2010-06-26, 18:50 | Link #11781 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Congratulations on finally catching on... Delitaaaaaaa! Using my time travel powers, I ventured back to 1986 to decimate the Ushiromiya family, so that you fools today could sit around your computers all day discussing such ridiculous concepts! I even went back even further to drag Lincoln into this whole mess... Kyahahahah... This also explains why Kinzo has in his possession a sniper rifle from 1996. Everything fits... |
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2010-06-26, 21:11 | Link #11783 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Unless of course, Kinzo invented the sniper rifle and the culprit secretly sold off the plans later. No one ever learned that the plans came from Rokkenjima because the culprit wanted to keep it that way.
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2010-06-26, 21:20 | Link #11784 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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This all aside, shouldn't we get back on topic? |
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2010-06-26, 21:41 | Link #11785 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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OR.....Ryukishi07 just omitted it to -us- so we don't realize the truth behind it >.> |
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2010-06-26, 21:45 | Link #11786 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
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2010-06-26, 21:52 | Link #11787 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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That is a good idea, and possibly a clever trick on Ryuukishi's part. Battler, being his innocent self, finds it hard to deal with the horrifying scenes of the early games. So he breaks down and shuts out the world, making it impossible to receive and clues in that state.
Assuming this is a game between us and Ryuukishi, it would be quite devious of him to exclude important clues of the game during these moments. Could we flip the chessboard around to assume now whenever Meta-Battler has a mental breakdown, something important is happening in-game? This might explain why the early games feel so difficult, while the difficulty level given to some of them are lower than they appear to be. |
2010-06-27, 07:25 | Link #11789 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Abstract.
Can the Knox rules forbid the detective from fabricating hints to satisfy Knox 8th? EDIT: And not so abstract. In Ep5, the following is said when Erika is introduced: Bernkastel: "I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. The detective is not the culprit. No proof is needed to show this." Lambda: "There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game the detective isn't the culprit has been proclaimed in red, so you don't need to consider the exception." Now wait a minute.
EDIT EDIT: Aha! Found the true original. Quote:
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-06-27 at 07:48. |
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2010-06-27, 09:35 | Link #11790 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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I doubt it. First off, there has been no one who has been described as capable as passing as Battler, and nor has there been any evidence of another one of Battler's suits lying around.
Furthermore, that would limit the people capable of dressing up as Battler to Kyrie and Rudolf, as only they would know what he would be wearing to the reunion and thus be able to prepare a disguise in advance. The setup to have a fake Battler is more or less impossible, as unlike with Piece Beato, we lack the means, the person, and the motive for someone to pretend to be Battler. |
2010-06-27, 11:33 | Link #11792 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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Yes, but Rosa lied in episode 2. She said she spoke to Kinzo, remember? Well, either she's being malicious, or she's being crazy.
In any case, common sense can tell us that the Battler we see as a piece is the Battler we know and love. Unless it's all part of Rudolf's ingenious plan to hit on Jessica and Shannon without them knowing, of course. |
2010-06-27, 11:34 | Link #11793 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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In a sense, Battler is an impostor. He's not who others think he is. But he's also not who he himself thinks he is. I don't think he's an impostor in the sense Rosa was thinking. And even if he were, and Knox 7 didn't apply, when exactly was Battler in a position to do anything anyway?
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2010-06-27, 12:38 | Link #11794 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Rosa also said she saw Beatrice in episode 2. So...
Come to think of it, what if "I" in "I am Ushiromya Asumu's ughugugh" refers only to meta-Battler? If they're two distinct entities, it could work out without Rudolf disguising himself. |
2010-06-27, 12:56 | Link #11795 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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I don't quite think it works like that. Beatrice claims to have killed various people in red, but it doesn't mean that she, a witch, killed them. Also, remember, Ange used the red to prove that she was Battler's sister. As things stand, the most we can get out of the Asumu trap Beato used in episode 4 is that another person named Battler exists, one that pretty much HAS to be female.
After all.... Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON Battler is not Asumu's SON I propose this other Battler, if alive, is either Jessica or Piece Beatrice. Piece Beatrice has the benefit of Meta-Beatrice using this name trap on Battler, mainly, how would Beato know how to snare Battler in such a precise manner? Jessica has her immunity from the name constriction red text in episode 6, in addition to dubious circumstances with her birth. And Oliver, I see what you are saying, but we have to work with clues which are presented. It's possible that Battler and George could have manically plotted to buy out the Ushiromiya family while the camera is not focused on them, but we have no scenes to indicate this. We're given nothing to work with. This is more or less the whole "trust" thing at play here. We have to more or less trust the author to give us the proper clues needed to solve the story. If we suspect that things are happening with Battler which we don't see, well, we're basically not trusting the author. So I wouldn't quite believe that during these "downtimes" something critical happens with Battler that we are not aware of. Last edited by Sentou; 2010-06-27 at 13:11. |
2010-06-27, 13:02 | Link #11796 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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It's more about this... There are multiple moments in the story when Battler is essentially dormant and doing absolutely nothing. Like Renall just said, he isn't in a position to do anything anyway because for much of the time he's doing nothing interesting with the other cousins, and it's so uninteresting that we don't see it on screen at all. This starts being particularly prominent Ep3 onwards, though even in Ep1 there are still long periods when his activities remain not well defined.
What if something interesting does happen to him and the cousins during those periods and we just don't get told?
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2010-06-27, 13:23 | Link #11797 |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Wasn't the point of those reds to kind of dance around the idea that having a mother is NOT the same as being born from someone?
IIRC the exact red has been, at least in the anime...: 右代宮戦人の母は右代宮明日夢でる。 Ushiromiya Battler's Mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. 俺は右代宮明日夢から生まれた。 I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu. Having a mother and being born from someone are two different ideas. This is supposed to open up wormholes for the "Jessica isn't Natsuhi's blood daughter" theories. For example, I call my best friend my "mom" in real life (not kidding, real life example). We even are listed as mother and son on Facebook. Was I born from her? No. Does that make me any less of my REAL mother's son? Not really, I still have her blood. |
2010-06-27, 13:24 | Link #11798 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Beatrice: "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler." Battler: "Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." Battler: "It was from Ushiromiya ~~Asumu that I was born.~~" Beatrice - "You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son." Battler - "Ange is, ...my little sister." Notice that "Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son" does NOT follow necessarily from this set if it refers to the Other Battler, so the Other Battler can still be male if it wants. In fact, no specific information about the Other Battler may be concluded other than that a creature like this has to exist or have existed. What does inevitably follow is:
We still can't say anything about the Other Battler, and the Other Battler is highly dangerous because it poisons the formal context -- no red that mentions Battler can be trusted while this monster is around. There has to be some other clever way to solve the paradox of "My name is X but I am not X."
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2010-06-27, 13:35 | Link #11799 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
For reference, here's the original Japanese for all of this mess: Quote:
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2010-06-27, 13:36 | Link #11800 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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TTR - I'm using the game red texts, which clearly indicate that a Ushiromiya Battler was born from a Ushiromiya Asumu. In a nutshell, we do have a Battler who was born from Asumu.
Oliver - This does indeed come down to an issue of the red text. Can a red text be wrong? Because there are two statements said about Battler not being Asumu's son. One way to look at it is indeed to go for the contextual argument that implies THIS Battler is not Asumu's son. But the fact that it is mentioned twice, that it says Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son in ADDITION to Battler is not Asumu's son that makes me worry.(these two reds are used by Ange to snap Battler out of it, it's in the wiki if you think I am messing them up or something) Sure, you could say that it's referring merely to the Battler we know and love. But, however, that is not quite the case. The series of red texts, including the two critical ones I listed, state that Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu, and paradoxically, Battler is not Asumu's son. Plain and simple, the red text would be wrong if there is a Battler who is Asumu's son. If the texts used referred to Battler in the second person only, I'd agree with you, but we have these troubling third person texts that make a Battler being a son of Asumu more or less break the red text. Period. I believe the child in question being a female solves this problem quite neatly. Any other approach doesn't make too much sense. |
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