(L) Dragonball Kai: Dragonball Z's 20th Anniversary Recut!!

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

They're not weaker than Freeza by a long shot. Freeza was taken down by a first-timer SS1. The androids couldn't be defeated by Gohan, Vegeta or Trunks, and they were all Super Saiyans. No matter how 'weak' they were compared to the androids from the regular timeline, they were clearly not as weak as Frieza. That just wouldn't make sense. At all.

Perhaps Freeza underestimated him. But what about how easily he was dispatched? One sword strike and it was over. The androids in History of Trunks could avoid and or grab the sword. What about Frieza? If he was as strong as you make it sound, he could've brought his mechanical arm up and defended himself if he was fast enough to parry the blow. He wasn't. And he was in final form.

If you mean to say he was waiting to be struck by a sword, his look of absolute fear didn't make it look like he intended it to happen.

Then King Cold comes in and assumes the sword actually defeated his son. He has no reason to be underestimating Trunks. He is dispatched with one Ki blast and begging for his life before the next one ends him.

I'm sorry, I really couldn't care less about power levels. They mean nothing at this stage. Saying Frieza could put up a fight is baseless. Nothing even hints that he was able to do it except fanmade numbers, fanmade logic and fanmade interpretation.

aka I'm done here.

While I agree with most of what you said... isn't the Special "History of Trunks" kinda filler?

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

While I agree with most of what you said... isn't the Special "History of Trunks" kinda filler?

Your point being? Gohan and Vegeta still died. Trunks couldn't defeat the Androids, even as SS1. And Freeza was still dead meat.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Training and recovering from battle are the two things that increase a saiyan's power. Increased exposure to SSJ only makes it easier and more natural to enter that state.

Well, that's kind of what I meant... I don't think he was reading the paper on that alien planet in SSJ mode, more likely he was training. El_Frenchie fleshed out the rest of my argument for me so I'll just direct you to his post..

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

They're not weaker than Freeza by a long shot. Freeza was taken down by a first-timer SS1. The androids couldn't be defeated by Gohan, Vegeta or Trunks, and they were all Super Saiyans. No matter how 'weak' they were compared to the androids from the regular timeline, they were clearly not as weak as Frieza. That just wouldn't make sense. At all.

Perhaps Freeza underestimated him. But what about how easily he was dispatched? One sword strike and it was over. The androids in History of Trunks could avoid and or grab the sword. What about Frieza? If he was as strong as you make it sound, he could've brought his mechanical arm up and defended himself if he was fast enough to parry the blow. He wasn't. And he was in final form.

If you mean to say he was waiting to be struck by a sword, his look of absolute fear didn't make it look like he intended it to happen.

Saying Frieza could put up a fight is baseless. Nothing even hints that he was able to do it except fanmade numbers, fanmade logic and fanmade interpretation.

I fully acknowledge that my argument is entirely speculation. But the fact of the matter is that Freeza didn't use his full power. I concede that he would still lose, but I strongly doubt that he would get dominated.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

Then King Cold comes in and assumes the sword actually defeated his son. He has no reason to be underestimating Trunks. He is dispatched with one Ki blast and begging for his life before the next one ends him.

What do you mean he has no reason to underestimate Trunks? You just said what King Cold believed to be the reason for his son's death: the sword. He took said sword from Trunks, so no longer believed him to be even the mildest of threats.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

While I agree with most of what you said... isn't the Special "History of Trunks" kinda filler?

Most of it, but it was still adapted into the manga (or vice versa, not sure which happened first in this case). Though if I recall, in the manga right before Gohan dies A17 tells him that he hasn't even been fighting with half of his power in any of their previous battles. Then Gohan dies.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Well, that's kind of what I meant... I don't think he was reading the paper on that alien planet in SSJ mode, more likely he was training. El_Frenchie fleshed out the rest of my argument for me so I'll just direct you to his post..

The most he could train would just be to get used to being a SSJ. Goku admitted himself that the Yaldrats weren't a strong race at all, but had a myriad of interesting techniques.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by GDB

What do you mean he has no reason to underestimate Trunks? You just said what King Cold believed to be the reason for his son's death: the sword. He took said sword from Trunks, so no longer believed him to be even the mildest of threats.

Hm. Perhaps I should rephrase. He's seen him stop Freeza's blasts single-handedly. He was surely underestimating Trunk's potential, but I don't think he was going easy on him with that sword strike and the subsequent struggle to force it down on the saiyan. Not by a long shot. As stupid as he may be, holding back just doesn't make sense in this case.

[LuckyCat]

I always assumed Trunks caught them so completely off-guard they couldn't recover quick enough.

One thing about this Trunks is, unlike the other heroes, he isn't very sporting. Later we see examples of this like him not wanting to see Perfect Cell, and his eagerness to give Goku a sensu bean during the Cell Games in hope of just ending it.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Shiosai

I always assumed Trunks caught them so completely off-guard they couldn't recover quick enough.

One thing about this Trunks is, unlike the other heroes, he isn't very sporting. Later we see examples of this like him not wanting to see Perfect Cell, and his eagerness to give Goku a sensu bean during the Cell Games in hope of just ending it.

That's what makes him awesome. It's refreshing to see at least one Saiyan who doesn't fuck around and actually tries to get things done as quickly instead of letting his thirst for battle and pride and overconfidence get in the way.

Yeah it might make him less sporting, but with his background it makes perfect sense. Dude's freaking traumatized, and has learned that he has to be ruthless in battle himself if he wants to avoid seeing everyone he knows get killed again.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by GDB

The most he could train would just be to get used to being a SSJ. Goku admitted himself that the Yaldrats weren't a strong race at all, but had a myriad of interesting techniques.

I'd say he squeezed something in, this is Goku we're talking about here. He's had plenty of power-ups in the past without anything but good old solo training (especially in Dragonball).

[GDB]

But in Dragonball, he often fought random people or was at least able to stop and train for a good period of time. Here, he'd be learning Instant Transmission and getting used to being a SSJ during the time he wasn't traveling. And by the time you're going SSJ, how much can you do without proper equipment or sparring partners?

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by GDB

But in Dragonball, he often fought random people or was at least able to stop and train for a good period of time. Here, he'd be learning Instant Transmission and getting used to being a SSJ during the time he wasn't traveling. And by the time you're going SSJ, how much can you do without proper equipment or sparring partners?

Agreed. There's nothing that indicates Goku got substantially stronger after coming back from Yardrat. As far as we know, he only learned the instantaneous movement technique and how to better control his SS form. He's comparable to how he was when he fought Freeza on Namek.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by GDB

And by the time you're going SSJ, how much can you do without proper equipment or sparring partners?

Do we really know for sure that the Yardrat's planet didn't have any training equipment? Let's say they didn't, it's possible to build some equipment for Goku as well. Fact of the matter is that we don't know what Goku went through on that planet aside from learning the "Instant Transmission." I would like to think that Goku was able to get stronger while being away for so long, while it might not be substantial, I believe he still found a way to improve his abilities.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Agreed. There's nothing that indicates Goku got substantially stronger after coming back from Yardrat. As far as we know, he only learned the instantaneous movement technique and how to better control his SS form. He's comparable to how he was when he fought Freeza on Namek.

While it might be true that Goku didn't get substantially stronger, there's nothing that really indicates that he didn't get stronger. All we know is that the Yardrat race aren't really strong physically, but it seems they have strong mental capabilities (E.g. - Instant Transmission and who knows what else.) I'm sure Goku can find a way to train himself no matter where he is.

[ChainLegacy]

He was there over a year, just doesn't seem likely he didn't do any training at all. Also we have to consider this fact: in Trunks's timeline, Goku somehow beat both Freeza and Cold, who is said to be equal or greater than his son. He definitely couldn't have done that without improving.

[GDB]

Well, he only learned the one technique, and it's a difficult enough technique that he didn't teach it to anyone else (...on purpose), so he may have had his hands full with just that.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

He was there over a year, just doesn't seem likely he didn't do any training at all. Also we have to consider this fact: in Trunks's timeline, Goku somehow beat both Freeza and Cold, who is said to be equal or greater than his son. He definitely couldn't have done that without improving.

Why not? He completely overshadowed Frieza the first time. However much stronger Frieza may have gotten, Goku compensated by not being badly beaten before transforming. All he would have to do is not hold back and he'd likely annihilate at least one of them before the battle truly started.

[ChainLegacy]

I disagree, I think Freeza was confident Cold's help would be enough judging from Goku's original battle with him. They wouldn't be underestimating Goku like you said they were with Trunks, so we can assume they were going all out from the start and still lost.

[Albafica]

Ok I watched episode 56, my first episode of Dragon Ball kai, because I loved this episode in Dragon Ball Z so I wanted to see what it looks like in Kai! But... what the hell! I waited for the awesome moment with the soundtrack "Battle Point Unlimited", I was very disappointed . And the moment when Trunks kills Freeza's henchmen, the soundtrack changed too.

Not epic at all .

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I disagree, I think Freeza was confident Cold's help would be enough judging from Goku's original battle with him. They wouldn't be underestimating Goku like you said they were with Trunks, so we can assume they were going all out from the start and still lost.

Freeza miscalculated. Trunks said that Goku could have defeated both of them easily. And again, nothing implies that he got a significant power boost on Yardrat. Goku said that since there wasn't enough time, they only taught him one technique, and that it took him a lot of effort to master it. That being said, the majority, if not all, of his time on Yardrat was spent on him acquiring the instantaneous movement. Therefore, he wouldn't have gotten much stronger.

[GDB]

Frieza's so incredibly cocky that he still couldn't accept that he was weaker than Goku even after his arm, lower torso, legs, and half of his tail had been sliced off. As soon as Goku showed him mercy he struck again, since he refused to accept defeat.

The same likely applies here. As soon as he woke up in Mecha form he wanted to go to Earth to confront Goku again. There's no way he could tell how much stronger he had gotten, if at all, after just a few seconds of consciousness.

[ChainLegacy]

I understand you two feel that way but I'm just not convinced; if Goku was only slightly stronger than Freeza's 100% on Namek (which is debatable actually, they seemed closer to equal until Freeza's power ran out), there is no way he could beat both Freeza and Cold without having gotten a little stronger. He sure looks stronger to me in the episode that is going to air this weekend, deflecting Trunks's sword with his finger and all. Even with Freeza being cocky, he was already in his final form, the mech probably gave him some power, and his father who is his equal or superior was there with him... just too many factor to make me think Son did no improving.

[GDB]

He wasn't just a "bit" stronger than Frieza on Namek, he was 25% stronger (150,000,000 / 120,000,000 = 1.25). That's a larger power gap than Nappa vs Piccolo (4000 vs 3500, making Nappa only 14% stronger than Piccolo).