Claymore Chapter 109

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Newhope

Because it's typical Shonen writing they'll go to save her where they'll either have to kill her which will lead to a new leader or sacrifice somebody to save her(probably Tabitha)which with sake Miria which will lead her to leading properly which will lead to a proper war against the ORG, as I said before chapter 107 had haha fool you written all over it.

Oh come on, that's just silly; the last thing we should be doing is start thinking like that and bringing up references, examples, etc etc...all it does is dilute the manga.

Miria is dead; we saw it happen plain as day, it's just wishful thinking on their part.

The only person they are going to meet at Staff is gonna be Raki no doubt, and perhaps, Raftela and the new Twins.

[seiftis]

Originally Posted by Ryus

You don't even know what god that is.

I'll just bring Haruhi in. [/off-topic]

Until now, I refused to read the chapter Miria was mindf*cked.

[MalakTawus]

I did not see Clare and Priscilla turning into the Blob. So, what does that mean? That not even the Destroyer was powerful enough to kill Priscilla so Clare sealed her away?

You could also see the thing the other way around: Priscilla wasn't strong enough to kill Claire the destroyer,and so she was sealed.
Anyway it seems that CtD is indeed a bit stronger than Prissy,or at least on the same level.


Anyway Claire is the hottest.End of discussion,lol.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

How does she get off saying Miria betrayed them? She saved her life more then once for crying out loud. We can analyze and dislike Miria for the reasons for going, but none of us felt that Miria going off on her own is the same as betrayal; stupid, but not betrayal.

Saying something like that doesn't even make any sense, and is worthy of getting a punch in the face.

Actually, it does make perfect sense.

To the Ghosts, it was a betrayal of trust, they trusted Miria to lead them, and Miria was supposed to trust them to fight along side her.

But instead Miria decided to leave them behind to fight the Organization on her own, thus breaking that trust.

It is very much a betrayal in that sense, and that is exactly what Deneve meant.

--

As for it being all but confirmed that Miria may be alive:

1- All the Ghosts seem convinced that she is, and are willing to put their own lives at risk to attempt a rescue; rule of shounen (and storytelling in general) makes her survival a LOT more likely.

2- The ending caption of the chapter outright says they are headed towards a decisive battle against the organization to save Miria, this is also a direct suggestion that Miria is indeed alive by the author himself.

Of course, Claymore being what it is, it is also quite possible she will be dead/or worse, but the possibility is very much back on the table that she lives.

I don't know why her of all people, I would have voted for Galatea, but she wants to stay behind in Rabona (which I do agree with). Looking at the six remaining Ghosts, none of them really have any leadership qualities and would get my vote; I guess it fell to a measure of strength, and Deneve is among the top.

Deneve is the best choice for leadership at this point. Galatea wants nothing to do with their crusade against the Organization and intends to stay at Rabona.

Clare is in a flesh-ball with Priscilla, Tabitha is still distraught from Miria's supposed death, Helen is too immature/emotional, Cynthia is a death seeker, Yuma has a follower mentality, and Dietrich is still undecided/new.

Deneve makes the most logical choice to take over the leadership role in Miria and Clare's absence. She has the strength to put the other Ghosts in their place when they are being stupid (like Tabitha was), yet still represents the best interests of the Ghosts as a whole.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

You could also see the thing the other way around: Priscilla wasn't strong enough to kill Claire the destroyer,and so she was sealed.
Anyway it seems that CtD is indeed a bit stronger than Prissy,or at least on the same level.


Anyway Claire is the hottest.End of discussion,lol.

It all brings up the question on how Priscilla allowed herself to get captured; she could have easily just blasted and flown out of there, we've seen her show she could.

For all we know, Priscilla let herself get captured; after all, she is (apparently) chasing after Claire as well, so leaving would actually be detrimental.

Time will tell, but I doubt Claire simply overwhelmed Priscilla; it implies that many things concerning power that is just too simplistic for my taste.

Originally Posted by Fenrir

Actually, it does make perfect sense.

To the Ghosts, it was a betrayal of trust, they trusted Miria to lead them, and Miria was supposed to trust them to fight along side her.

But instead Miria decided to leave them behind to fight the Organization on her own, thus breaking that trust.

It is very much a betrayal in that sense, and that is exactly what Deneve meant.

Oh brother, what are they, babies?

Come on Fenrir; it's beyond rational thinking to think such a thing. Don't they even wonder at what could have caused Miria to go off on her own? Haven't they trusted Miria for so long as you say? How weak is this trust for them to assume that she turned her back on them to fight on her own, especially when they know she couldn't do it on her own?

It's beyond childish to think Miria betrayed them.

1- All the Ghosts seem convinced that she is, and are willing to put their own lives at risk to attempt a rescue; rule of shounen (and storytelling in general) makes her survival a LOT more likely

And once again, the whole "shonen" stupidity.

Guys, stop dilluting the story and bringing up conventions like that their's no such thing as "rules" like that. This story hasn't seperated itself from the typical to tie itself to stuff like that; this isn't the anime.

2- The ending caption of the chapter outright says they are headed towards a decisive battle against the organization to save Miria, this is also a direct suggestion that Miria is indeed alive by the author himself.

The only thing the caption does is state outright what they intend to do; that doesn't mean it's even possible. The captions more then once have said things that don't make any sense or contradicted what's happened in the actual story.

The truth is what Deneve outright said, that's it's their hope to find Miria alive because she doesn't want to give up; how on earth could Miria still be alive after we saw her die like she did?

Well? Does anyone have explanations for how Miria could be alive if that seems to be the popular idea?

I can't believe you guys still have this wishful thinking so much; let the dead stay dead. Bringing up her after watching her fall to pieces like that and after all the rage in the last couple of months, only takes the story down several notches in just about every category. That MiB outright says to Dae that the whole situation was "petty"; if she was captured or something like that happened, he would have said something.

As for Deneve taking over, I can see the reasons why, though I think it just has more to do with strength; regardless, she's sadly not what I would think of as leadership-material, though their's nothing that can be done about it.

[irvinethearcher]

It seems no one gets that PERHAPS dae was late because of miria. So she is alive but probably captive perhaps showing something of interest for dae?

[Fenrir_valindri]

It is quite possible Clare realized that Priscilla is basically immortal due to her insane regenerative powers, and simply opted to trap her entirely.

As for why Priscilla can't break out, there are several possibilities:

1- The Destroyer is physically powerful enough to trap her in place by using all of its strength.

2 - Priscilla's mobility is limited due to the destroyer engulfing her, she simply can't move enough to break herself free.

3 - Mental shenanigans is taking place like Clare w/ Raphaela, and Priscilla is in a coma like state.

@irvinethearcher;

I find that unlikely personally, because Dae seem confused as to why the Organization looked like a mess upon his arrival.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

It all brings up the question on how Priscilla allowed herself to get captured; she could have easily just blasted and flown out of there, we've seen her show she could.

For all we know, Priscilla let herself get captured; after all, she is (apparently) chasing after Claire as well, so leaving would actually be detrimental.

Time will tell, but I doubt Claire simply overwhelmed Priscilla; it implies that many things concerning power that is just too simplistic for my taste.

Possible,but i really doubt it.
I don't see why Prissy would let herself get sealed like that,it's not a very wise move....especially since she had already accepted that she would have killed the destroyer as a substitute for Claire,so no,imo she didn't let herself get captured,simply she couldn't escape from Ctd.
Prissy is surely uber-strong,but she's not invincible.
....and btw for all we know it's highly possible that the battle between Claire and Prissy is going on in the soul-world......and if that's what's really happening,it seems that Claire and Prissy are equal in power since there is still no winner.

[Ryus]

Random thought...

What if Clare didn't try to keep her and Priscilla trapped so neither could harm people but is just trying to slowly absorb Priscilla in order to kill her? Hard to put to words but Priscilla is so strong The Destroyer can't absorb her quickly enough to ensure victory... so Clare choose to trap her mind and merge bodies so she could absorb the body when Priscilla is distracted trying to free her mind.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Possible,but i really doubt it.
I don't see why Prissy would let herself get sealed like that,it's not a very wise move....especially since she had already accepted that she would have killed the destroyer as a substitute for Claire,so no,imo she didn't let herself get captured,simply she couldn't escape from Ctd.
Prissy is surely uber-strong,but she's not invincible.

How on earth is Raciella stronger though? We saw her easily blast her apart.

Claire doesn't add much strength either, unless we are dealing with the whole "blackbox" stuff which is still just speculation and stretches.

I think we'll get our answers pretty soon though.

3 - Mental shenanigans is taking place like Clare w/ Raphaela, and Priscilla is in a coma like state

This; we're definitely leading up to a mental battle.

What if Clare didn't try to keep her and Priscilla trapped so neither could harm people but is just trying to slowly absorb Priscilla in order to kill her? Hard to put to words but Priscilla is so strong The Destroyer can't absorb her quickly enough to ensure victory... so Clare choose to trap her mind and merge bodies so she could absorb the body when Priscilla is distracted trying to free her mind.
__________________

I don't know Ryus....something like that sounds like it could take forever.....her power is just too much. Absorbing her in such a manner could take a looong time, not to mention their's no guarentee that Claire could escape anyway.

I'm still trying to figure out how Claire could "control" Raciella anyway; that part still boggles my mind. The way people describe it...it's like Raciella is a car and all you had to do was get inside to drive it 0_o .

[Newhope]

The chapter just shows the Destroyer isn't powerful enough to destory Priscilla but is strong enough to contain her, Claire probably figure that out and decided to become a living prison.

[An4rchy99]

Well, though a bit heavy on the dialogue, this is a great chapter. It seems even Miria might be alive...

So indeed Prissy was in the blob after all... I think Prissy was too cocky, and when all the Destroyer matter compressed, it was far too dense for her to break out. We saw the mass of it... so its like a mountain collapsing to a boulder. Some how, I find it strange that Galatae did not mention a third yoki. This would almost certainly mean that Clare has managed to absorb all the yoki of Destroyer.

I guess this would mean that the fight was never over. I doubt a mental battle is on going. If it was, it should be more unstable. Or atleast more vibrant (as with Raph's case).

Interesting to note about Diet. So indeed she was blindly following the org. Nothing more to push on that.

btw. Did Yagi just improve the cleavage on Deneve or what?
ps. does this chapter mean next one is in 2 months time?

[Battler-kun]

Gogo Priscilla!

I pray for you!

[Battler-kun]

Raki obviously will play the major role in freeing Claire again.

[Shiek927]

No Ophy, Galatea mentioned Raciella; she said "Claire and something else..."

I guess this would mean that the fight was never over. I doubt a mental battle is on going. If it was, it should be more unstable. Or atleast more vibrant (as with Raph's case).

I don't know....Rafaela was specifically calling for Claire, which is why only Claire was affected; in this case, nobody inside this thing is calling for anybody so it makes sense why anything going on in their isn't affecting anyone on the outside.

Time will definitely answer all our questions on this topic.

Newhope, that sounds plausible; like Galatea said, Claire probably knows getting out means freeing Priscilla as well, so she won't let herself get freed. She seems resigned to letting herself to torture and wittle Priscilla away in this "prison".

Which all but confirms that the only way we will ever see either again, is if either Priscilla escapes, or if Claire willfully allows to release Priscilla when she attempts to get out; more likely the latter will happen, if we are to ever see her again in the real world.

btw. Did Yagi just improve the cleavage on Deneve or what?

I think he did; on her and on Tabitha .

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by An4rchy99

Well, though a bit heavy on the dialogue, this is a great chapter. It seems even Miria might be alive...

So indeed Prissy was in the blob after all... I think Prissy was too cocky, and when all the Destroyer matter compressed, it was far too dense for her to break out. We saw the mass of it... so its like a mountain collapsing to a boulder. Some how, I find it strange that Galatae did not mention a third yoki. This would almost certainly mean that Clare has managed to absorb all the yoki of Destroyer.

I guess this would mean that the fight was never over. I doubt a mental battle is on going. If it was, it should be more unstable. Or atleast more vibrant (as with Raph's case).

Interesting to note about Diet. So indeed she was blindly following the org. Nothing more to push on that.

btw. Did Yagi just improve the cleavage on Deneve or what?
ps. does this chapter mean next one is in 2 months time?

No This ch was in the December issue... so next ch is in the January issue. Mags run a month ahead, so the January issue gets released in the beginning of December.

Next off Galatea did mention 3 being... so even though she didn't say 3 yoki's she some how knew another force played a role.

Spoiler for image:

The lack of a 3rd yoki being mentioned could mean that Clare's yoki is in sync with the other being... so Galatea could only read one yoki wave length that wasn't Priscilla's. Now as to what there yoki wave lengths matching means is the question...

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Oh brother, what are they, babies?

Come on Fenrir; it's beyond rational thinking to think such a thing. Don't they even wonder at what could have caused Miria to go off on her own? Haven't they trusted Miria for so long as you say? How weak is this trust for them to assume that she turned her back on them to fight on her own, especially when they know she couldn't do it on her own?

It's beyond childish to think Miria betrayed them.

But it is a sound train of thought, it is far from childish to think Miria betrayed them, when she effectively did.

She didn't betray them in the sense she defected to another side, she betrayed them by not trusting them. They have gone through over 7 years off hardship together and trusted each other with their lives.

Yet in Deneve's eyes, Miria effectively abandoned them because she didn't trust them enough, which is completely true in this case. Miria didn't trust them to be able to fight and potentially kill other warriors, and left them behind as a result. Effectively spitting on their friendship as a result.

I know if I swore to fight and die besides someone and they left me behind because they couldn't trust me to get the job done, I'd feel pretty damn betrayed myself.

And once again, the whole "shonen" stupidity.

Guys, stop dilluting the story and bringing up conventions like that their's no such thing as "rules" like that. This story hasn't seperated itself from the typical to tie itself to stuff like that; this isn't the anime.

I disagree, there are many elements that are effectively "rules" in almost any form of story telling.

Despite its unexpected twists and great story telling, Claymore still has a great number of "stereotypical" story elements and twists. This could just be one of those events that fall into the "stereotypical" element.

The only thing the caption does is state outright what they intend to do; that doesn't mean it's even possible. The captions more then once have said things that don't make any sense or contradicted what's happened in the actual story.

I'll also point out that we have no actual confirmation of Miria's death. We saw her get hacked up, but we have seen characters in terrible condition survive supposed fatal wounds as well.

The truth is what Deneve outright said, that's it's their hope to find Miria alive because she doesn't want to give up; how on earth could Miria still be alive after we saw her die like she did?

How did the Ghosts survive the war in the North?

How the hell is Clare still alive after being TORN IN HALF?

How is Raki alive when he got hit by a rod that consumed all other humans, and turned the strongest warrior of the Organization into an Awakened Being?

The answer to the above is easy; because plot demands it. If Yagi wants to keep Miria alive for a dramatic battle/rescue, then he is fully capable of creating a reason for it.

-----

In a story were characters are capable of regeneration and enhanced levels of regeneration exists through Yoki, it is entirely possible she could survive that incident.

Heck, Ophielia survived being blenderized by Irene long enough to get away and awaken because she was pissed off.
I don't see why a powerful Warrior like Miria couldn't have survived such injuries, so long as they didn't cut off her head.

------

Heck, I could think of a couple of reasons for the Organization to keep her alive:

1- Study/Experimentation

Miria was ranked #6 and sent on a suicide mission 7 years ago, but has returned with the strength to nearly topple the Organization by herself. I'd imagine they would like to know how the hell that is possible, and if they could replicate the results in their future warriors.

2-Interrogation

They realize that Miria has comrades that are unaccounted for, and will want to know where they are, their strength and abilities. It is quite possible (especially with girl-aizen) that they could extract such vital information from her.

[MalakTawus]

How on earth is Raciella stronger though? We saw her easily blast her apart.

Claire doesn't add much strength either, unless we are dealing with the whole "blackbox" stuff which is still just speculation and stretches.

Who said that Claire doesn't add al ot of strenght?
It's absolutely possible for Claire to be even stronger than Priscilla,but anyway since we can't prove anyting about this atm it's best to avoid this discussion.
On the other hand,it's quite obvious that even if Priscilla allowed herself to be captured like you said (and i don't belive this),it means that she did so to fight against Claire,following this logic this means that Claire and Prissy are fighting in the soul-world and that Prissy and Claire are equal in strenght 'cause if Prissy was indeed stronger she would have destroyed Claire and taken control of the situation....but it's a fact that this isn't happening.

I don't know....Rafaela was specifically calling for Claire, which is why only Claire was affected; in this case, nobody inside this thing is calling for anybody so it makes sense why anything going on in their isn't affecting anyone on the outside.

Agree 100% on this.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Ryus

The lack of a 3rd yoki being mentioned could mean that Clare's yoki is in sync with the other being... so Galatea could only read one yoki wave length. Now as to what there yoki wave lengths matching means is the question...

Giving it some thought....it could be that Raciella feels a connection with Claire in that it senses Rafaela inside of her, which it wants in order to feel more "whole" and "complete", which could explain why they "worked together".

I won't say control, but I just don't understand how Claire could control Raciella yet; if their was an quid pro quo sort of thing, It makes more sense.

Or maybe it's nothing like this at all; Priscilla went after Raciella; perhaps Claire simply lost herself and it was Raciella alone who captured Priscilla.

Their's still alot of questions and confusion surrounding this whole thing, we only got the surface today; time will definitely answer more on what exactly is going on around here.

But it is a sound train of thought, it is far from childish to think Miria betrayed them, when she effectively did.

She didn't betray them in the sense she defected to another side, she betrayed them by not trusting them. They have gone through over 7 years off hardship together and trusted each other with their lives.

Yet in Deneve's eyes, Miria effectively abandoned them because she didn't trust them enough, which is completely true in this case. Miria didn't trust them to be able to fight and potentially kill other warriors, and left them behind as a result.

Betray is simply too strong of a word; It's not that Miria didn't trust them, she simply thought she was doing them all a favor. The idea of looking at her like an overbearing parent comes back. It's grossly wrong to say something like that; Miria was so completely stupid for doing what she did, but in the end, she did it for them.

They just don't know any better.

I disagree, there are many elements that are effectively "rules" in almost any form of story telling.

Despite its unexpected twists and great story telling, Claymore still has a great number of "stereotypical" story elements and twists. This could just be one of those events that fall into the "stereotypical" element.

Fenrir, I just flat-out disagree.

The whole thing just makes me shake my head; all people have right now is wishful thinking. Relying on stereotype to support your idea is about as basic as you can go.

Give me proof; don't just say that another story did something similar which is why.

I'll also point out that we have no actual confirmation of Miria's death. We saw her get hacked up, but we have seen characters in terrible condition survive supposed fatal wounds as well.

I say again; isn't that MiB's words also proof enough? If they had captured her, he would have said something, but the most he said was that the whole thing was "petty" and not important. Sounds to me like the whole thing has been dealt with; hence, she's a goner.

As for your reasons why you think Miria can be dead; what about Isley, do you think he could still be alive because we also only saw him get cut up? We also heard his final thoughts and, as whole, the whole thing was very very similar to the treatment Miria got. Saying he might be alive is just the same; wishful thinking.

Yeah, their are reasons why capturing her would have had it's merits, but the MiB's assessment of the whole situation ("Petty, unimportant") says otherwise on how they handled the situation, probably because they have more important things at their disposal now (Raki).

By no means am I bashing Miria; I just don't see any reason to assume she is alive, and I'm definitely not going to chalk it up to something cheap and basic as plot-devices or stereotypes when their's just no logic in them. If Miria really is still alive, after everything we saw in fine detail....frankly, the whole story is going down a few notches for appeasing to fans like that, especially after teasing them to the point of going RAAAAGE for two months.

----

Originally Posted by Malak

Who said that Claire doesn't add al ot of strenght?
It's absolutely possible for Claire to be even stronger than Priscilla,but anyway since we can't prove anyting about this atm it's best to avoid this discussion.

Yeah, I'm not getting into that with you again Malak

On the other hand,it's quite obvious that even if Priscilla allowed herself to be captured like you said (and i don't belive this),it means that she did so to fight against Claire,following this logic this means that Claire and Prissy are fighting in the soul-world and that Prissy and Claire are equal in strenght 'cause if Prissy was indeed stronger she would have destroyed Claire and taken control of the situation....but it's a fact that this isn't happening.

Hasn't Newhope also said though that this was a battle of wills and not merely a battle of power?

Power has alot to do with it, because I believe Claire really was stronger then Rafaela, but the mental world, to be honest, is really "anything goes". For all we know, Priscilla and Claire could be getting glimpses into eachother's minds or even talking to eachother. Teresa and other mental astral projections could be making appearances...

Their is a million reasons why the battle may not have ended yet; Claire however, is definitely not in charge. We'll have to actually see what's going on to go any further on this.

[An4rchy99]

@Shiek927

Hmmm. I guess I would see some other translations to confirm this. Btw, so your saying that Miria being alive is only in the ghosts mind? Well... I wonder why Yagi decided to take them all to the org... it seems its going to have only one outcome... end of org > end of current story, moving on to mainland.... or they all screw up... and suddenly Clare appears (all shounen super hero style) and rescue them... (either way lame for me)

But seriously... I still have doubts Miria actually died in the battle we saw. My bet is on she was mind fracked and thats what we saw. She could be a captive or maybe killed afterwards, we can't be too sure. (oh well, I am hoping for the best or this would be one huge screw for the ghosts)

The chapter just shows the Destroyer isn't powerful enough to destory Priscilla but is strong enough to contain her, Claire probably figure that out and decided to become a living prison.

This is what Gala also explains. Clare is the mind for the huge mass of yoki. So it needs a mind to keep Prissy in there. Still for all of them to bring that mass... wow, they are either very stupid, or very brave, (or a third option might Clare telling them somehow...?)

btw. since we did not see Rubel, he could probably be on some kind of mission to warn off the ghosts? or expecting to meet them before they make contact with the org?

(@Ryus: thnx for the clarification!)oh, well, theres a lot to talk on this chap. will jump in some other time. Have fun, mi'nna