Medaka Box [Manga]

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Zen is the lancer/sidekick to Medaka's shonen hero, he is not important to the narrative and the spotlight avoids him. Zen fans liked him for the similar reason why fans like Kumagawa, he is the underdog in the truest sense that he is up against the most OP characters in the series.

But unlike Kumagawa, Zen is totally fine with being Medaka's lapdog and have no intention of becoming something independent from his Medaka-chan. Every times he put up a fight against her, he just prove his loyalty to her even more.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

But unlike Kumagawa, Zen is totally fine with being Medaka's lapdog and have no intention of becoming something independent from his Medaka-chan. Every times he put up a fight against her, he just prove his loyalty to her even more.

Well, yeah. The one time he does he basically crushes her spirit completely.

Something interesting about the relationship between Zen and Medaka. Nearly every major change in her personality is due to something Zen does. In fact, pretty much everything about her is a direct result of her relationship with Zen. So despite the fact that on the outside it looks like Zen is dependent on her, it's the other way around.

[Diamond English]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

Zen is the lancer/sidekick to Medaka's shonen hero, he is not important to the narrative and the spotlight avoids him. Zen fans liked him for the similar reason why fans like Kumagawa, he is the underdog in the truest sense that he is up against the most OP characters in the series.

So true this point about Zen's relevance to the story. I feel as if a lot of the major events in Medeka Box would of happened if he was their or not.....or was I watching Big Bang theory and stole that train of thought.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ustv/s21...rrelevant.html

I think Zen does get a bum deal at times considering he was the closest person to being a reflection of humanity due to his strength,humility and character plus being surrounded by OP monster schoolkids must of been tough. He got no medal, but he got Medakaiju so he got rewarded somewhat

[ccie20012]

Zen x Medaka - a pair.
I not about final Zen x Medaka (as a reward). Although it is also nice.
I that it was designed from the outset.
All the plot without Zen x Medaka looks not like that. I'm always struck by the idea to break this pair. It's like breaking a water molecule.
Zen give meaning life for Medaka.
Medaka is goal for Zen.
All other combat skills/knowledge/number of defeated enemies have no meaning. In the end the author just laughed over stereotypes shonen depriving heroes any magical powers.

[Guernsey]

Medaka and Zen are toxic for each other that was pretty much the point of their arcs. Medaka is asexual being who values everyone but values no one and Zenkichi is a human who dedicates himself to her yet she doesn't care about him. There is also the fact that out of all the people in the series, Zen hurts Medaka the most emotionally just by being there and controlling everything she does. I'll give this to Zen, it wasn't entirely his fault as Medaka was an impressionable looking for a purpose life and Zen gave it to by accident at the age of two. Their relationship is parasitic and destructive but is also shallow and meaningless. Shonen Heroes make terrible love interests in general.

As for the spoof elements in Medaka Box, it was never about the fights as much as it was about the philosophy as well as the displaying the mechanics of how shonen works. It crushed the wish fulfillment of its while posing questions to its readers. As shonen battle battle manga it doesn't stand on its own but it was never a battle as much as it was a slice of life series with psychological metaphors. Unfortunately, it works against the series as the metafictional became the only way to explain the narrative and the story.

[lickere]

Guernsey, i do think that at the beginning it was a destructive relationship, but i like that nisio show how both of them become independent of each other at the end.
i think, show how the philosophy of every character change was the center of medaka box.

[ccie20012]

This is the story as a man seeks love princess (even such a strange and capricious as Medaka). It's a beautiful story and a wonderful ending.
Just all used to blunt the heroes of manga/anime who is harem-center (one man + n girls), but the characters do not notice their love. Zen is one of the few characters who does not act like an idiot.
He does not want change object of love to more simple target .
He did not have affairs with other girls. He is honest with self. He confesses his love. He makes every effort to become equal to his beloved.

[Lupus753]

Originally Posted by ccie20012

He makes every effort to become equal to his beloved.

It's a shame he failed miserably. At the end, he was far less powerful, beloved (for some reason), and worked for years to get a position far lower than the one Medaka was born to. Medaka said, near the end, that he "finally managed to surpass her in the end", but it comes off as a complete non-sequiter with no relation to what happened before.

[Guernsey]

Highly doubt anyone can keep up with her especially when you consider that Medaka will always end up on top. I do believe that Zenkichi has surpassed Medaka in one thing, he kind of knows how to relate to other humans even if he doesn't like them. Medaka by contrast couldn't relate to other humans but Zenkichi could and he has surpassed her in that aspect.

[Ruki0089]

I`m just hoping that Zenkichi would become the MC of his own manga
maybe the title is "The Zero Factor : Zenkichi`s Downfall"
maybe the 1st arc about where Zenkichi try to correct Medaka with fight....

[ccie20012]

It's a shame he failed miserably.

In my opinion this is a clear win. He achieved everything he could to achieve the common man.

- Zenkichi's Student Council (President)
- Jet Black Bride Arc /a very important role and confession/
- Final Boss (Iihiko)
- Hard work and top position on Kurokami Group (without magic)
- unconditional marriage to his beloved Medaka

What else could get in this manga?

[Fwarlord]

To every normal man, there is a little something called "pride". And a man who live his whole life under the vast influence of his wife and her family would eventually loose it. Just like a concubine of a king, who has everything a normal who woman dream of, but freedom and humanity right.

[ccie20012]

It's sort of a discrimination That is Zen must choose a girl "weaker" than himself?
"vast influence of her husband" - it's ok?
This is despite the fact that Zen is not going to play the role of a "housewife".
Why not view it as them equal relationship (from point view Zen and Medaka).

And why Zen should abandon the Medaka?
He is absolutely right that is not going to lose.

"Zen choose please a more simple girl. Medaka is too difficult. Medaka is not for you."
And actually for whom? I may be wrong, but I think a subtext in these words.

[Guernsey]

I guess it is just due to insecurities and other macho stuff. If you had stayed with a person who is always better than you, wouldn't feel the tiniest bit insecure around them? Zenkichi wants to feel to needed, he wants Medaka to be the girl he wants but she cannot be the girl he wants. He realized it in the last arc that Medaka is her own person and not his fantasy girl but he still loves albeit in a mroe mature manner.

[XFire]

You guys are making this awfully complicated. Their relationship went like this.

Zen and Medaka meet, and because of an innocent comment Medaka becomes fixated on helping others. Also he friend zones her (God, I always crack up so hard at that part....).

They become childhood friends, and Medaka does her Superwoman thing while Zen gets dragged along. Zen gradually comes to admire Medaka, but for some reason (I seriously don't get this) he decides those feelings are evil or something and instead decides to settle for being her anchor to normality.

The above an the adverse effect on them both as Zen has essentially friend zoned himself (despite Medaka still being in love with him) and Medaka becomes more and more dependent on Zen to maintain her humanity.

During the Flask Plan arc, Medaka gets brainwashed into abandoning her ideal of helping others, and Zen.... actually doesn't give a shit, he just pissed that Medaka is being an ass. Afterwards he manages to convince her that she has to be happy as well, or everyone else will feel unhappy about her being unhappy.

ShitScrew (Kumagawa) shows up and goes Diablous ex Machina on everyone, and this marks the point where Medaka begins to leave her humanity behind. This change is solidified when Ajimu appears, and Medaka now believes that she has to live for others, and is essentially abandoning her sense of self to do so.

Zen realizes that his innocent comment all those years ago has set Medaka on the road to hell, and also comes to terms with his feelings for Medaka. Shit goes down and he basically breaks her out of her delusion by pointing out that she is distancing herself from those she is trying to save. This essentially breaks her, since it destroyed her sense of purpose.

And here we reach the turning point. Medaka begs Zen to tell her what to do. Zen realizes if he confesses his feelings now, she'd focus on being the perfect girlfriend for him with the same zeal she did when trying to become the perfect savior. He promptly rejects that idea because it would erase the real Medaka, and instead tells her to find her own purpose like everyone else.

And then during the Black Wedding arc the two finally confess to each other and get engaged. After which Medaka hilariously distances herself from him because of tradition (second favorite scene after the initial friend zone).

And.... that's it. Their relationship is solidified at this point, and neither of them waver at all in their feelings. It continues on until they finally get married.

A few final things. First, about him and Medaka being unequal because of Medaka's abilities, both of them lost their abilities as they grew older. Second, the whole reason that Zen spent ten years becoming a high-level member of the Flask Plan is so they could be on even footing. Neither of them is going to eclipse the other. Remember that Zen had two chances to have Medaka all to himself if he wanted. First when he defeated her in the election. Second, when she basically asked him to come with her to take over the company. He refused both so they could be together properly as equals.

[Lupus753]

I was displeased with the ending because it seemed that Zenkichi didn't rise to her level, but rather she fell to his. Which is a very shallow victory. Medaka said she was impressed that he rose up in the company, but it seemed insincere. Like she was saying, "I'm impressed that you spent a decade to get a position I could've obtained in a week, while I'm still higher-ranked than you'll ever be". It was so infuriating.

Then, Zenkichi says to himself, "While I was climbing in her company, she was thinking of how to restore the moon. Just like high school, it shows the great disparity between us". He tried to catch up with her for the whole series, but gave up when he realized how impossible that was. That's why the ending was such a shaggy dog story to me.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lupus753

I was displeased with the ending because it seemed that Zenkichi didn't rise to her level, but rather she fell to his. Which is a very shallow victory. Medaka said she was impressed that he rose up in the company, but it seemed insincere. Like she was saying, "I'm impressed that you spent a decade to get a position I could've obtained in a week, while I'm still higher-ranked than you'll ever be". It was so infuriating.

Then, Zenkichi says to himself, "While I was climbing in her company, she was thinking of how to restore the moon. Just like high school, it shows the great disparity between us". He tried to catch up with her for the whole series, but gave up when he realized how impossible that was. That's why the ending was such a shaggy dog story to me.

Well, you could look at it that way. Of course, you could also bring up the fact that everything that Medaka has ever done is a direct result of Zen, and that she's seemingly incapable of functioning without him telling her what to do. Or you could argue it was the other way around and Medaka just dragged him all over the place the entire time. Or any one of a dozen other interpretations that all basically equate to what Shiranui said in the first chapter: "What an unhealthy relationship".

Alternatively, you could accept the fact that the two of them are deliriously happy and in love with each other and move on. Which is kind of what I did.

[ccie20012]

Of course, you could also bring up the fact that everything that Medaka has ever done is a direct result of Zen, and that she's seemingly incapable of functioning without him telling her what to do. Or you could argue it was the other way around and Medaka just dragged him all over the place the entire time.

It is important that these two things are not contradictory.
Overall, I totally agree - especially with the last sentence.

[Wolfenstein]

Originally Posted by Lupus753

I was displeased with the ending because it seemed that Zenkichi didn't rise to her level, but rather she fell to his. Which is a very shallow victory. Medaka said she was impressed that he rose up in the company, but it seemed insincere. Like she was saying, "I'm impressed that you spent a decade to get a position I could've obtained in a week, while I'm still higher-ranked than you'll ever be". It was so infuriating.

Then, Zenkichi says to himself, "While I was climbing in her company, she was thinking of how to restore the moon. Just like high school, it shows the great disparity between us". He tried to catch up with her for the whole series, but gave up when he realized how impossible that was. That's why the ending was such a shaggy dog story to me.

I really understand your feelings, because such is a possible interpretation, and shows a lack of tightness in the plot that Nisio's other series, such as Monogatari, do not have, while still maintaining Nisio's trademark non-sensicality.

I, for one, was ultimately pleased because at the very least, Zenkichi's character arc of maturing from a child to an adult was kept mostly intact. He won by simply accepting what his limits are, something reflected in his Zero; Model Hitoyoshi, which allowed him to perceive his own limits.

Maybe he wouldn't ever surpass Medaka in her game, given that she's all too perfect, so he surpassed her in his own.
The Zenkichi who rejected eloping with her is one who realizes that he couldn't have gone on like that, without his independence, as if he were a kid. He was having fun in his Student Council, so he didn't want to leave yet. And that was when she realizes how far ahead he had gone from her. Because he understood enough about himself that he was willing to part and grow-up.

And that's where Zenkichi was always stronger in -- he just understands, and he tells you he understands in a way that you can understand. A quality reflective of him being the best potential user of Styles in the series, not to mention why the "personality" of Parasite Seeing was compatible with his.

So, to me, I'm fine with him not winning in her game, personally, because I think what you said he did to have even more value. Yes, absolutely , Zenkichi is someone working a desk job while Medaka fixes moons -- but at the same time, Zenkichi's victory is to me an indicative of something much more valuable.

Just my interpretation.

[Lupus753]

I was confused because Medaka talked of him "surpassing" her. And yet, the thing he was better at (connecting to other people) was something he was better at since day one. "Surpass" means to start off weaker and become better - not to start better and then continue being better. With Medaka's words, it's like a rich man telling a homeless man that the poor have it easier than the rich because they don't pay taxes. You just want to punch that guy.

I was angry because it really felt like the story was building to the complete opposite, only to not do so, Nisio basically saying, "Sorry about that, but this guy will always be a loser". Sure, it's unexpected, and maybe you could call it a deconstruction of something (though, I think this manga could never decide whether it wanted to deconstruct something or play it agonizingly straight), but that makes it no less frustrating. Just because something's brilliant doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea.