co either. There are people who think that hey, it'll be cool if when they attempt suicide they'll also drag in a huge amount of people so they won't die alone so they kill their whole family, cause the building they live to explode or some other incident. Twisted but sadly it happens. |
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2012-03-18, 20:32 | Link #28172 | |
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However, I don't think that's the difficult part. The real trick was getting Eva and Hideyoshi to lie about how they left the family conference on the previous night.
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2012-03-18, 20:41 | Link #28173 | ||
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Well, it's always possible that ... they went to bed earlier than the rest. I think the hard part is getting Hideyoshi to lie about Shannon being in the shed. |
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2012-03-18, 20:44 | Link #28174 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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Alright, please don't jump on me, because I posted this without reading your entire post, but one thing jumped out on me:
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2012-03-18, 20:46 | Link #28175 | |
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If Eva got tired and went to bed (leaving the other siblings to decide the fate of the family without her), is it really likely that Rosa would choose to stay?
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2012-03-18, 22:19 | Link #28176 | ||
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Oh, whoops - that was me quoting a post by jjblue1. I've edited the post to be correct. To answer, though, a Yasu-Culprit theory works as well as any -other- culprit theory for Prime, I guess, though I think she didn't kill anyone. I DO think she's culpable, it's just impossible to say how much. Quote:
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2012-03-19, 10:32 | Link #28177 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2009
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A more casual, aggressive writer with less of a penchant for cleverness mockingly derides everyone for wasting their time on that "intellectual night." Just needs airquotes around it to sound sarcastic, in fact. Quote:
I think Chronotrig's point is that it's unusual that the First Twilights can be read both ways, and possibly important. Will's answers work and are functional. But are they the only, or even the right, answer? Quote:
If you were willing to commit a crime, and perhaps if you even intended to commit a crime accepting all its consequences, but through contrivance of circumstance the crime becomes unnecessary and you never go through with it, are you still guilty? Legally, of course, you are not guilty of the crime itself (you might still be guilty of a conspiracy, but we'll leave the technicality aside). To use Kyrie's example while taking her story as true, she didn't murder Asumu. But she clearly feels guilty as if she had. Assuming she isn't lying, this guilt is irrational; she has nothing to apologize for in terms of actual actions she took. However... is she not perhaps right to feel guilt? As she sees it, had Asumu not coincidentally died, she would have killed her. She was resolved to that. It was going to happen. In a way, it's like she did murder her... and got away with it, since something intervened to do the job for her. Not all people want to get away with it. The charge of the message bottle to "find the truth" certainly seems to me like the words of a person who doesn't want to get away with it, but may have for one reason or another. The catbox may be unintentional, but to BATTLER, it's also something which permits Beatrice to exist, so he seeks to preserve it for her sake. It's a selfish motive, yes, but from his perspective it's understandable. However, Beatrice's goals or desires may not be the same anymore as her creator's at this point. Quote:
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2012-03-19, 12:08 | Link #28178 | |||
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Couldn't he just be so appalled by the sight of everyone's mangled faces that he did not pay much attention to Shannon expect taking a glance on on hers fingers. Shannon doing something like Jigsaw in Saw where she wears an excessive amount of bloody makeup could easily mistake her for a corpse considering that she is among corpses. Quote:
Besides Will the detective said that it was risky to pull off the trick. Yasuda could not really entirely predict how George would react. It was very possible that he would enter the shed in grief and notice that she is not dead. |
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2012-03-19, 12:20 | Link #28179 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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So this would mean that Clair =/= Beatrice, because Beatrice could control George's actions as long as they were not "out of character". ...... Ahhhhhhh now i get it! Clair is the Piece!Yasu from the games! She has nothing to do with Beatrice's Meta-Battle with Battler. This would explain why she seems so different and why not simply Beatrice was used instead of Clair. |
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2012-03-19, 13:25 | Link #28180 | ||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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The EP2 first twilight was just a random example though - my point is that despite most of the characters seeming like mostly decent enough people, we have a lot of corpses to account for, so somebody on the gameboard is being presented as capable of some rather wacky antics. As for it being the "right" answer, most of what we've been given leads to some form of "Shannon and Kanon" being the "intended" answer. Of course other options will be functional, too, but wasn't this covered a bunch in EP5, with the cheese riddle, and anti-Natsuhi conspiracy? Quote:
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What with the author theory, that was a real standout line. One the one hand, he's kinda right - if we take her confession to the adults in EP7 to be true-ish, she was prepared to lose by coincidence or bad luck. At the same time, since the entire thing is written .... well, it's like, George will surely never enter that shed, just like the police will never come. If the author doesn't want to take the story that way, after all. |
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