Haruhi Suzumiya - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Haruhi Fans only)

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Unfortunately, your ideas, though complex, skipped the most important aspect of the Data Entities; they are 4D creatures.

All your assumptions assume the Data entities as creatures trapped in time, that they are stuck on the time stream like the rest of us. But this is clearly not the case.

The limitations you impose on the Data entities, thus, makes no sense from their perspective; past and future are the same thing to them. If you did not put this into account, nothing else would matter.

They have such trouble understanding 3D, they had to send a probe in the shape of Yuki Nagato. They themselves would certainly have trouble understanding anything you described, which does not really exist for them.

There is one limitation to the trans-temporal synchronization of Data Entities that must be kept in mind: Authorization for it must be granted from the "future" end. Recall how in the prologue to Intrigues, Yuki denied synchronization access to her past self. This means that although Data Entities CAN access future data under the right circumstances, it is not a "pre-cognitive memory" wherein the future is accessed as freely as the past.

Given that the transference of information "backward" in time requires a conscious action on the part of the future end of the transference, and given that Data Entities at any point in their development before they achieved awareness (i.e. when they were at the IQ equivalent of "dumb animals") would be unable to comprehend the data stream from the future anyway, I do think that linear time would still apply to their pre-sapience evolution, even if they "broke free" from it starting when they developed this ability to transmit data back in time.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by amyjo

Heatth,

Thanks for the comments. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

If the author did originally intend all of these stories to fit within a year and did change his mind, there are a lot of ways to make the quote above consistent with making the time-frame of the stories longer. Perhaps the most shocking things happened during that first year that they all met? Who knows. I have hope that we'll see the real end of the story at some point--hopefully without too many (more) years of waiting!

I also agree that Tanigawa just changed his plan for the series, or more likely, just hadn't really expected to have enough story to fill much more than a year's worth in-universe. But any discrepency is easily rectified one of two ways:

1) Make sure the later years in the franchise aren't quite as eventful. This is going to have to be by number of "events" as opposed to memorability, since I imagine the final event, no matter when that may be, will probably be the most memorable single event. But we're fudging anyway, so linguistic leeway is certainly acceptable.

2) Retroactively add a few more "events" to the first year. A bit less likely, considering the first year was pretty full (8 volumes worth) but still feasible. I'm not sure any uncovered events in the first year are hinted at, but I'm sure the author could think of something. Preferably as fanon-killing as possible... I love seeing that. ^__^

[Jonbob0008]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I also agree that Tanigawa just changed his plan for the series, or more likely, just hadn't really expected to have enough story to fill much more than a year's worth in-universe. But any discrepency is easily rectified one of two ways:

1) Make sure the later years in the franchise aren't quite as eventful. This is going to have to be by number of "events" as opposed to memorability, since I imagine the final event, no matter when that may be, will probably be the most memorable single event. But we're fudging anyway, so linguistic leeway is certainly acceptable.

2) Retroactively add a few more "events" to the first year. A bit less likely, considering the first year was pretty full (8 volumes worth) but still feasible. I'm not sure any uncovered events in the first year are hinted at, but I'm sure the author could think of something. Preferably as fanon-killing as possible... I love seeing that. ^__^

There's at least two: White Day. I still wonder what Kyon and Koizumi had to do for the girls. And we never found out what Kyon and Mikuru's punishment was at the end of "The Melancholy of Mikuru Asahina" (jealous Haruhi FTW!).

[Bionicman]

Originally Posted by Jonbob0008

There's at least two: White Day. I still wonder what Kyon and Koizumi had to do for the girls. And we never found out what Kyon and Mikuru's punishment was at the end of "The Melancholy of Mikuru Asahina" (jealous Haruhi FTW!).

I believe that was answered in Volume 7. To quote another blog:

“Asahina-san continued to explain, as if in great difficulty. “I-I was in charge of doing the promoting. Being in a crowd of so many people made me feel nervous…”
So this was Haruhi’s “Operation Payback”, huh. Haruhi’s slipping. I remember when Mikuru being publically humiliated was a matter of course, not a punishment.

[Jonbob0008]

I didn't think that the Valentine's Day promotion for Volume 7 had anything to do with that. In fact, I'm quite certain it doesn't, as Kyon mentions somewhere in either this volume or a later one that the punishment Haruhi gave to Kyon and Mikuru was never to be spoken of.

[baltakatei]

I think the de facto spoiler nature of the Volume 10 novel makes this thread very appropriate for discussion purposes. After all, to really understand and analyze Volume 10 requires familiarity with the previous 9 volumes.

So are there any drawn images of the new SOS Brigade candidates?

[Roger Rambo]

I'll have to agree. Trying to get long conversations going using the spoiler text function is quite aggravating.

[baltakatei]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Spoiler for spoiler:

As for the first part, I wouldn't be "surprised" at all if beta!Haruhi figures everything out this book. In fact I suspect it's the primary meta reason why the author introduced a second timeline, being that it allows him to have an irreversable event occur without making the story irreversably changed. He can have the "big reveal", and maybe even set beta!Kyon up to "get the girl" or do all kinds of stuff we'd never normally see, and then wipe it all out at the end when the beta!verse is invalidated somehow (Earth is blown up to make way for a hyperspace bypass or some such).

As for the unexplained circumstances... With the movie editing, there are any number of reasons ranging from Itsuki bringing in someone to do it unbeknownst to the others, to spontaneous creation by Haruhi; and a mystery "other person" is certainly a possibilty. As for "who pushed Kyon", it was most likely either a memory manipulation done on Haruhi, or it was Yuki. Either way, it can safely be said that Yuki "caused it" with the question being open as to whether the "falling down the stairs" ever really happened.

I believe the movie editing was explained by one of the video game plots. I can't remember which it was, but I do know that one game (I think it was the one preceding Tomadoi) deals with alternate timelines surrounding the Culture Festival. All sorts of craziness can be caused there (Kyon dying, Haruhi meeting her younger self, Kimidori replacing Nagato, etc.) since its a visual novel with lots of bad endings. Since no english translation of the game has been made widely available, I think most of us, myself included, are quite ignorant of what else is going on in the Haruhi universe.

[Joe4evr]

Originally Posted by baltakatei

All sorts of craziness can be caused there (Kyon dying, Haruhi meeting her younger self, Kimidori replacing Nagato, etc.)

Sounds like Yakusoku, from what you're describing. And an English translation of that is in the works.

[Yumeka]

Originally Posted by baltakatei

I believe the movie editing was explained by one of the video game plots. I can't remember which it was, but I do know that one game (I think it was the one preceding Tomadoi) deals with alternate timelines surrounding the Culture Festival. All sorts of craziness can be caused there (Kyon dying, Haruhi meeting her younger self, Kimidori replacing Nagato, etc.) since its a visual novel with lots of bad endings. Since no english translation of the game has been made widely available, I think most of us, myself included, are quite ignorant of what else is going on in the Haruhi universe.

Wow, I never knew the games could be considered canon (and does all that stuff really happen in that game?) Kinda makes me wish I had a PSP XP

[Leo Keichi]

I've read the first chapter of Kyogaku. Suzumiya's got to be the most clueless girl I've ever seen. And I would never imagine that she's a good cook.

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

Sounds like Yakusoku, from what you're describing. And an English translation of that is in the works.

What do you mean? There's a fansub doing it? And does anybody know if the games are written by Tanigawa? If it is so, I think they can be considered canon.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Spoiler for spoiler:

As for the first part, I wouldn't be "surprised" at all if beta!Haruhi figures everything out this book. In fact I suspect it's the primary meta reason why the author introduced a second timeline, being that it allows him to have an irreversable event occur without making the story irreversably changed. He can have the "big reveal", and maybe even set beta!Kyon up to "get the girl" or do all kinds of stuff we'd never normally see, and then wipe it all out at the end when the beta!verse is invalidated somehow (Earth is blown up to make way for a hyperspace bypass or some such)..

Seeing how some authors like to have their stories open-ended, maybe it'll be a case of 'you decide which one of the timelines you prefer'. More or less like in those old gamebooks, as Lone Wolf, lol.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Yumeka

Wow, I never knew the games could be considered canon (and does all that stuff really happen in that game?) Kinda makes me wish I had a PSP XP

Unless it's been stated as canon, it's probably not. The intrinsicly random nature of game adaptations (you play them, not watch them...most of the time) means that they are almost never taken as canon in relation to the parent property. Of course if there's any series would gleefully break that unwritten rule...

[Joe4evr]

Originally Posted by Leo Keichi

What do you mean? There's a fansub doing it? And does anybody know if the games are written by Tanigawa? If it is so, I think they can be considered canon.

A fan-translation patch, not exactly a sub. Also, I don't think it's novel canon, but it's anime canon to a certain extent, since I saw that Haruhi wants Mikuru to sing the opening for the movie they shot for the Culture Festival near the start of the story. (Too many commas.)

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by baltakatei

I believe the movie editing was explained by one of the video game plots. I can't remember which it was, but I do know that one game (I think it was the one preceding Tomadoi) deals with alternate timelines surrounding the Culture Festival. All sorts of craziness can be caused there (Kyon dying, Haruhi meeting her younger self, Kimidori replacing Nagato, etc.) since its a visual novel with lots of bad endings. Since no english translation of the game has been made widely available, I think most of us, myself included, are quite ignorant of what else is going on in the Haruhi universe.

Since when any of these video-games are canon? Have Tanigawa been involved with then in any aspect?

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

A fan-translation patch, not exactly a sub. Also, I don't think it's novel canon, but it's anime canon to a certain extent, since I saw that Haruhi wants Mikuru to sing the opening for the movie they shot for the Culture Festival near the start of the story. (Too many commas.)

There is a fan-translation patch? Really? Where can I find it, do you know? And having Haruhi asking Mikuru to sing the OP is more like a small reference then an evidence. Personally, I would only take it as canon if I see a reference, even if small, in either the novel (for being 'novel-canon') or in the anime (for being 'anime-canon').

Actually, the anime canon is kinda messed up now isn't it? In Disappearance movie Haruhi mentioned she had been drunk before, but no such thing happened in the anime.

[Joe4evr]

Originally Posted by Heatth

There is a fan-translation patch? Really? When can I find it, do you know?

Try again in a year or two. (Hey, you did ask when, if you meant where, check Danchou's visitor messages.)

And having Haruhi asking Mikuru to sing the OP is more like a small reference then an evidence. Personally, I would only take it as canon if I see a reference, even if small, in either the novel (for being 'novel-canon') or in the anime (for being 'anime-canon').

Well, that scene does show where The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Episode 00 got its opening song from, something original to the anime.

Actually, the anime canon is kinda messed up now isn't it? In Disappearance movie Haruhi mentioned she had been drunk before, but no such thing happened in the anime.

True. I'll leave it to someone more creative to think of a theory to patch that up.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

Try again in a year or two. (Hey, you did ask when, if you meant where, check Danchou's visitor messages.)

Lol, fixed it. I found the link anyway, thanks.. And just noticed it don't matter, cause I don't have. PSP Danm, when will they make a decent emulator for it?

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

Well, that scene does show where The Adventures of Mikuru Asahina Episode 00 got its opening song from, something original to the anime.

But the anime came first right? That mean it was the game that put a small reference in it, not the opposite. Unless the anime/novel make a reference to said game, it is not canon, as far I am concerned. (or Word of God state the opposite, of course)

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

True. I'll leave it to someone more creative to think of a theory to patch that up.

I don't remember that episode fully, but there was a small 'time skip' somewhere right? It is not like they showed everything that happened. So, they did got drunk in the anime as well... it is just that it wasn't during dinner, 'cause Imouto-chan was there as well (the boozed only after she went sleep.).

The explanation I can come with.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

hello guys
is there a speculation about the titanium alloy rod that found by tsuruya
in volume 7?

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

hello guys
is there a speculation about the titanium alloy rod that found by tsuruya
in volume 7?

Plenty. Just off the top of my head, I remember there being speculation of ancient civilizations, other aliens (of the green and/or grey variety), an artifact from "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers (if his guys use a different time travel than Mikuru, then they may be unaffected by Haruhi's time fault)...

...But my personal favorite is that it's an artifact left behind in the past by one of Mikuru's fellow time travelers, from a time "before" they "became" unable to go back to the period before Haruhi's time fault. Yes, I am aware that that violates even time travel logic (don't think about it too hard, or your head will explode). That's why I like it. ^_^

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Plenty. Just off the top of my head, I remember there being speculation of ancient civilizations, other aliens (of the green and/or grey variety), an artifact from "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers (if his guys use a different time travel than Mikuru, then they may be unaffected by Haruhi's time fault)...

...But my personal favorite is that it's an artifact left behind in the past by one of Mikuru's fellow time travelers, from a time "before" they "became" unable to go back to the period before Haruhi's time fault. Yes, I am aware that that violates even time travel logic (don't think about it too hard, or your head will explode). That's why I like it. ^_^

your speculation made me think for a awhile. but i will stop now because its mindblowing.

thanks for the reply. now i understand why tsuruya ask kyon about alien and timetraveler.

[Othello~]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

hello guys
is there a speculation about the titanium alloy rod that found by tsuruya
in volume 7?

I personally think that the alloy was someone messing with time (Fujiwara).

It's quite possible for the alloy rod to have been from the future and not the past. You could say, dig a hole and bury the rod then time travel a hundred years into the future then unbury it. Wah la! 100 year old looking alloy rod without actually waiting 100 years.

It's pretty obvious that Fujiwara's group is trying to make Kyon suspicious of Mikuru's group .