Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[blue_sora]

Originally Posted by wm4

While Shuu is similar to Shinji except being more determined (and in this way, he like Cloud Strike more),

I'm sorry, but I laughed hard at your typo .

Ehem, back to the topic, this is the best episode for me. Somehow this one has more natural pacing compared to previous one. Finally the show seems to be heading the direction it intended (hopefully).

That Major Segai has shown he is a true antagonist compared to the kaleidoscope guy. The only question I have this time was the high-security prison is located beside the isolation ward? Huh, maybe GHQ experimented both at the prisoners and patients about the Apocalypse Virus.

So GHQ knows every single face and name of the Funeral Parlor. So...what's stopping them for capturing the terrorists ?

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by blue_sora

The only question I have this time was the high-security prison is located beside the isolation ward? Huh, maybe GHQ experimented both at the prisoners and patients about the Apocalypse Virus.

I just assumed the whole base was a GHQ super-facility but that's possible. I like how in-universe no one seems to have noticed (or maybe they just haven't mentioned) how much the advanced apocalypse virus looks a bit like Shu's arm when he's drawing out voids.

I also have to agree that the keeping the transmitter will probably backfire. Even if he doesn't ever use it, I'm guessing Segai can still trace its location. In Shu's defense, though, he was probably only thinking of it as a trump card to use if Gai betrays him.

Still loved seeing him do the princess carry of his new superhero girlfriend out of the supermax prison he'd just crushed with his manliness. Where.. where are you taking her, Shu..?

[bigdeath]

Originally Posted by felix

When it took the pseudo-realistic route (setting, relationships, politics).

As code geass proved, those will not stop an anime from being fabulously absurd. I saw this coming immediately with all the similarities with that little gem of a show.

Similarities to Code Geass:

1) Rebellion vs Oppressive and genocidal regime = check
2) Relationships = plenty of relations between characters to spark conflict, romance and fan shipping = check
3) MECHA = check
4) Absurd physics from supposedly normal characters = check
5) Unnecessary school setting = semi-check, not sure how much of the school they will show since Shu should be a known terrorist now. It would be silly for him to return to school but I wouldn't put it past the writers.
6) People complaining that the show flip flopping between being serious and absurd = oh most certainly.
7) People complaining about racism because the bad guys are primarily foreigners and there are not enough positive foreigner characters (if any) to counterbalance = SIGH

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Still loved seeing him do the princess carry of his new superhero girlfriend out of the supermax prison he'd just crushed with his manliness. Where.. where are you taking her, Shu..?

Obviously to the love boat, because its time to rock the boat if you know what I mean...........

[felix]

Originally Posted by bigdeath

As code geass proved, those will not stop an anime from being fabulously absurd.

In code geass the setting and politics weren't realistic. This is set in a semi-accurate depiction of the future, CG was set in a fantasy world. The politics here also follow realistic guidelines of what can and can't be done; things like having a humanitarian agenda or not breaking human rights too often or in plain daylight for no reason. In CG it's all very much like a puppet show. The soldiers don't have a reason to follow orders. The military doesn't have a excuse for their actions. The politics don't have a political agenda, it's all as totalitarian as it gets, where as in GC is all very semi-democratic big brother nonsense.

Oh and CG was clamp, when the designs are so exaggerated things like jumping 3 stories don't really phase you as much as with these more polished realistic designs (well as realistic as "anime" can get anyway ).

I'm sure some people have no issue with it but the contrast between absurdity and make believe reality irks me (and apparently others).

[bigdeath]

So your saying that a multi national para-military force, that doesn't seem to answer directly to any one government, taking over japan because of a very nasty outbreak of an absurdly bizarre disease to be a serious setting?

Theres nothing semi-accurate about this animes future. We are not getting gravity defying mecha any time soon. Nor the very weird weapons that Shu pulls out of people. We also don't know much about the governments around the world so who knows what the current state of the world is?

"things like having a humanitarian agenda or not breaking human rights too often or in plain daylight for no reason"

You do realize GHQ was ready, willing, and attempted to committed a massacre episode 2?

As for realistic guidelines, your confusing the word realistic with modern. This is how modern nations behave but that does not mean they have to in order to be realistic. Modern nations can and still do declare war over racial/tribal disputes, commit genocide, and generally act unethical if not outright inhumane. An autocratic government such as in Code Geass (plenty exist today around the world) is no less realistic than a semi-democratic big brother conspiracy.


As for clamp's CG designs, you've got me there. lol. But having correctly proportioned characters hardly makes an anime more realistic.

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What I think is more important for an anime to seem realistic is the characters themselves. We can accept the absurd physics of anime if the characters are believeable. And thats ultimately subjective. I find Shu a believeable character because I can relate to him. Once upon a time I too was a rather insecure and indecisive kid. Though Shu does seem to be quickly growing a backbone which is exciting. It shall be fun to see how he grows through out the show.

[maplehurry]

So your saying that a multi national para-military force, that doesn't seem to answer directly to any one government, taking over japan over a very nasty outbreak of an absurdly bizarre disease to be a serious setting?

United Nations, if it's srs lol.

[magnuskn]

Excellent episode, really put this anime on the map again for me. We'll have to see what Inoris deal is with her sudden superhuman abilities, but since at least I haven't forgotten the flashbacks from episode one ( establishing a clear childhood connection between Shu and Inori ), I assume there is much more going on in the background than we are aware of at the moment.

Shu is capable of being quite a badass when he finally decides to stop boo-hooing around.

[bigdeath]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

United Nations, if it's srs lol.

United Nations doesn't have an army. Nations might lend forces to a UN operation but thats wholly different from GHQ who seems to be under its own authority. A para-military force given free reign over a whole country is realistic?

I also would not be surprised if GHQ had a hand in producing the virus and releasing it. They may have even done it one purpose and the same virus that caused the epidemic may have created voids as well.

[Myname]

120,000 views... why no sub-forum?

[blue_sora]

Originally Posted by Myname

120,000 views... why no sub-forum?

Because most of the posts and discussion in this thread are criticism/bashing and not real discussion about the anime, so even if a sub-forum exists the only active thread will be 'Why Guilty Crown sucks' or the more correct one 'Why Guilty Crown is controversial' .

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by creb

Well, basically every prediction I had about this episode came true.

Anyways, did anyone translate what the newspaper said?

Headline: Roppongi death toll exceeds 1000

Right column: Virus suspicions....(rest is cut off)

Middle column: Prime minister convenes cabinet....(rest cut off)

[Kanon]

That was definitely a lot more interesting than the first two episodes. Sadly, it still retained some of their flaws, namely the stupid moments like Gai - a very infamous terrorist - infiltrating a military compound under the worst disguise ever seen; they even highlighted how absurd it was by having Shu recognize him at a glance... why couldn't the soldiers do the same? I'd put Inori evading mechs and breaking into the facility on foot - and let's not forget jumping 50 meters high - in the same bag, but as others as said, there is most likely an explanation for that. Genetic engineering? Anti-Gravity device? Screw that, I say she's Master Asia's disciple. See that long white band she carries with her? She's going to use to it destroy mechs.

The new villain is certainly better than the previous ones, but I feel he's getting too much credit. He has a brain and is more manipulative yes, but he's still as evil as they come. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we see him crush kitties under his boots. Hopefully, I'm wrong about that.

The action scenes were ridiculously awesome once again, and the BGMs as fantastic as ever. They've yet to disappoint me on that front.

I understand that Shu doesn't know who to trust now, but he still shouldn't have kept that pen. Actually, it's precisely for that reason that he should have kept it. It's kinda obvious to me the pen is tracking him at all times. It's surely going to come back to bite him in the ass, and thus put the Undertakers (whom he doesn't really care about) and Inori (whom he very much cares about) in danger.

My hope for the next few episodes is to see Inori's personality (who is about as deep as that of a random Rei clone) developed and Shu man up a little bit. I hope they'll never set foot at school again as well. For one, because school hijinks and terrorism don't mix well, and more importantly because Shu shouldn't even be able to go back now that his connection to the Undertakers is obvious. Incidentally, Inori shouldn't have been to transfer in the first place, but whatever...

[Triple_R]

The setting in Guilty Crown is not significantly different, in overall atmosphere and feel, than the setting in Marvel or DC comics.

In both cases, you're given a slightly futuristic Earth, but one with striking similarities to the real world, in order to accomplish greater viewer immersion.

In both cases, you have people with metahuman abilities and powers that defy the laws of physics, if not common sense (i.e. getting incredible powers from gamma radiation, or by being bit by a radioactive spider, or by going from living under a red sun to living under a yellow sun).

In both cases, cannon fodder antagonist armies are usually not that smart, flawlessly obedient 99% or more of the time, and are primarily there to get blown up and provide nice action scenes.

In both cases, governments and government agencies tend to be portrayed negatively, with a focus on corrupt officials, politicians, and soldiers.

In both cases, you have hammy antagonists. Major Segai may or may not be "as evil as they come", but The Joker certainly is, and he's also widely regarded as one of the very best antagonists/villains of all-time.


Guilty Crown has some anime tropes to it, of course, but it has the sensibilities of a DC or Marvel comic book, simply without the spandex costumes (although, even here, Inori's attire is no less colorful/atypical than Superman's). As such, it's about as serious as a comic book story is.

Which is to say that it's more serious than, say, Excel Saga. But it's not as serious as, say, Serial Experiments Lain.

It should be noted, though, that there are millions upon millions of people who take comic books very seriously. People who have no problem with stories much like the one in Guilty Crown. People who can let Superman's disguise slide, and people who can live with Batman pulling off things that only a metahuman should be able to.

Because at the end of the day, the laws of physics in fiction is not that big of a deal unless your show or story is mainly for people really into science and technology (like Star Trek). Guilty Crown is, like comic books, aimed at a slightly different audience than that. It's aimed at people who just want to enjoy some great action scenes with a passable and easy to follow plot that paints in bold emotional strokes but isn't meant to be high-end intellectually.


Guilty Crown is not pretending to be anything that it's not, and it has no identity issues. It's been showcasing the sensibilities of an action-packed Hollywood blockbuster (including modern superhero movies) from the very first episode, and with the exception of a semi-comedic Episode 3, its remained consistent with those sensibilities. This identity that Guilty Crown has chosen for itself is also not in any way, shape, or form, out of line with what its PVs portrayed.


I think the issue here is that some people have a preconceived notion that semi-realistic setting means that nothing unrealistic and/or very implausible should happen. But that preconceived notion is regularly contradicted by some of the most well-known and popular fictional stories around.

If you (and I'm using "you" in a general sense here) can't get pass this preconceived notion, then I respect that, but just know that it's your lost, not Guilty Crown's. Plenty of people (including myself) are thoroughly enjoying Guilty Crown just the way it is.

Not every show I watch needs to have picture perfect realism. In fact, I would find that rather boring after awhile. The best action shows I've watched only achieved that by being willing to throw realism out the door every now and then.

[miketyson]

That "american comic book" analysis is really solid, Triple_R. I like it, GC really feels more like Spiderman or the X-Men than a typical anime.

I dunno: based on all the furor I expected to hate this but I'm finding it pretty fun. It has a surprising amount of originality but most of what's original is subtle, and most of what's not-subtle is kinda generic, trope-heavy, and still seems slightly off. Still lots of time to improve.

I tend to agree that the main mistake is that Inori's just too flat: they should've made her livelier or quirkier, or should've left her as-is but hinted at her backstory a bit more by now.

I feel like I know what they're going for with her -- her "real" personality will turn out to be some kind of mindless, cold-blooded killing machine, with the normal personality some kind of trained performance. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Gai's group treat her more like one of the combat robots than part of the team.

I like Shu: he's got that typical wimpy "starter" personality, but he's smart and independent, so the comparisons to Renton and Shinji seem out of place.

[Master Assassin]

Originally Posted by miketyson

her "real" personality will turn out to be some kind of mindless, cold-blooded killing machine, with the normal personality some kind of trained performance.

So, uh, can I now imagine the next thing that'll be is she wishing for Shu to stop her?

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The setting in Guilty Crown is not significantly different, in overall atmosphere and feel, than the setting in Marvel or DC comics.

In both cases, you're given a slightly futuristic Earth, but one with striking similarities to the real world, in order to accomplish greater viewer immersion.

In both cases, you have people with metahuman abilities and powers that defy the laws of physics, if not common sense (i.e. getting incredible powers from gamma radiation, or by being bit by a radioactive spider, or by going from living under a red sun to living under a yellow sun).

In both cases, cannon fodder antagonist armies are usually not that smart, flawlessly obedient 99% or more of the time, and are primarily there to get blown up and provide nice action scenes.

In both cases, governments and government agencies tend to be portrayed negatively, with a focus on corrupt officials, politicians, and soldiers.

In both cases, you have hammy antagonists. Major Segai may or may not be "as evil as they come", but The Joker certainly is, and he's also widely regarded as one of the very best antagonists/villains of all-time.


Guilty Crown has some anime tropes to it, of course, but it has the sensibilities of a DC or Marvel comic book, simply without the spandex costumes (although, even here, Inori's attire is no less colorful/atypical than Superman's). As such, it's about as serious as a comic book story is.

Which is to say that it's more serious than, say, Excel Saga. But it's not as serious as, say, Serial Experiments Lain.

It should be noted, though, that there are millions upon millions of people who take comic books very seriously. People who have no problem with stories much like the one in Guilty Crown. People who can let Superman's disguise slide, and people who can live with Batman pulling off things that only a metahuman should be able to.

Because at the end of the day, the laws of physics in fiction is not that big of a deal unless your show or story is mainly for people really into science and technology (like Star Trek). Guilty Crown is, like comic books, aimed at a slightly different audience than that. It's aimed at people who just want to enjoy some great action scenes with a passable and easy to follow plot that paints in bold emotional strokes but isn't meant to be high-end intellectually.


Guilty Crown is not pretending to be anything that it's not, and it has no identity issues. It's been showcasing the sensibilities of an action-packed Hollywood blockbuster (including modern superhero movies) from the very first episode, and with the exception of a semi-comedic Episode 3, its remained consistent with those sensibilities. This identity that Guilty Crown has chosen for itself is also not in any way, shape, or form, out of line with what its PVs portrayed.


I think the issue here is that some people have a preconceived notion that semi-realistic setting means that nothing unrealistic and/or very implausible should happen. But that preconceived notion is regularly contradicted by some of the most well-known and popular fictional stories around.

If you (and I'm using "you" in a general sense here) can't get pass this preconceived notion, then I respect that, but just know that it's your lost, not Guilty Crown's. Plenty of people (including myself) are thoroughly enjoying Guilty Crown just the way it is.

Not every show I watch needs to have picture perfect realism. In fact, I would find that rather boring after awhile. The best action shows I've watched only achieved that by being willing to throw realism out the door every now and then.

That was a great summary. And remember viewers, if anything bugs you about the show, recite the MST3K Mantra:
"It's just a show, I should really just relax."

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by miketyson

That "american comic book" analysis is really solid, Triple_R. I like it, GC really feels more like Spiderman or the X-Men than a typical anime.

Thanks, and I agree.

I dunno: based on all the furor I expected to hate this but I'm finding it pretty fun. It has a surprising amount of originality but most of what's original is subtle, and most of what's not-subtle is kinda generic, trope-heavy, and still seems slightly off.

I do see your point here. I can understand people missing the original elements because they are subtle, whereas less original elements are much more "loud" and obvious. Those original elements are part of the charm of this show for me, though, and is why I'm not entirely comfortable with viewing it as not serious at all.

This is part of the reason why I raised the American comic book analogy. You can get serious stories with serious themes and topics in Spiderman and X-Men comics, but you're not going to get complete fidelity to the laws of physics.

You're also going to get a higher-than-usual degree of ham, of course.

I tend to agree that the main mistake is that Inori's just too flat: they should've made her livelier or quirkier, or should've left her as-is but hinted at her backstory a bit more by now.

In general, this anime is probably leaving a bit too much to mystery, yes. That's one criticism I can get behind, and partly why I didn't give Episode 4 a perfect score.

What can be helpful in a story like Guilty Crown's is using engrossing character moments to distract from things like defying the laws of physics; the literary equivalent of sleight of hand, if you will.

I get the sense that Guilty Crown is holding back too many of its best cards, when playing them out at a steadier pace would have helped to counter or negate some of the harsher criticisms its received.

I like Shu: he's got that typical wimpy "starter" personality, but he's smart and independent, so the comparisons to Renton and Shinji seem out of place.

I also like his independence. His indecisiveness also feels raw and real to me, rather than simply wimpy.

[felix]

I support your comic book comparison. The meta-discussion after it not so much, but discussing that is boring anyway, so who cares. Long live the comic book comparison.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by bigdeath

United Nations doesn't have an army. Nations might lend forces to a UN operation but thats wholly different from GHQ who seems to be under its own authority. A para-military force given free reign over a whole country is realistic...?

Think NATO forces in Iraq or Afghanistan. Not just realistic, but happening as we speak.

From Wikipedia: "...The International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) was established by the UN Security Council at the end of December 2001 to secure Kabul and the surrounding areas. NATO assumed control of ISAF in 2003. ISAF includes troops from 42 countries, with NATO members providing the core of the force."

Of course, in the real world the US controls the whole thing. It has always had basic control of the UN, through the security council, and NATO is an association of allies/subordinates of the US. Once the UN established the force, NATO and the US took over control and did what they thought best, expanding the mandate to (attempted) control of the whole country, all under the name of ISAF.

[Cosmic Eagle]

First....awsm insert song during the scene where Shu pwns everything with that sword. Need to get it sometime....


Second....What...The...Fuck....

Did he just obliterate the hospital facility and most likely every patient in it as well? Talk about hypocrisy.....