Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Shalcker]

Originally Posted by musouka

It's episode nine in a twelve episode series, yet Homura is still pulling the "I won't tell you jack shit until another corpse is tossed in front of you, and even then it will be self-serving and as vague as possible."

Madoka is obviously involved at this point. After the first death and disillusionment with the idea of becoming a magical girl, Homura should have told her what she knew. Instead all we get are I-told-you-so's and head tosses as Madoka cries over the body of her best friend.

Well, it's natural extension of "don't involve Madoka in anything" line. Madoka might get attached to Homura out of "care-for-everyone-else" self-sacrificial attitude if she disagrees with her conclusions ("Madoka shouldn't get contracted.") after Homura opens her cards. And since Homura already said "telling doesn't help at all", that might have already played out in previous iterations.

[Solace]

SaguraSouske's post reminded me of this scene from the movie Labyrinth:

It's a basic riddle. There are two doors. One door leads to the goal, the other leads to certain doom. However, there's a problem. Neither guard can tell you which door leads to which. To make this worse, one guard always lies, and one guard always tells the truth. You can only ask one guard one question. So, how do you phrase a question that answers who is lying, and which door is the correct one?

A quick note on the video, she does get the riddle correct however anytime a character says "it's a piece of cake" the Labyrinth adds more difficulty.

What this riddle illustrates are two basic problems with human thinking. First, trust. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt in most situations. This makes it easier for others to lie. Two, asking questions is good, but asking the right question is better. We tend to make assumptions in our judgment because we rationalize information easily. Most of us aren't paranoid cynics who think like chess players, pondering two moves ahead and thinking of all points of information.

Ultimately the answer of Kyubey lying or not is moot. He just can't be trusted either way (much like the door guards). There are better questions to ask, like what his real goal is. The story he offers does not make sense if you think about the preservation of the system. There is no one more powerful than Madoka, and if she becomes a Witch the short term large gain does not outweigh the long term cost of wiping out humanity (thus removing the source of power for good). So eventually her harvested power would be used up, and Kyubey would be back to square one.

The story does not work. While people here are arguing if he is lying, or moral, or good, or the opposite, it's painfully obvious they're missing the forest for the trees when it comes to trying to figure out how the rest of the series will go from here.

[garbage]

ah here it is again discussions and debates concerning different definitions. this time with the word UNDERSTAND : plain knowing the fact > knowing the fact and it's significance > and then deeper also feeling & experiencing that same fact.

clearly QB also understands the SIGNIFICANCE of emotions as they apply to humans. I mean didn't QB himself admitted not telling the fact about the soul gem to MGs because it will lessen his chance of getting a contract? and is aware that humans don't like it at all. s/he/it KNOWS how emotions affect humans. isn't that the very basis of their ENERGY collecting scheme?(if this is in fact his true goal). there are no ifs and buts on that point. QB knows, they know. They might not feel emotions themselves, just like a psychiatrist might not have psychotic thoughts and therefore cannot EMPATHIZE ( feel exactly, experience exactly as a patient), but that doesn't mean they don't know about it or their significance. they know enough at least to manipulate the girls and to drive them to becoming witches. just like a psychiatrist understands a condition enough thru scientific studies and previous observations, to be able to help a patient.

[Jimmy C]

I think it's much older than that movie. I saw an identical riddle in a Dr. Who episode that came before the movie.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I think it's much older than that movie. I saw an identical riddle in a Dr. Who episode that came before the movie.

The scene is for illustration purposes. It's a very old riddle. I'm attempting to use it for context.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The former is true, because stopping the witches do prevent them from driving people to suicide. The latter is also true for obvious reasons.

You are assuming the fact in that statement is only "stopping the witches prevent them driving people to suicide". You ignored that "MG's purpose is to kill witches" part. It had changed from "MG's purpose is to kill witches" to "MG's purpose is to become witches".

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Once again, Kyubey did not lie. He was being killed. Whether that affects him or not is drawn from your own interpretation.

Again, you ignore "Help me." Why does QB need to cry out for help? Clearly to create an impression that death will effect him so that it will paint himself as a helpless mascot creature in front of Madoka.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Different situations, different time of day. Kyubey did leave them alone for a moment. However, he did not state for how long. Kyubey did not stay with Madoka and Sayaka the entire time, therefore he kept his word.

So when someone says I will leave you alone, he literally means leaving you alone for a moment? Is that how "leaving someone alone' normally being interpreted?

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

You're making this out to be a lie on the baseless assumption that causing pain stops fighting. These are two completely unrelated statements. Kyubey did not stop the fight in ep5; they stopped when Madoka intervened and accidentally caused Sayaka to drop dead

We just went from an explanation that MGs can keep on fighting precisely because they do not feel pain and how QB perceive that as an advantage because pain can impair their ability to fight. Now as a physical demonstration, QB put Sayaka in so much pain that she literally cannot do anything physically and you are saying it does not stop fighting if it was done to both Kyoko and Sayaka? It's like saying if I tie up both combatants arms and legs with ropes and yet that does not stop them from righting

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

If he does not know if a way to turn Witches back and cannot fathom the possibility that there is, then he believes that turning Witches back is impossible.

Again the lie is not whether or not it is possible but rather on whether he knows it is possible or not. He conveyed to Kyoko that he doesn't know when he clearly knows.

You seem to be putting each sentence QB said in a vacuum to judge them factual. In that scenario, almost anything anyone said can be considered factual. When words are being uttered, they are not in a vacuum. Both the context and additional related info are to be taken into account on whether something being said is true or not. The words may be factual in a vacuum, but they are not truthful communication. Therefore, he spoke untruthfully with the intent to deceive.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The former is true, because stopping the witches do prevent them from driving people to suicide. The latter is also true for obvious reasons.

Once again, Kyubey did not lie. He was being killed. Whether that affects him or not is drawn from your own interpretation.

Different situations, different time of day. Kyubey did leave them alone for a moment. However, he did not state for how long. Kyubey did not stay with Madoka and Sayaka the entire time, therefore he kept his word.

You're making this out to be a lie on the baseless assumption that causing pain stops fighting. These are two completely unrelated statements. Kyubey did not stop the fight in ep5; they stopped when Madoka intervened and accidentally caused Sayaka to drop dead.

If he does not know if a way to turn Witches back and cannot fathom the possibility that there is, then he believes that turning Witches back is impossible.

"Under this narrow definition," Kyubey has not lied. These statements have nothing more than contradicting implications.

This is not about whether Kyubey is right or wrong, or whether he is good or evil. What matters is that he is harming humans and needs to be stopped. There will never be a correct or conclusive stance on a character's moral being.

I'd sue him for deception a thousand times over.

I was in the "QB is neutral" camp, but this episode fu**in' kicked me in. Right now it does not matter whether he's evil or good or whatever. He's an asshole, and I kick assholes in the face.

CIA "Sure, sacrifice some of our own citizens for the safety of others"
Bully "We are bullying you so other students are safe from bullying"
Qin Shi Huang Di "Hey, work those thousands of people to death so I can have a majestic place to die"
etc etc
QB "Kill yourself please, you're doing our universe a greater good"
Bullcrap. I knew I didn't become a misanthropic for nothing.

Seriously, I no longer see the point in defending this Eldritch Abomination or rationaly analyze his actions anymore. Pre-ep.8, it was a good mind-exercise to consider that nothing is purely black and white, but we must move on as the show move on. This...thing...must be stopped.

EDIT: For those who ask "So you prefer witches moving around?". If QB's race is so advanced then it shouldn't be a problem for them to kill these witches. Just 'kindly' ask them to take these witches back to wherever their race came from and leave our planet alone.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Solace

SaguraSouske's post reminded me of this scene from the movie Labyrinth:

The story does not work. While people here are arguing if he is lying, or moral, or good, or the opposite, it's painfully obvious they're missing the forest for the trees when it comes to trying to figure out how the rest of the series will go from here.

Solace I understand your point completely. I am not arguing to speculate how the rest of the show will turn out. There are other posts that I make for that purpose. Arguing about QB is mainly due to my inability to grasp how some people can think the way they think. While some arguments are on semantics or definition of lying, I just cannot fathom that some people still think QB's words can be trusted.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Solace

Ultimately the answer of Kyubey lying or not is moot. He just can't be trusted either way (much like the door guards). There are better questions to ask, like what his real goal is. The story he offers does not make sense if you think about the preservation of the system. There is no one more powerful than Madoka, and if she becomes a Witch the short term large gain does not outweigh the long term cost of wiping out humanity (thus removing the source of power for good). So eventually her harvested power would be used up, and Kyubey would be back to square one.

The story does not work. While people here are arguing if he is lying, or moral, or good, or the opposite, it's painfully obvious they're missing the forest for the trees when it comes to trying to figure out how the rest of the series will go from here.

Pretty much agree on all counts here. The only reason I even mentioned the lying business is because people are drawing conclusions based on something that appears to be faulty reasoning. Pet peeve of mine, sorry

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I think it's much older than that movie. I saw an identical riddle in a Dr. Who episode that came before the movie.

LOL, "The Pyramids of Mars" - I remember it well... But yes, that is a very old riddle, older even than our 48 year-old series about Time Lords.

I think essence of this argument can be distilled into three little words: "Don't trust Incubator". If you live by that maxim you'll probably get by.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Solace I understand your point completely. I am not arguing to speculate how the rest of the show will turn out. There are other posts that I make for that purpose. Arguing about QB is mainly due to my inability to grasp how some people can think the way they think. While some arguments are on semantics or definition of lying, I just cannot fathom that some people still think QB's words can be trusted.

No, you're right and I completely agree. I'm also baffled by this behavior.

If he's telling the truth, he still needs to be stopped.
If he's lying, he definitely needs to be stopped.

So no matter what he says, you can't trust him and he needs to be stopped. And if you can't trust him, then you need to figure out what his real motives are or at least plan for the worst and hope.

It's not a difficult conclusion to come to but apparently some people are still grappling with it. In the end I think the only thing that will convince some is if Kyubey just comes right out and says "lol guys, I was screwing with you the whole time!".

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

You are assuming the fact in that statement is only "stopping the witches prevent them driving people to suicide". You ignored that "MG's purpose is to kill witches" part. It had changed from "MG's purpose is to kill witches" to "MG's purpose is to become witches".



Again, you ignore "Help me." Why does QB need to cry out for help? Clearly to create an impression that death will effect him so that it will paint himself as a helpless mascot creature in front of Madoka.



So when someone says I will leave you alone, he literally means leaving you alone for a moment? Is that how "leaving someone alone' normally being interpreted?



We just went from an explanation that MGs can keep on fighting precisely because they do not feel pain and how QB perceive that as an advantage because pain can impair their ability to fight. Now as a physical demonstration, QB put Sayaka in so much pain that she literally cannot do anything physically and you are saying it does not stop fighting if it was done to both Kyoko and Sayaka? It's like saying if I tie up both combatants arms and legs with ropes and yet that does not stop them from righting



Again the lie is not whether or not it is possible but rather on whether he knows it is possible or not. He conveyed to Kyoko that he doesn't know when he clearly knows.

You seem to be putting each sentence QB said in a vacuum to judge them factual. In that scenario, almost anything anyone said can be considered factual. When words are being uttered, they are not in a vacuum. Both the context and additional related info are to be taken into account on whether something being said is true or not. The words may be factual in a vacuum, but they are not truthful communication. Therefore, he spoke untruthfully with the intent to deceive.

There is a difference between untruthful context and untruthful words. There are many forms of untruths, such as omission by silence, half-truths, or completely contradicting the facts. Some would consider some of those forms lying while others do not.

The most simple lie would be one that directly contradicts the facts. For example, telling someone who has cancer that he or she does not is an untruth that would still be an untruth even in "vacuum," as you would put it.

However, when it comes to judging the truth of a factually correct statement based on its implications and context, the parameters are unclear and in the grey area because not everyone can draw the same conclusion, because the context does not apply to everyone and many people will naturally bring their own experiences and preconceived notions to make sense of such an indirect area.

What Kyubey said is factually true, and under the most narrow definition of lying or in a vacuum, as you would word it, Kyubey is not lying. However, under a broader definition, whether Kyubey is lying or telling the truth, or whether he is right or wrong is up to your own moral standards in which you cannot hope others will conform to.

What truly matters at the moment is that how Kyubey is acting harms others and therefore must be stopped, regardless of whether he is lying, being neutral or evil, or right or wrong. Even ignoring his intentions, it should not change that he is harming others and needs to be stopped. This moral evaluation was appropriate on the first few episodes when Kyubey's actions did not truly hurt anyone yet and his true motives were still unclear, but currently when judging Kyubey no longer affects the actions that should be taken, this moral evaluation is just pointlessly pedantic.

[Shalcker]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

It's like saying if I tie up both combatants arms and legs with ropes and yet that does not stop them from righting

QB never actually said he wants them to stop fighting, even assuming he has means for that. All he said was that it's too reckless, that current Sayaka stands no chance against either Homura or Kyoko, and wouldn't listen to him anyway. All signs point toward conclusion that he wants them to fight. More chances for contracting Madoka! After all, he was bringing Madoka into that fight on the bridge even when she wasn't invited, AND was actively suggesting to Sayaka in EP06 that contracting Madoka can solve all her problems should Sayaka ever need help. To which Sayaka said "NO! It's my fight." at start, but obviously it played right into situation in EP08 where QB got swiss-cheesed.

Again the lie is not whether or not it is possible but rather on whether he knows it is possible or not. He conveyed to Kyoko that he doesn't know when he clearly knows.

He clearly said in no uncertain terms "I have no knowledge of any way to do that." to Kyoko. Then when she asked "So, there might be way you don't know about?" he said "Mahou Shoujou are such impossible things, i wouldn't be surprised at anything. - So, it's possible? - It never happened before, that's why i don't know any way to do that." Then she refused his reasoning.

Kyoko had her own false hope, it had little to do with QB being non-truthful there. If it's "Screw Destiny" scenario, you need to leave some measure of free will for characters. They can be mistaken due their own beliefs/hopes, not everything is Xanatos Gambit by QB.

[panzerfan]

Please step back and take a breather. This issue on Kyuubee and his dialogue with Madoka has becoming increasingly heated that a few (such as I, shamefully) would end up putting forth emotions and so forth. I needed half a day of cooling off to return to this discussion personally.

Stemming from the talk with SpaceBrotha and Arkeus, let us begin with excerpt of Kyuubee's dialogue with Madoka in whole.

Originally Posted by Dialog

キュゥべえ「僕達の文明は知的生命体の感情をエネルギーに変換するテクノロジーを発明した。ところがあいに く、当の僕らが感情というものを持ち合わせていなかった。」
Kyuubee: "Our civilization has developed the technology to transform emotions of sentient beings into energy. Unfortunately however, emotion is something that we do not have."

Incubator's race would have to have sufficient understanding of emotion through rationale in order to manipulate emotion into energy. It can be inferred that the Incubator's race would have rational understanding of emotions.

Incubator's race being unable to generate emotions at all would support the extraordinary efforts to seek out a race that can generate emotions, should those emotions really be sufficiently strong to stave off the heat death of the universe. Mind you, this of course is said by not questioning the validity in the Incubator' words.

I suppose what I am putting forth is that the Incubator should have rational understanding of emotions available to him, so the question would rather be at why is it that he fails to rationalize the gamut of emotions that the girls have shown to him when his race can rationalize emotions. For the sake of integrity to his own words, we have to operate at the assumption that Kyuubee does not possess emotion. Incubator has shown ability of critical thinking through his responses and deductive abilities, so his ability to think will not be questioned either.

Some of the things that I ended up thinking of would be that:
1. His race barely comprehend emotions, to the point that they only know of means to extract and to convert emotions into energy.
2. The Incubator chose to not rationalize the individual emotions of the girls that he has encountered for one reason or another.
3. The Incubator is not privy to the entirety of the body of knowledge that his race possess.

Both 1 and 3 felt like ignorance while 2 is willful negligence.

[Mentar]

We've come a really long way ... from the cute enabler of young idealistic girls' dreams to fight for love and justice against evil nasty witches back then to the self-proclaimed emotionless butcher of deceived girls for the sake of the universe. Yet, there's still people who INSIST that he's never been lying so far.

I need to commend Urobuchi Gen for showing me what I wouldn't have considered possible in our modern world: How people can be so completely oblivious to what's happening in front of their noses. All it takes is a cute-looking expert in manipulation, and people will swallow the most ridiculous excuses without flinching. Makes me even more pessimistic about the ability of western civilizations to withstand the unholy alliance of politics and media power.

At the going rate, I guess that the show could show QB with bloody fangs sunk deep into a girls' corpse's neck evilly snickering about how stupid she was, and people would still insist that he's never been lying. After all, the girl was stupid.

Absolutely fascinating. Well then, let's wait and see how our little bunny and his alien friends are going to solve the entropy crisis of the universe. This is gonna be great ^_^

[FlareKnight]

Well this is bad. I mean they've effectively removed anyone likable from the series. Sure they can do that, but at this point I won't be bothered by anything. Make Madoka a witch, blow up the planet, I will be unmoved.

Quite the evil little organization though. Sure go massacre people since you say it's better for the universe. Definitely at this point can't believe a single word that Kyubey says. Considering how much has been left unmentioned and what has been done there isn't any reason to trust the little monster. Sucks for the Earth since this is one of the worst alien attacks. Can't realize what's happening and can't seem to destroy them either.

[Fishbait]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well this is bad. I mean they've effectively removed anyone likable from the series. Sure they can do that, but at this point I won't be bothered by anything. Make Madoka a witch, blow up the planet, I will be unmoved.

Wow there, let's not push opinions into facts now

[Malkuth]

Whether QB is lying or not has more to do with how each viewer perceives the world; if you want to over-simplify and tag everything as good or evil, than it is lying and is evil; on the other hand, if shades of gray can fit in your palette of thought, and you wish to over-analyze, it is just cynical, and emotionaless, plus if its rant about the universe is not false, it never lied, just manipulated. In either case, kudos to Gen, for pulling this off

[Crontica]

Ugh, i cant take this anymore, can we have the people who agree that Kyubei is utter crap (Mentar, Solace etc, etc) to try and see if there's any clues we missed in the show and leave the people to dabble over who's definitions are correct to themselves?

What i've gathered so far is that ep 1 and 9 have the same witch map which resembles a chessboard, and the same ost as in the ED.

Ep 1: QB: "Help me Madoka she's trying to kill me!"
Ep 8: *Leveled to swiss cheese* "There's no point in doing that i got endless lives"

A clear attempt in dragging Madoka into this mess.

The only thing i got in the witch map in ep 1 was butterflies and golf balls.

Most of the witches map's for some reason seem to reflect the girls inner stifle.

When Madoka went to go and save Hitomi she was lead into the witches map where she was shown reflections of Mami's death, was that Madoka's thoughts? Or was that witch Mami herself.

When Mami died the map she was in had the words "Caution" with beheaded dolls on the wall.

Is Homura a witch? We never once got a clear view of her soul gem even doe the purple gem on her hand gives the impression of it, the room Homura and Kyoko were discussing was definitely a witches map.

The map where Sayaka was fighting the tentacle monster the mountain was the shape of a church cross, there's a wikipedia entry of that cross but i cant find it: http://ambivalen.wordpress.com/2011/...oka-episode-7/

Mami's symbol is unknown, Homura has a diamond on her hand, Sayaka Moon shape, Kyoko an Eclipse. Photos here: http://kiasukid.blogspot.com/2011/03...ols-short.html

Are there any other definitions in the japanese language for Witch and Magi?

Since i haven't watched Kobato yet can anyone who has spread light on what the people in that anime do with the collected grief?

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Fishbait

Wow there, let's not push opinions into facts now

If I have to seriously add at the end of every post "in my opinion" I'll have to throw something....Kind of have faith in people to be able to differentiate things that are opinions and things that are facts.