[Mai Otome] Episode 24 Discussion/Poll

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Retsoor

Kieli, I am quite sure that neither was a loophole being used nor that Nagi premeditated on this. Nina did not materialize at all in the episode, not even when she ascended the steps on the Harmonium, and it forcibly materializes you if at all possible. Granted, we can't be sure if Nina can suppress the effect if she knows it's coming, but there's no reason she would've done so. Nina is now acting purely as the Player.

This is where it gets confusing. I'm assuming that, every time she has to play the Harmonium, it needs to recognise her and her nanomachines before she can access it. It's possible that Nagi knew, whatever happened to his Otome, the damage would already be done. The Harmonium would be opened. Therefore, Nina has outlived her purpose. Wouldn't anyone be able to play the Harmonium at that point as long as they knew the song? I am assuming that, in order to harness the FULL power of the Harmonium, Nina still needs the nanomachines and her GEM. Why would Nagi allow that power to be lessened? Even if he still controlled Nina through her emotions, she'd be less effective. Or maybe that no longer even matters. *shrug* I'm just throwing out some possible thoughts. I guess we won't know the answers until the final eps.

Sunrise had such a good track record regarding English in this series so it's oddly annoying to me that they used columns as opposed to pillars. Column is more alike to military units or architectural pieces while pillar can as well denote metaphorical support.

Agreed. I wasn't really happy with this change either. I don't know if it's a genuine mistake or a conscious effort on the writers' part.

A pity we didn't see how Nina's disposition would've changed between Sergey giving her a good rogering and her plunging into determinated despair.

Yes, that was a bit fast, wasn't it? It would've been good to see more of a flowing transition regarding Nina's changed perspective. Would she have become a more world-weary Nina or a more determined, strong Nina?

Originally Posted by imperialmog

Maybe what they could do with Nagi as well is do the experiment we mentioned in testing what happens when nanomachines are used in men. Especially if castration occured beforehand.

Oh you mean a squirming, twitching suffering Nagi? Nah the castration might nullify the effects. He'd be a eunuch, after all and where's the fun in that?

[ghost89475]

I'm so disappointed with Sergei.
a few eps back he squarely rejected Arika. 2 eps back he said he was attracted to Arika, and how angsty he looked while admitting it. And now he "FINALLY" succumbed to his "daughter's" seduction who is abt Arika's age. What the?

And what's up with Tomoe. WHAT'S WRONG WITH SUNRISE!
She can go crazy all she like, but could she stay away from Shizuru! >.<

[imperialmog]

Also wouldn't as well we have the possiblity that what Sergay really did was was some sort of sleeper hold on her and she THOUGHT she did what she did? I really wouldn't be surprised if something else happened since it has happened before in this series.

True Kieli, we don't know if nanomachines work on eunuch's. That and considering Nagi, he might enjoy the pain. Though maybe your idea of horrible chemical reactions in his body would be fun due to chelating agents. Or just subject him to Arika's cooking with a whole day locked in a room with Shiho. Being at college I know all too well how bad food can mess you up.

[Tremalkinger]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

I enjoyed this episode of Otome and downloaded it raw, and I have no reason to make a thread titled "Why this episode sucks" because, you know, I didn't think it sucked at all. I guess you interpretted my actions as "sticking up for twh" if you are telling me to go make a "Why it sucks" thread.

Nothing that you're saying is strictly incorrect, Kodachrome. Out of context, I'd agree. But given everything that's happened on these boards over the last months, I'll try and explain why I'm finally venting my frustration.

I enjoy Mai Otome as a series. It's a form of entertainment to me. It's not very important, in the big picture... no one's life will be improved or hurt by whether I like the series (except maybe Sunrise marketing execs). Visiting these boards to speculate and get other viewpoints on the series is another layer of enjoyment to me, and was a blast for the first ten or fifteen episodes, before twh's behavior became widespread.

Repeatedly visiting internet boards under a guise of anomaly and repeatedly taking actions designed to entertain yourself at the expense of other people's enjoyment of a series is a type of trolling, and its unhealthy, sad and pathetic. It's difficult for the mind to comprehend the depths of my dislike of Gundam, but do you see me over on the Gundam boards telling people that giant robots are stupid? No... I simply allow the Gundam fans to enjoy their series on their own boards, and wish them the best. Why is this so difficult for some people? Is pissing on someone else's parade that much fun?

As far as Ignoring goes, don't think I haven't strongly considered it. But I really really hate to actually use that, simply because people always have a chance for redemption. A good example is Matrim... he's made some posts that have made me want to smack my head against the wall, and yet he's made some very thoughtful and intelligent posts too.

[ArchDragon]

Originally Posted by Kieli

This is where it gets confusing. I'm assuming that, every time she has to play the Harmonium, it needs to recognise her and her nanomachines before she can access it. It's possible that Nagi knew, whatever happened to his Otome, the damage would already be done. The Harmonium would be opened. Therefore, Nina has outlived her purpose. Wouldn't anyone be able to play the Harmonium at that point as long as they knew the song? I am assuming that, in order to harness the FULL power of the Harmonium, Nina still needs the nanomachines and her GEM. Why would Nagi allow that power to be lessened? Even if he still controlled Nina through her emotions, she'd be less effective. Or maybe that no longer even matters. *shrug* I'm just throwing out some possible thoughts. I guess we won't know the answers until the final eps.

I don't think Nina's nanomachines are necessary for the Harmonium.
Recall that Mashiro qualified as one of the keys to the Harmonium despite never having nanomachines.

I'm sure any one of the 3 keys can use it's power as long as it's been activated by all 3.
While Nina can no longer use it's power directly ala ep. 22, she can still use it as a long range WMD ala ep. 23.

Besides, she might be able to use it to restore her nanomachines.
If it can heal a dying man, it should be able to restore degenerated nanomachines.

Oh you mean a squirming, twitching suffering Nagi? Nah the castration might nullify the effects. He'd be a eunuch, after all and where's the fun in that?

I don't think men can ever use nanomachines no matter what has been done to them.
Male specific proteins aside, they have Y-chromosomes in every single cell, even in their blood.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ArchDragon

Besides, she might be able to use it to restore her nanomachines.
If it can heal a dying man, it should be able to restore degenerated nanomachines.

let me remind you that the degenerated nanomachines aren't the problem.
the problem is : because of the degenerating nanomachines activities, the body will simply counteract them with antibodies.
the person under this state can no longer received any nanomachine (they would be destroyed by the antibodies, sane or not). this is explained by yokho at episode 4 (that's why they said : you will loose your otome abilities forever )

and i don't really think you can force a body to stop creating such antibodies like that

[Retsoor]

>> I'm assuming that, every time she has to play the Harmonium, it needs to recognise her and her nanomachines

Nina only materialized before because the Harmonium made her act as Protector simultaneously with Player. Now that she is no longer an Otome, the Harmonium only recognizes her bloodline. As for what role the gem plays here, my best guess is that the Harmonium cannot recognize a bloodline without a medium, and the gem fulfills that role, acting independent of the Otome bond.

>> FULL power of the Harmonium [...] Wouldn't anyone be able to play the Harmonium

Full power will need all three participants. The Harmonium can only be used by the Player. The other two are not sufficient, as Mikoto proved in episode 7 or so.

>> Why would Nagi allow that power to be lessened?

Lack of, and averse to exercise, total control. Nagi has no illusions as to why Nina does all of this: Sergey. Sergey is essential when manipulating Nina and his removal from the equation (does not necessarily include killing, but removing from immediate vicinity) could tip Nina's already frail mental balance in an unforeseen direction. Instead of playing a very dangerous game with his ultimate weapon, he decided to embrace a lesser risk.

Hah, maybe he thought Sergey lost his touch when he protected Arika, he certainly derived some malicious pleasure from the scene when the great seducer inadvertently fell for Arika. Anyway, Sergey obviously showed us he didn't lose that touch...

... or to put it more realistically, Nagi underestimated to what lengths those two would go for each other.

>> Would she have become a more world-weary Nina or a more determined, strong Nina?

Definitely a strong Nina. The way she pronounced his name in the end, without any trace of hesitation, was to me an indication that she finally found and attained her "heart's desire".

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by ArchDragon

I don't think men can ever use nanomachines no matter what has been done to them. Male specific proteins aside, they have Y-chromosomes in every single cell, even in their blood.

I'm aware of the biology behind it, seeing as how I am a biologist....but since anime is not real life (as has been pointed out to me several times), apparently anything could happen...whether or not it would be plausible is still up in the air. Maybe that's why Sergay has yet to die *shrug* Maybe he has some sort of nanomachine technology that is similar to Otome without actually being an Otome. Now THAT would make a very interesting side explanation. God knows I've wondered how he could take on a large mechanical fish, survive a critical hit from a SLAVE and not have his brains painting Garderobe from a bullet to the head (Nagi must be a really crappy shot). Some days I think he's one of Mikoto's cats...nine lives and all that....he's only give five more left at this rate.

Lack of, and averse to exercise, total control. Nagi has no illusions as to why Nina does all of this: Sergey. Sergey is an essential when manipulating Nina and his removal from the equation (does not necessarily include killing, but removing from immediate vicinity) could tip Nina's already frail mental balance in an unforeseen direction. Instead of playing a very dangerous game with his ultimate weapon, he decided to embrace a lesser risk.

Hmm...I personally would consider gravely injuring Sergay to be a greater risk. However, as he's managed to distance himself from the act (clever brat that he is), Nina would never think of his duplicity (although I have no idea why she wouldn't...she has to know, despite her devotion to duty, that he's as manipulative as they come). Tipping Nina's mental state without knowing the consequences is playing a dangerous game...he has no idea what the outcome would truly be. Granted, Nagi has always been one to play the odds but this is a bit too reckless for him, IMO.

Hah, maybe he thought Sergey lost his touch when he protected Arika, he certainly derived some malicious pleasure from him when he inadvertently fell for Arika. Anyway, Sergey obviously showed us he didn't lose that touch...

That's quite possible. He was looking to see if the North Hound still existed. But as Sergay is now an older, wiser man, he's shown that he's no longer the driven, reckless youth that possibly his nickname suggests. Or maybe this was simply payback for betraying Nagi in the first place. Nagi didn't seem to want to outright punish him (for reasons I'm not quite sure of) so this was an underhanded way of showing Sergay who has the ultimate upper hand.

*shrug* And what is making me think of all this anyway??

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Perhaps I should explain further...

I wanted a thread created as a LAST RESORT, because people seem to insist they can have new complaints without new causes. It's not to generate discussion, because most complaint discussions have already been completed in the last few weeks. And if there IS legit complaint that is new, I welcome it to be posted in the Episode Discussion thread.

No . I don't want a complaint thread. The thread creation was suggested because I want to offer a middle ground instead of telling anyone to shut up about anything. I fail to see how this moderate suggestion could be used against me.

Heres the thing: You are suggesting that the idea (of making a thread purely for complainers) as a last resort. OK.

But!
1) Right now, the complaints, according to you, are pointless and provide no constructive discussion.
2) Making a thread that has meaningly content will promtly get deleted.

The point Im trying to make? Making a complain thread just cant happen now. Not even as a last resort. The thread (if made) cant be of use at all. It cant act as a middle ground, because the very existance of the thread is non-existing, nor can it exist very long if mods see it fit to delete a useless thread like that.

The suggestion, of making a thread (last resort or whatnot) is pretty much moot at this point in time.

Originally Posted by ArchDragon

I don't think Nina's nanomachines are necessary for the Harmonium.
Recall that Mashiro qualified as one of the keys to the Harmonium despite never having nanomachines.

Personally, I think its not so much about any "key" being able to use the Harmonium. Rather, only the true heir to the WindBloom throne being able to use its powers.

"powering up" the Harmonium is one thing, acutally being able to USE it is another. Surely there's a reason as to why the True Princess is having piority over the Protector and the Song?

Look at it in the context of FF X: Say, Tidus's celestial weapon (Harmonium). It requires key items to power up (Song, Protector, Conductor). But in the end, only Tidus (True Princess, Nina) can actually use it. Thats the way I see it.

Originally Posted by ArchDragon

Besides, she might be able to use it to restore her nanomachines.
If it can heal a dying man, it should be able to restore degenerated nanomachines.

The question here isn't about "regenerating" the nanos, its about destroying the antibodies that prevent the nanos from existing in the body. As long as a female is able to somehow remove those anti-bodies that were created via sexual intercourse (the Y-chromosomes stuff and all), she is able to possess nanos, hence become an Otome.

Hence, the question would be: Can the Harmonium remove the anti-bodies?

[ArchDragon]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

let me remind you that the degenerated nanomachines aren't the problem.
the problem is : because of the degenerating nanomachines activities, the body will simply counteract them with antibodies.
the person under this state can no longer received any nanomachine (they would be destroyed by the antibodies, sane or not). this is explained by yokho at episode 4 (that's why they said : you will loose your otome abilities forever )

and i don't really think you can force a body to stop creating such antibodies like that

Actually, that's what I meant.
Removing the antibodies and then restoring the degenerated nanos.
I didn't elaborate because I assume everyone would know what I'm talking about.

Well, if it can regenerate someone's brain, why can't it remove antibodies?
IRL, antibody production in human body is triggered by foreign agents, the body will then keep producing them on a "memory" basis.
But if the agents (degenerated nanos) and the existing antibodies are wiped clean to the point that Nina's body no longer remembers that such things ever exist, a fresh batch of nanos can then be injected safely.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Kieli

I'm aware of the biology behind it, seeing as how I am a biologist....but since anime is not real life (as has been pointed out to me several times), apparently anything could happen...whether or not it would be plausible is still up in the air. Maybe that's why Sergay has yet to die *shrug* Maybe he has some sort of nanomachine technology that is similar to Otome without actually being an Otome. Now THAT would make a very interesting side explanation. God knows I've wondered how he could take on a large mechanical fish, survive a critical hit from a SLAVE and not have his brains painting Guarderobe from a bullet to the head (Nagi must be a really crappy shot). Some days I think he's one of Mikoto's cats...nine lives and all that....he's only give five more left at this rate.

Biology aside, there must be a reason that only girls can become Otomes.
There are a lot of men born without "proper" equipment you know...
And considering the setting of MO, they would've preferred to use men if it were at all possible.

What intriqued me the most right now is why the previous war was called "The Dragon King War".
As well as Miyu's comment about the "sealed Black Power".
Was there someone called "The Dragon King" that triggered/caused the war?
If there was, is he the "Black Power" that Miyu described?
If he is, is he also Schwarz's "Black God"?

If Sergay turns out to be something not-exactly-human, his apparent invincibility would then be explained.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The idea around the nanomachines is an strange concept because that means for Aswald the only people they can save are the women and not the men, otherwise the nanomachines would break down.

[Retsoor]

>> Well, if it can regenerate someone's brain

The Harmonium isn't regenerating anyone's brain at the moment. What I gathered from the conversation, is that Nagi said to Nina that she would put Sergey in stasis - essentially freezing time for him - and when the school's secrets have been unlocked, it might be possible to revive him. A frail hope, but that girl would try to fly with a cardboard box if it meant saving Sergey.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kieli

I'm aware of the biology behind it, seeing as how I am a biologist....but since anime is not real life (as has been pointed out to me several times), apparently anything could happen...whether or not it would be plausible is still up in the air. Maybe that's why Sergay has yet to die *shrug* Maybe he has some sort of nanomachine technology that is similar to Otome without actually being an Otome. Now THAT would make a very interesting side explanation. God knows I've wondered how he could take on a large mechanical fish, survive a critical hit from a SLAVE and not have his brains painting Guarderobe from a bullet to the head (Nagi must be a really crappy shot). Some days I think he's one of Mikoto's cats...nine lives and all that....he's only give five more left at this rate.

this is really possible, considering that Rad and the other aswad cyborgs use Nanomachine.
sure they aren't the same as the otome one, but still (Midori orders to everyone to activate their nanomachine for 5 minutes againt haruka at episode 10, and she said to arika and mashiro that they need garderobe technology, since their own nanomachine aren't reliable (they never know when they will be destroyed, that is maybe the reason why lumen died) )

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Retsoor

>> Well, if it can regenerate someone's brain

The Harmonium isn't regenerating anyone's brain at the moment. What I gathered from the conversation, is that Nagi said to Nina that she would put Sergey in stasis - essentially freezing time for him - and when the school's secrets have been unlocked, it might be possible to revive him. A frail hope, but that girl would try to fly with a cardboard box if it meant saving Sergey.

How the heck could he do that without the technology that Garderobe possesses? I mean, granted, he could put him in cryogenic stasis but I thought he was simply in a hospital room, not locked away and frozen.

[Retsoor]

Kieli, Nina did it with the Harmonium. That green box is a sort of stasis box, as far as I'm aware.

[Kieli]

Originally Posted by Retsoor

Kieli, Nina did it with the Harmonium. That green box is a sort of stasis box, as far as I'm aware.

Hmm...I wonder, will Sunrise use the Harmonium to undo the effects of SLAVES (reviving the dead masters) if they can bring back Sergay? You know what I'm thinking.....Erstin resurrection? Aoi healed?

[ArchDragon]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

this is really possible, considering that Rad and the other aswad cyborgs use Nanomachine.
sure they aren't the same as the otome one, but still (Midori orders to everyone to activate their nanomachine for 5 minutes againt haruka at episode 10, and she said to arika and mashiro that they need garderobe technology, since their own nanomachine aren't reliable (they never know when they will be destroyed, that is maybe the reason why lumen died) )

I'm sure Midori is only activating her own nanos.
The cyborgs are like Miyu in a sense, they have other power sources.

As for Lumen dying, couldn't it be from damages she suffered during the battle against Cardair's Otomes?
There's no way you can beat that many Meisters without getting a scratch.

[friendshipz]

...until this far...here's one qns.. does nina knows that she is the heir of windbloom?

anti-bodies..y-chrom..am not watching this anime and learning biology at the same time...<_<"

i came to realise 1 thing, don make this anime to a extend where u analyse this anime too complicated..actually the ans was just there at the very first moment of ur brain storming process...

arika = rena daughter..the ans was just there right at the beginning of this otome series..

well the dispute had reiterate itself once more...when will the tied breeze again..

[Retsoor]

Damn quick reply, missed that post.

>> Some days I think he's one of Mikoto's cats...nine lives and all that....he's only give five more left at this rate.

Sergey is just incredibly tough. You know, the eats steel, shits iron type.

>> I personally would consider gravely injuring Sergay to be a greater risk

I agree. That's why I mentioned that removing from the equation is too dangerous, but now Nagi deemed it inevitable. I'm pretty sure it'll come back to bite him in the leg next week, if anyone's going to distribute divine retribution to Nagi, it's Nina.

>> Or maybe this was simply payback for betraying Nagi in the first place

Well, I do think Nagi was sincere when he said "Truly a shame, Sergey" after he shot him. They were together in this for a long, long time after all.

>> will Sunrise use the Harmonium to undo the effects of SLAVES

That's what I hate about those yellow sparkles, a corpse is a corpse, but when your sendoff consists of lots of sparkles you can always pull something out of your ass, like insisting they still exist in some metaphysical level.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ArchDragon

I'm sure Midori is only activating her own nanos.
The cyborgs are like Miyu in a sense, they have other power sources.

As for Lumen dying, couldn't it be from damages she suffered during the battle against Cardair's Otomes?
There's no way you can beat that many Meisters without getting a scratch.

hmmm, you got a point, awaiting some confirmation though ^^' (but that's clearly rationnal to lose some men with that amount of otome... simply 4 cyborg, 1 reinforced otome-like woman + 5 childs is kinda...poor...)
but then again, this is weird that aswad seeks for garderobe technology, since they would save only women, just like SoldierOfDarkness said