To Aru Majutsu no Index - Character Discussion - Kamijo Touma

[Goldzero]

Originally Posted by allfictions

That wasn't there before, originally, only Uiharu and Harue were in that section. Then some butthurt fan came along and added Touma. Since I didn't want to create an edit war as TvTropes frowned upon these, I counterargued it by pointing out the absurdity of the complaint given that it was originally Touma's story (calmly of course, so that it wasn't reverted back). That's why I registered on TvTropes in the 1st place, because the place was so Railgun sided, I had to tone down a lot of bullshit, and even then I can't change stuff too much.

Be glad you have one of your own over there keeping watch, people.

(Besides, most of the complaints are in "Your Mileage May Vary", which is bound to contain things you disagree with)

that explains it. even though i haven't checked on tv trope much, i notice that it wasn't even there 6 months later despite the series ended. touma and accelerator received far more praised in japan as well.

anyways, thanks for clearing that up. i was stunned when i found that and now that i realize it was by a couple of butthurt fan just makes me only look down on mikoto fans even more after that.

mikoto a lovable and great character but seems to be praised by the wrong people from what i seen(though not all of them are bad though).

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

no he isn't and Touma would never do anything like that, saying he needed to lock himself inside of the bathroom isn't meant to be taken so seriously

even thinking of Touma doing anything sick as rape is ridiculous.

its a scene that might not be taken seriously but its also a scene that shows that he also has urges -_- like a teenage boy of his age >_> and you know temptation is around the corner or in his case is sleeping on his bed that also has tendencies to sleep walk.

totally normal.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

its a scene that might not be taken seriously but its also a scene that shows that he also has urges -_- like a teenage boy of his age >_> and you know temptation is around the corner or in his case is sleeping on his bed that also has tendencies to sleep walk.

totally normal.

Yeah... Kamachi is actually making it realistic... I'm pretty sure it'd be amazing if Touma didn't have that problem and he was realistic at all... while having girls practically throwing themselves at him.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by dniv

Yeah... Kamachi is actually making it realistic... I'm pretty sure it'd be amazing if Touma didn't have that problem and he was realistic at all... while having girls practically throwing themselves at him.

the girls throwing themselves at him is a controlled or public environment.

its also totally normal to be embarrass in that situation. Its realistic reaction for a virgin, no girlfriend/single teenage boy

though his denseness is a bit unrealistic but aside from that. Its good.

Normally. YOU will question why are they doing this thing and even if you start questioning then there are doubts or stupid teenage ideas. But so far. None. Denseness of harem's lead at its best form.

[GodlyKyon]

Originally Posted by allfictions

It's not even in relation to Touma that I'm saying that. It's really just Hamazura as a character.

(as an aside, "GIVE ME BACK MY SCREENTIME" is, funnily enough, the kind of complaints I saw from Railgun-only fans when Touma appears)

Take WWIII for example. In it, hiage's involvement just tends to drag the focus away from the only compelling parts. I hardly found within myself to care in his parts (almost skipped them, but I have far too much dedication).

Better than Accelerator's road to redemption? Not really, no.

Again, how?

His plot armor is thicker than Touma's.

Touma, at least has the Imagine Breaker to justify fighting the guys he does.

Shiage doesn't even have that, and yet he wins against Mugino(who's stronger if less versatile than Misaka) three times. The first time, it was okay, and damn awesom. Afterwards...

Shiage is supposed to be mundane, but does not come off as such. If you're doing mundane, they need to be really mundane, and not have Batman-tier plot armor.

At least Hamazura's plot armor was disregarded in NT7, when his plan was destroyed because his companion at that time refused to believe in him (his strategy revolves in using the current situation and environment at his advantage).

All in all, it makes me suspect that Shiage was designed to be an 80s action hero, similar to Indiana Jones and McGuyver, only less interesting.

In volume 15? Sure.

Afterwards? Not so much.

For example, Mugino's "change" and sudden love for Shiage felt...forced.

I really want to like Hamazura. I really do. I don't even dislike him.

I'm indifferent. I just can't manage.

Been busy, sorry for not responding.

Hamazura's most attractive point is that he really is believable. He is fresh breath from Touma and Accelerator for a few reasons:
1. Is literally unpowered. Other than him being lucky. His existence really humanizes some of the characters, significantly Mugino. His escape from her wrath really reminded me that they are well, human. They make mistakes, they suffer from loneliness, they beliefs are both weak and strong, they are prone to emotional damage, etc.

Having her fail and the dynamic of their relationships just became so much more meaningful. The change may seem random, but I honestly can't remember many events that didn't feel that way. Mugino is a person with her goals, it really isn't all that unthinkable that she would travel to find her goal.

Again, I don't thin he was as valuable to the story after WWIII, but definitely added humanity to the characters, in turn helped their dynamics to be much more interesting. Where as Touma's cast:

Mostly one-shot characters that barely have a greater role later in the series, with most of them being in love with him but not intereacting.

Accelerator:
I don't feel for Last Order, I'm pretty indifferent about her at the moment. But The researcher and the gym teacher are flat out boring. MISAKA WORST is a bit interesting...

[LevelSeven]

is a bit late.....but.....

Spoiler for @dniv:

1. Nowhere has it been said Accel could revive any clone if he became level 6. And at that point in time he didn't care about them at all because he saw them as dolls and not even worth keeping alive.

i thought Level 6 = being a god......
and for accel not recognizing them as humans, isnt othinus worser?? she knows what she does harms others but still does this things, and who says that she would revive them back????

2. Nowhere has it been said Fiamma could revive any back from the dead, and he didn't care about individuals he cared about some grand ideal that would make him a hero. That's arrogance. Yes, he wanted to fix the corruption in the world, but at the same time he was banking on the fact that people are foul beasts at heart, and that as an initial assumption already makes him on very shaky ground to think he could actually help anyone other than himself at all.

he reached the realm of 'one above god', i think that he was at this time higher or equal to 100% othinus, im sure he could, IF he would is a different question But again this also applies to othinus...

3. Their goals were for the sake of others. I agree with that. But all three goals were twisted by the corruption of supernatural powers that they were using. Othinus was like a singularity, and was therefore far more powerful, and therefore had her ideals twisted much more by her powers. (i.e. it's like why level fives have such skewed personalities compared to level 0's). This is why Othinus's motivations might have been hard to understand. However, given the ideas that she was harboring in her mind, I don't think she'd be able to understand or agree with the idea that helping others can accomplish something or is meaningful. She became a God of war after all. And if we're talking about messed up people Aleister's very likely right on top way above her even if you don't agree that she's not all bad.

its true she isnt the big bad, but inside toaru there is except of the kiharas and maybe aleister NOBODY who is black in his core, i blame the toaru-verse for being to optimistic and full of happy endings...

4. The scale of the incidents were arguably the same except there was one difference... Othinus could reverse the problem afterwards... (maybe). Accelerator was going to use Plasma to cover the entire world. Fiamma was almost creating a cataclysm in order to jumpstart his plan to reset the Aeon. These were all people who went through great tragedy and therefore had very twisted goals/ambitions (that was said by Kamachi in NT 9 about why villains had their motivations).

??? she could reverse it afterwards??? she was the mastermind behind Hawaii and Bagagge City, the number of perople who died in this places is maybe at the same high as WW3, she brought (i said it before) nothing but death/chaos to the world....
but i must say that this also applies to accel and fiamma before their hell-face-turns, afterall she is still a 'greater' monster as the other two and is after this volume loved by a hugh amount of fans, which i cant understand

This is the problem. Touma is protecting her for three main reasons.

i agree with your points completly...........

than: she killed 'fake' people which makes every murder inside touma's world not bad,
accel killed 'fake' clones,
fiamma created WW3 and was the reason why many 'fake' humans died,

othinus is a monster and that the 'normal' toaru-verse was a 'fake' for her does not change the fact that she was the reason why a hugh amount of people die,
she isnt someone who should be felt emphaty, someone who does this things does not deserve and form of solution,
i pointed it out the reasons of fiamma/accel was selfish but for the sake of others, her actions even if they are sad, are much more worse than theirs,

but this is my opinion about her actions if others find reason why she deserves anything except death/torture than it is ok, for me she is the greatest monster so far and her problems isnt a excuse for trembling on others lifes....

BUT this is what it is until now, after her heel-face-turn she will be a good person like fiamma/accel, i hoped that it goes a different way but like before -> toaru is a optimistic universe.....

1st Touma himself already choose to prioritized himself and more importantly, he knew that it's impossible to avoid tragedy, the choice Touma and Othinus make is the very same choice, i never heard that either Accel lv 6 or Fiamma can revive the dead.

i said it before, isnt Level 6/Lsdap equal or higher than 100% othinus???, im sure they are....

EDIT: XD i forgot my main point: i wanted to say that Touma is not near to be a saint, he even protects someone who is 'more bad' than accel and fiamma together....

PS: one question: do you guys think that toume will simply go back to his flat and everything is fine and he has a new freeloader??? because i cant believ that the magic side would let fiamma live even if he lives wit touma, and othinus was even more worse, therefore im a bit curious about the opinions of you guys.....
i personally cant imagine that they could live like they have until now, the only way would be to vanish with her and try to hide until the situation calms down....

[demino_hellsin]

If the human says Othinus can stay with Touma, no one else can do anything about it.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

is a bit late.....but.....

i said it before, isnt Level 6/Lsdap equal or higher than 100% othinus???, im sure they are....

EDIT: XD i forgot my main point: i wanted to say that Touma is not near to be a saint, he even protects someone who is 'more bad' than accel and fiamma together....

PS: one question: do you guys think that toume will simply go back to his flat and everything is fine and he has a new freeloader??? because i cant believ that the magic side would let fiamma live even if he lives wit touma, and othinus was even more worse, therefore im a bit curious about the opinions of you guys.....
i personally cant imagine that they could live like they have until now, the only way would be to vanish with her and try to hide until the situation calms down....

Nope, Lv 6 is unreachable as far as we know at the moment, and the project to turn accelerator into lv6 using Sister was doomed to fail since the beginning to spread the sister, and the closest example of lv6 is highly possible related to accelerator "wing" but that would at most put him at Kazakiri and highly doubt that he could reach Aiwass level, which is still below Othinus as of the moment, Aiwass level is unknown, but the fact that academy city can be twisted by Othinus during Omega mean that not even Aiwass can escape her ability completely and Hyouka is undoubtly affected since their bas which is the Sister was affected, if you insist, quote the part about lv 6 that make you think that.
Fiamma never reach "the one above god" since Imagine breaker reject him and Fiamma using Christianity while Othinus use Norse make it hard to compare, since "the one above god" use Christianity as base. and more importantly, Fiamma and winged accelerator have failed before, so that mean their success isn't 100% and that's put them below Othinus level. so far, only Othinus show an extreme dominance over Kamijou in term of sheer magic.

Let's put it more simple, can you answer me : what is right and what is bad ?
from your point, enemy of majority is bad so what does that make Gallileio and the church when entire prosecuted him and sentenced him imprisonment for the rest of his life, is scientist who wished for development "bad"?? the "bad" you see is veered into one direction, in actual truth, it's impossible to determined that, a revolutionist helped his country by killing many enemies, is he good or bad ?? can you actually said that Othinus is bad when you never actually experiences what she went through ?? the only 1 who have that right is Touma, who actually experience a similar things. And Touma was never a saint, when Index was attacked when they travel to England, he mercilessly attack the pilot for harming her while the pilot, inyour direction would be undoubtly "good" since he act for the sake of his passenger, does that justified his action for putting a girl into harm?? In this world, there exist no such thing as good or bad, they are both term made by human to describe a certain set of action, as such, it meaning varied between individuals, some thinks that killing can be justified as long as it can save, some never accept the act of killing. Are you absolutely sure that you decided whether someone is, in your term, "more bad" than others ?

[LevelSeven]

accel never reached Level 6 therefore i thought it is clear: i only used the description of it which says Level 6 is someone who understands the will of the heavens, for me it sounds like a nigh-omnipotence being....

fiamma lost this position before he lost, but im sure even if they use different religions lsdap> othinus, the fact that he was about to change the world into heaven is more than enough....., im sure he could also summon hell, which turns the torture touma/othinus went through into a scratch from a needle......

i understood your post.....i agree too, this was the reason why i used this: '
before and after the word bad.....
this terms are relatively, they also change for every person/religion/etc.
but her actions are 'bad' simply because of the lives she took....

(or her actions are more worse, this is a better word )

fiamma: killed many innocent people via WW3 BUT for a more or less good (for the sake of others) reason....
othinus: killed also many people BUT only for her selfish (even if it is human-like) reason.....

fiammas and accels actions was that of monsters, othinus managed to reach a new level, touma is trying to protect her (she isnt bad now, after her heel-face-turn, but this dont free her from the lives she took, accel/fiamma also changed but they are still monsters) which makes him into someone who helps a mass-murder......

a bad comparison:
serial killer: killed over 20 humans (small children), touma talks with him and the serial killer stops, police tries to kill him, touma helps the monster,
so: who was right and who wrong?? touma or the police?

maybe the comparison is bad but i hope it shows the problem good enough,

PS: i think for many fans othinus (the cruel, merciless b*tch) died after her adventure with touma and as if her jumping into his harem would undo all of her previous actions the fans are loving her....

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

a bad comparison:
serial killer: killed over 20 humans (small children), touma talks with him and the serial killer stops, police tries to kill him, touma helps the monster,
so: who was right and who wrong?? touma or the police?

maybe the comparison is bad but i hope it shows the problem good enough,

PS: i think for many fans othinus (the cruel, merciless b*tch) died after her adventure with touma and as if her jumping into his harem would undo all of her previous actions the fans are loving her....

If Othnius is evil for killing so many people, does that mean she is good when she revives so many people? Or even made it so that they have never died in the first place?

If the act of killing is bad because you take away a life, then the act of reviving is good because you add a life.

Then you'll say that committing the act is a sin regardless then what if the person had never died to begin with? What's the scoreboard? Are we going to start counting bodies of infinite parallel worlds that technically never happened?

Originally Posted by GodlyKyon

Hamazura's most attractive point is that he really is believable. He is fresh breath from Touma and Accelerator for a few reasons:

Are you talking about the same Hamazura who is roughly the age of a high school student with no training, average intelligence of a common thug, but could some how bested the technology of Academy City and fight off Russian snow pirates?

Yeah no- He definitely has some fantasy elements to him.

[Acer]

I do not think we can use the concept of good and evil when speaking of Othinus (she is a god, then human concept should not be applied to it), she killed thousands of people, but revived they, plays with life with the same ease that a child plays with sand, but this is something that only the Touma know, the other alleged victims can not imagine that such a thing occurred, and then everything is back to normal, then the alleged victim would still be the victim? murder can be forgiven if you bring the person who killed back to life?
we also have the fact that Touma fought desperately to return to own the world and that means it technically would kill all the people who came back to life, we can say that he committed attempted mass murder?

is all very complicated.

[allfictions]

We should just apply ''Blue and Orange Morality'' to Othinus, because she is effectively Above Good and Evil, and be done with it. LevelSeven is essentially grasping at straws here.

Also,

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

??? she could reverse it afterwards??? she was the mastermind behind Hawaii and Bagagge City, the number of perople who died in this places is maybe at the same high as WW3, she brought (i said it before) nothing but death/chaos to the world....

Let me ask you a simple, yet essential question: are you fucking serious!? Are you seriously, in all honesty, comparing World War Three with Hawaii and Baggage City? Yes, WWIII lasted 11/12 days, and Academy City officially went on the offensive on the last day, but can you tell me, with a straight face, that a war involving the two most populous countries on Earth + Russia and its 140+ millions inhabitants + French and British battling it out made less casualties than an archipelago of 1+million inhabitants and a medium sized city? Both of which incidents lasted a day? You have the gall to claim this? Add to that that many people in Hawaii managed to stay out of the combat zones and it becomes all the more ridiculous.

Sheesh, don't make shit up on the spot when arguing, it reflects badly.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

accel never reached Level 6 therefore i thought it is clear: i only used the description of it which says Level 6 is someone who understands the will of the heavens, for me it sounds like a nigh-omnipotence being....

fiamma lost this position before he lost, but im sure even if they use different religions lsdap> othinus, the fact that he was about to change the world into heaven is more than enough....., im sure he could also summon hell, which turns the torture touma/othinus went through into a scratch from a needle......

i understood your post.....i agree too, this was the reason why i used this: '
before and after the word bad.....
this terms are relatively, they also change for every person/religion/etc.
but her actions are 'bad' simply because of the lives she took....

(or her actions are more worse, this is a better word )

fiamma: killed many innocent people via WW3 BUT for a more or less good (for the sake of others) reason....
othinus: killed also many people BUT only for her selfish (even if it is human-like) reason.....

fiammas and accels actions was that of monsters, othinus managed to reach a new level, touma is trying to protect her (she isnt bad now, after her heel-face-turn, but this dont free her from the lives she took, accel/fiamma also changed but they are still monsters) which makes him into someone who helps a mass-murder......

a bad comparison:
serial killer: killed over 20 humans (small children), touma talks with him and the serial killer stops, police tries to kill him, touma helps the monster,
so: who was right and who wrong?? touma or the police?

maybe the comparison is bad but i hope it shows the problem good enough,

PS: i think for many fans othinus (the cruel, merciless b*tch) died after her adventure with touma and as if her jumping into his harem would undo all of her previous actions the fans are loving her....

The main problem is you're not getting what we're trying to say. You keep on saying she's a mass murderer.

So for the sake of argument let's say she's not above good and evil, let's say that she did some bad things, let's say that she's messed up. Even then why is Touma ok in helping her. Since the last time I said it, you didn't seem to read anything I said except the bare bones, I'll say it this time in a short rant:

Touma wanted to return to his world. As readers we were fine with Touma destroying a world full of people, because we wanted him to be able to return to his home, because we know him and like the characters in the main world of To aru series like Mikoto, Hamazura, and Accelerator. Othinus literally was doing the same thing. She was destroying the world for the exact same reason, the only difference is that we don't personally know the people that were in her world. Therefore, she was doing the same thing we wanted Touma to do. Therefore, she shouldn't have been doing anything wrong at all. Don't call it murder, that's stupid. Otherwise, Touma and Will-san were also committing murder, and they weren't, they were trying to return to their home. Killing people in a fake world isn't murder, it's levelling up while trying to become a level 120 player wearing full dragon armor. Killing people in a fake game isn't wrong. That's exactly what's happening here with Othinus/Touma. So why wouldn't he protect her. You not being able to see why he would protect her is frightening. There is no reason he wouldn't protect her. She was literally doing everything she could so she could return to her world, and then she gave up to save his life and fulfill his dream. Why the hell would he not help her then?

If you answer every single point in this paragraph with viable arguments then I might be willing to buy your perspective, but what you are saying doesn't make sense to me at all. She isn't a killer, WWIII and direct killing of lots of people is literally just as bad.

I really don't see why you don't like it when characters get a second chance. The whole reason that happens is because Index unlike other series is actually sophisticated. Characters aren't black and white, good or evil. They can grow and change, they have reasons for being the twisted way they are because of terrible things that happened to them. Time can make pain go away. That's true in real life, but most characters in anime are static. Index is different and it's one of the main reasons a lot of people like it. I don't see why you think she should get punished when she could become a powerful person that could do the world a lot of good. Why hurt someone that could help you? That's stupid, I'm sorry to say that. Giving people second chances is important, especially if they are going to change. If they're going to change, it's literally retarded not to give them a second chance.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

accel never reached Level 6 therefore i thought it is clear: i only used the description of it which says Level 6 is someone who understands the will of the heavens, for me it sounds like a nigh-omnipotence being....

go there and quote me this part, and FYI, the will of heaven is most likely refer to the will of gods and Othinus is a real god.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

fiamma lost this position before he lost, but im sure even if they use different religions lsdap> othinus, the fact that he was about to change the world into heaven is more than enough....., im sure he could also summon hell, which turns the torture touma/othinus went through into a scratch from a needle......

uhmm ... From what i dunderstand, are you saing that Fiamma attempt to change the world into Heaven ??
And btw, Othinus could rebuilt the world, Along with religion, Christianity included, from the scratch.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

fiammas and accels actions was that of monsters, othinus managed to reach a new level, touma is trying to protect her (she isnt bad now, after her heel-face-turn, but this dont free her from the lives she took, accel/fiamma also changed but they are still monsters) which makes him into someone who helps a mass-murder......

a bad comparison:
serial killer: killed over 20 humans (small children), touma talks with him and the serial killer stops, police tries to kill him, touma helps the monster,
so: who was right and who wrong?? touma or the police?

maybe the comparison is bad but i hope it shows the problem good enough,

PS: i think for many fans othinus (the cruel, merciless b*tch) died after her adventure with touma and as if her jumping into his harem would undo all of her previous actions the fans are loving her....

I won't talk about 2nd chance, since i myself don't believe that all deserve one, only those who truly seek it, however, your are having a serious case of tunnel vision. I bet you are the type who like story who have clear villain and hero role, your comparison is not bad, it's completely off the mark. IF you like serial killer and children too much, i will use your analogy:
+ multiple children contract a dangerous influenza that's could spread and kill all of the people in his village.
+ A killer kill them and removed the influenza at the same time.
+ the world condemned him
+ Touma stood up to protect him.
i can't believe you actually use a serial killer example without bother giving me a motive. You just use the word "serial killer" and put that as bad without going over why did he do your so-called bad thing ? going by your analogy, a Police man will undoubtly good while you don't even know whether he exploited people or not, a burglar can't be anything but bad even if he doing so to save his mother who is on deathbed.

[LG-MAX]

I believe in redemption, but I also believe that people should pay for what they did, so I do not believe that a simple.

Touma: "She lost her powers and will not do any harm"

Everyone: "OK".

So I think a lot of great shit will happen to the two at the end of 10 NT (or not)

[Bakaizer]

Originally Posted by LG-MAX

I believe in redemption, but I also believe that people should pay for what they did, so I do not believe that a simple.

Touma: "She lost her powers and will not do any harm"

Everyone: "OK".

So I think a lot of great shit will happen to the two at the end of 10 NT (or not)

maybe will-san could do something

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for @alfictions:

Let me ask you a simple, yet essential question: are you fucking serious!? Are you seriously, in all honesty, comparing World War Three with Hawaii and Baggage City? Yes, WWIII lasted 11/12 days, and Academy City officially went on the offensive on the last day, but can you tell me, with a straight face, that a war involving the two most populous countries on Earth + Russia and its 140+ millions inhabitants + French and British battling it out made less casualties than an archipelago of 1+million inhabitants and a medium sized city? Both of which incidents lasted a day? You have the gall to claim this? Add to that that many people in Hawaii managed to stay out of the combat zones and it becomes all the more ridiculous.

thaks for pointing it out, i really thought this until now, if i think about it than you are right with the point that WW3 caused much more lives than hawaii+baggage city...

Spoiler for @dniv:

Touma wanted to return to his world. As readers we were fine with Touma destroying a world full of people, because we wanted him to be able to return to his home, because we know him and like the characters in the main world of To aru series like Mikoto, Hamazura, and Accelerator. Othinus literally was doing the same thing. She was destroying the world for the exact same reason, the only difference is that we don't personally know the people that were in her world.

i agree...

Therefore, she was doing the same thing we wanted Touma to do. Therefore, she shouldn't have been doing anything wrong at all. Don't call it murder, that's stupid.

what?? if i dont call it murder than everything what accel and fiamma, marian and others have done was also completly right in the first place.....

i will not say that i could understand a person but it seems like this 'artifical world' and othinus's world clearly stopped you from judging properly, only because they say that it is a 'fake' world does not undo the pain/fear/death she brought about innocent humans,

if i go with your point than what Aureolus have done was also completly ok and he didnt killed several innocent students in vol 2,
sherrys friend is also not killed since he was a fake,
ventos brother was a fake and therefore he didnt die since he was never the real one.....

therwise, Touma and Will-san were also committing murder, and they weren't, they were trying to return to their home. Killing people in a fake world isn't murder, it's levelling up while trying to become a level 120 player wearing full dragon armor. Killing people in a fake game isn't wrong. That's exactly what's happening here with Othinus/Touma.

again what?? why are the humans which died in toumas world and the humans touma killed in omega world not real???.....
this worlds are real like the one in which touma lived, he killed innocent humans and stopped them from being happy the same way which othinus does.....
othinus is a monster and touma too, therefore i said that i agree with your previous post,
this was my main point in this whole discussion: proving that touma isnt a hero nor a saint, he killed many innocent humans, othinus have done the same and he protects her now, even if her reasons are sad and human-like this does not undo her sins the same way it does not undo accels sins...
like i wrote in my PS: i think for many fans othinus (the cruel, merciless b*tch) died after her adventure with touma and as if her jumping into his harem would undo all of her previous actions the fans are loving her....

this is only my opinion because their are many accel-haters who brings the clone-killing topic again and again, i wonder why nobody pointed out that othinus exceeded him in this points with more than 100.000 lives+....
and the fact that accel killed them with his bare hands or that othinus was the reason why the deaths occured are still the same, they killed a hugh amounts of humans...

So why wouldn't he protect her. You not being able to see why he would protect her is frightening. There is no reason he wouldn't protect her. She was literally doing everything she could so she could return to her world, and then she gave up to save his life and fulfill his dream. Why the hell would he not help her then?

i never said that he shouldnt protect her right??

If you answer every single point in this paragraph with viable arguments then I might be willing to buy your perspective, but what you are saying doesn't make sense to me at all. She isn't a killer, WWIII and direct killing of lots of people is literally just as bad.

she is a killer and this to a extent which would make us speechless if this ever happens in our world, im sure what i wrote isnt really meaningful for you but it is what i think after this discussion with you and the others:

-Othinus is a Killer, the same way Accelerator and Fiamma are....
-Touma isnt different, he placed his goal over the lives of millions of innocent beings, which makes him the same like Othinus, even more worse than Accelerator (who killed because of the sake of others)
-the people in the distorted world ARE alive, they ARE real, to say that they arent and that Othnus's actions arent 'bad' or that she isnt a murderer is from my point of view not correct, and if you insist than: Accels/Fiammas/Terras/ etc. actions was also not bad, they never killed anybody....

I really don't see why you don't like it when characters get a second chance.

this is my personal problem: i wished that the story changes into a bit darker version becasue even after 31 volumes their was how many carachter with names who died???
the only one : Terra (where the author have done everything he could to make his carachter as much hateable as possible)
and than Kihara Kagun which also gained a form of 'second life' where he (even as undead /not really alive human) walked away with this Kung-Fu-Girl on his side and the prego badass-girl in his arms (forgot their names), so not really a bad end too....

like i wrote two times and now again: Toaru is a optimistic story where the bad guys will gain a heel-face-turn and try to redeem themeselfes from their sins,

i DONT say that it is bad but after 31 volumes i really wish for a little change......

like showing that even IF a carachter is liked by the fans that he/she can die too but until now only our so-hated-as*h*le of Terra is dead, and Kihara's who are per definition: black and rotten to their respective souls (with a few exceptions).....

Spoiler for @dragon1412:

I won't talk about 2nd chance, since i myself don't believe that all deserve one, only those who truly seek it, however, your are having a serious case of tunnel vision. I bet you are the type who like story who have clear villain and hero role, your comparison is not bad, it's completely off the mark. IF you like serial killer and children too much, i will use your analogy:
+ multiple children contract a dangerous influenza that's could spread and kill all of the people in his village.
+ A killer kill them and removed the influenza at the same time.
+ the world condemned him
+ Touma stood up to protect him.
i can't believe you actually use a serial killer example without bother giving me a motive. You just use the word "serial killer" and put that as bad without going over why did he do your so-called bad thing ? going by your analogy, a Police man will undoubtly good while you don't even know whether he exploited people or not, a burglar can't be anything but bad even if he doing so to save his mother who is on deathbed.

the problem is: what you wrote applies to fiamma not to othinus....
fiamma killed others because he wanted to save mankind....so he is the killer of the lets say 50 children,
othinus would kill them not because she wants to protect the others, she killed lets say 20 children because she wanted to save herself....her goal is solely for her own benefit...

so who was now right?? the one who killed them to save the others?? (fiamma) or the one who killed them to protect herself?? (othinus),
im honest now: i couldnt tell it for sure, i would still blame ohinus more than fiamma and this only because of my feeling about their actions, and their goals....

to be honest i think it will happen like LG-Max: So I think a lot of great shit will happen to the two at the end of 10 NT (or not),

[Draco Spirit]

Originally Posted by Bakaizer

maybe will-san could do something

Pretty sure Will-san going to be the one keeps him alive in NT10, considering her little speech in NT9. The fact the Sister are effectively worldwide gives the author excuse for them to turn up pretty much anywhere the plot demands too!

[LevelSeven]

Pretty sure Will-san going to be the one keeps him alive in NT10, considering her little speech in NT9. The fact the Sister are effectively worldwide gives the author excuse for them to turn up pretty much anywhere the plot demands too!

true, but what could they do?? the only thing i see is that they stop the others long enough for touma and othinus to escape.....
i really hope this will happen, at least it would make me starving for the next chapter with touma and othinus are hiding themselfes and the magic+science side are after them....
(but deep inside i hope it because i want to see more chapters focused on accel )

[dniv]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

Spoiler for @alfictions:

thaks for pointing it out, i really thought this until now, if i think about it than you are right with the point that WW3 caused much more lives than hawaii+baggage city...

Spoiler for @dniv:

i agree...



what?? if i dont call it murder than everything what accel and fiamma, marian and others have done was also completly right in the first place.....

i will not say that i could understand a person but it seems like this 'artifical world' and othinus's world clearly stopped you from judging properly, only because they say that it is a 'fake' world does not undo the pain/fear/death she brought about innocent humans,

if i go with your point than what Aureolus have done was also completly ok and he didnt killed several innocent students in vol 2,
sherrys friend is also not killed since he was a fake,
ventos brother was a fake and therefore he didnt die since he was never the real one.....



again what?? why are the humans which died in toumas world and the humans touma killed in omega world not real???.....
this worlds are real like the one in which touma lived, he killed innocent humans and stopped them from being happy the same way which othinus does.....
othinus is a monster and touma too, therefore i said that i agree with your previous post,
this was my main point in this whole discussion: proving that touma isnt a hero nor a saint, he killed many innocent humans, othinus have done the same and he protects her now, even if her reasons are sad and human-like this does not undo her sins the same way it does not undo accels sins...
like i wrote in my PS: i think for many fans othinus (the cruel, merciless b*tch) died after her adventure with touma and as if her jumping into his harem would undo all of her previous actions the fans are loving her....

this is only my opinion because their are many accel-haters who brings the clone-killing topic again and again, i wonder why nobody pointed out that othinus exceeded him in this points with more than 100.000 lives+....
and the fact that accel killed them with his bare hands or that othinus was the reason why the deaths occured are still the same, they killed a hugh amounts of humans...



i never said that he shouldnt protect her right??



she is a killer and this to a extent which would make us speechless if this ever happens in our world, im sure what i wrote isnt really meaningful for you but it is what i think after this discussion with you and the others:

-Othinus is a Killer, the same way Accelerator and Fiamma are....
-Touma isnt different, he placed his goal over the lives of millions of innocent beings, which makes him the same like Othinus, even more worse than Accelerator (who killed because of the sake of others)
-the people in the distorted world ARE alive, they ARE real, to say that they arent and that Othnus's actions arent 'bad' or that she isnt a murderer is from my point of view not correct, and if you insist than: Accels/Fiammas/Terras/ etc. actions was also not bad, they never killed anybody....


this is my personal problem: i wished that the story changes into a bit darker version becasue even after 31 volumes their was how many carachter with names who died???
the only one : Terra (where the author have done everything he could to make his carachter as much hateable as possible)
and than Kihara Kagun which also gained a form of 'second life' where he (even as undead /not really alive human) walked away with this Kung-Fu-Girl on his side and the prego badass-girl in his arms (forgot their names), so not really a bad end too....

like i wrote two times and now again: Toaru is a optimistic story where the bad guys will gain a heel-face-turn and try to redeem themeselfes from their sins,

i DONT say that it is bad but after 31 volumes i really wish for a little change......

like showing that even IF a carachter is liked by the fans that he/she can die too but until now only our so-hated-as*h*le of Terra is dead, and Kihara's who are per definition: black and rotten to their respective souls (with a few exceptions).....

Spoiler for @dragon1412:

the problem is: what you wrote applies to fiamma not to othinus....
fiamma killed others because he wanted to save mankind....so he is the killer of the lets say 50 children,
othinus would kill them not because she wants to protect the others, she killed lets say 20 children because she wanted to save herself....her goal is solely for her own benefit...

so who was now right?? the one who killed them to save the others?? (fiamma) or the one who killed them to protect herself?? (othinus),
im honest now: i couldnt tell it for sure, i would still blame ohinus more than fiamma and this only because of my feeling about their actions, and their goals....

to be honest i think it will happen like LG-Max: So I think a lot of great shit will happen to the two at the end of 10 NT (or not),

I see your point now. Now I understand. You didn't say Touma shouldn't help her, you just was saying he was helping a murderer. This makes more sense, got it.

I also see why you treat those as deaths even though they are fake. Then your point of view is fine even if I don't agree with the fact it's bad per-say.

Though you seem to be one of the people who agrees with me that Touma did some pretty evil things this book even if it was ultimately justified...