Cultural reactions to sexual portrayals in anime

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

I love how people in this thread and throughout this board crucify and hang countless others whom they have never met at all just because of cultural bias based on the entertainment they enjoy

I don't like loli-centric stuff in general purely because most tend to be quite crappy but I say this. You think the average otaku who loves this stuff is more dangerous than your respected upright member of society who has probably sacked god knows how many of his peers (as a starting point)?

We are not bloody talking about child rapists and murderers here for fucks sake. Or people who enjoy blood games


You may say you disapprove of a certain type of fiction but behind that, you dare say you aren't judging those who enjoy it as well?

Again, the rash of no-plot loli stuff gets on my nerves but not more so than such holier-than-thou attitudes.

I'd +1 your post if I could.

Just because someone likes something you don't like doesn't mean they're a horrible person. I know people who are really into leather and BDSM, even though that weirds me out, I don't think anything less of them as people.

Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

[Wanderer Blue]

My guess would be that Europeans like the Japanese don't see overt sexuality as taboo, i mean i noticed that European programming is alot more open to nudity. I don't think anyone supports child molestation but i just think for them its a little easier to overlook the sexualization of young characters. That's my guess.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Wanderer Blue

My guess would be that Europeans like the Japanese don't see overt sexuality as taboo, i mean i noticed that European programming is alot more open to nudity. I don't think anyone supports child molestation but i just think for them its a little easier to overlook the sexualization of young characters. That's my guess.

It depends on the country. I think Sweden recently banned loli depictions.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I'd +1 your post if I could.

Just because someone likes something you don't like doesn't mean they're a horrible person.

And just because someone finds lolicon disturbing and/or disgusting doesn't mean they're a prude. Are you and Cosmic Eagle willing to agree to that?

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And just because someone finds lolicon disturbing and/or disgusting doesn't mean they're a prude. Are you and Cosmic Eagle willing to agree to that?

Totally. I don't care for BDSM and I don't consider myself a prude, neither do my friends who engage in this sort of bedroom activity.

[Wanderer Blue]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

It depends on the country. I think Sweden recently banned loli depictions.

That's true enough, but i think its safe to say that european programming can be more risque its american counterpart or so i've read.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Obviously this is not something unique to anime/manga or to the 21st century. Genji Monogatari is a thousand years old, after all. (There's a reason why Kuhouin Murasaki is called Murasaki.) Perhaps there's an equally long history of sexualized children in Western media that I am unaware of, but if so, it's been kept pretty suppressed. I suspect Catholicism in medieval Europe and later has something to do with this.

Well, since you sort of lobbed the ball out there, I will say this... It seems to me that a lot of Western culture/religion is indeed based on denying/suppressing things that are considered sinful and making it as if having those feelings is a bottomless pit of despair from which there is no escape (presumably except through repentance and changing your ways). I'm reminded a bit of the movie American Beauty where the protagonist is trying to deal with his forbidden lust for a (clearly-portrayed-as-sexually-attractive) teenager. The stereotypical Western cultural response is: those feelings aren't normal, they aren't healthy, pretend they don't exist, and (in the movie) it drives the protagonist into a pit of despair (though, of course, there are many also other reasons for that). This is despite the fact that, on the flip side, society also doesn't seem to shy away from the sexual portrayal of teenagers in fashion and the media, which ostensibly presents a rather odd dichotomy (like our eyes/brain can know to not find something attractive just because it's on one side or another of a certain line, whether you agree with the good reasons for the line or not).

It seems to me that the approach we see in "anime culture", anyway, is a bit less dogmatic: feelings are feelings, and exploring them in a fictional setting is okay, even if (and particularly given) you can't and wouldn't explore it in real life. However, this takes you into the abyss-filled territory of "the line between fiction and reality", and the balance between "personal responsibility to know the difference" and "society's responsibility to step in for those people who can't tell the difference". It's not uncommon in these sorts of discussions for people to be less concerned with their own reaction to the content, but more concerned that there may potentially be other people out there attracted to this content and who may, therefore, lose sight of the line between fiction and reality. These fears aren't entirely rational, but the sense of risk/danger is intense and personal (particularly when you're talking about parents with young children).

Anyway, I don't like this discussion because, as I said before, no matter what you say it can be perceived as a form of extremism, and make it seem like you're supporting or advocating something you would absolutely never support or advocate. But, at the same time, I don't think dogmatism provides the answers to these murky questions, even if dogmatism is what causes the questions to seldom be asked.

[SeijiSensei]

I was trying to ask a largely empirical question about the portrayal of children in modern Japanese culture writ large. Nearly all my experience with Japanese culture consists of exposure to anime and, to a much lesser degree, exposure to Japanese art in museums.

I don't think Toddlers to Tiara is especially relevant here just as I wouldn't consider the few weird Japanese game shows I've seen relevant either. I'm trying to ask a broader, perhaps more "academic," question about differences between Japanese and Western cultures. I'm actually a bit more interested in "high" culture. Lolita was seen as beyond the pale when it was published in the mid-1950s. (So was Tropic of Cancer I believe.) Would an equivalent story by a Japanese novelist have generated the same outrage then? Today?

[Wanderer Blue]

To be honest it is a pretty interesting question to ask, its now a question whose answer i'd like to know myself.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

deviant, but not more than let's say necrophilia and feet fetishism.

Did you really just compare necrophilia with feet fetishism? The latter is a fairly common fetish, while the former would shock even the most desensitized viewers...

[NoemiChan]

I think this discussion be more intense if we include adult anime that actually portrait loli looking adult girls engaging in sexual acts....

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Would an equivalent story by a Japanese novelist have generated the same outrage then?

Yes.

Naomi:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Naomi met with controversy upon its publication. When Osaka Morning News published it in 1924, opposite reactions to the novel arose from two different demographics. The younger generation embraced the modan garu lifestyle embodied by Naomi, who provided a role model for independent young women in the Japan's cities. However, the character's aggressive sexuality and manipulation portrayed shocked the older generation of Japanese, who deemed the story was too obscene and risqué to be published. The Osaka Morning News pulled the story due to the extensive pressure put on them by their readers. However, due to the popularity of the story, the magazine Female picked up the story from Tanizaki and published the remaining parts of the novel.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Today?

Given the battles legally in Japan recently over the censorship of "underage" media, I'd say yes.

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I think this discussion be more intense if we include adult anime that actually portrait loli looking adult girls engaging in sexual acts....

I think if that's the best you can offer this discussion, you should find somewhere else to post.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Totally. I don't care for BDSM and I don't consider myself a prude, neither do my friends who engage in this sort of bedroom activity.

That's cool then. I'm glad we could come to a mutual understanding here.

[Asf]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

I just can't imagine anyone sitting down to watch that and being "ok" with it.

Eh, I feel neither shocked nor titillated by the "ancient vampire with a little girl's body" thing. It's just silly. Also really old hat now.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I was trying to ask a largely empirical question about the portrayal of children in modern Japanese culture writ large. Nearly all my experience with Japanese culture consists of exposure to anime and, to a much lesser degree, exposure to Japanese art in museums.

I don't think Toddlers to Tiara is especially relevant here just as I wouldn't consider the few weird Japanese game shows I've seen relevant either. I'm trying to ask a broader, perhaps more "academic," question about differences between Japanese and Western cultures. I'm actually a bit more interested in "high" culture. Lolita was seen as beyond the pale when it was published in the mid-1950s. (So was Tropic of Cancer I believe.) Would an equivalent story by a Japanese novelist have generated the same outrage then? Today?

Except Toddlers to Tiara is considered mainstream in the states. The ratings are high enough for it have ran for 8 seasons (consider how many shows are cancelled after 1 or 2) and spawned a bunch of copycats. It's constantly featured in mainstream news outlets.

In comparison, Anime is already a niche hobby in Japan. The loli anime that we're talking about here is a niche within a niche. Those weird game shows that you referenced are far more popular with the general Japanese audience than these anime.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Solace

I think if that's the best you can offer this discussion, you should find somewhere else to post.

yeah.. That's another level...

[Pocari_Sweat]

If it's fiction and you don't act out whatever weird fetish or sexual preferences you have in the real world, then who cares. You're a closeted gay person who likes little boys? Cool, just don't act them out in the real world and I have no problem with you. Also don't come up to me and be obsessive about said "material" because I won't care.

You like rape pictures of little girls in schoolgirl uniforms in anime style? Cool, just don't go thinking you can get away with doing that with actual school girls or try to get me interested in that type of ficitional material. Otherwise, to me it's free game. Why should someone or something filter how you want to use your imagination or masturbatory material if you're keeping quiet about it to yourself.

[Tyabann]

Being offended is fine. Expecting others to be as offended as you is not.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Being offended is fine. Expecting others to be as offended as you is not.

And on the same wavelength, liking something is fine, expecting others to do as much as you and then murdering them verbally if an opinion is different is not.

[backbone]

Does the phrase "You're what you eat" apply to the fanservice fans?

No offense, just asking.