Character Discussion - Kallen

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Ok I'll go with the cocky part. She definetly thought she was invincible,at least till Xing Ke showed up and she forgot to change/charge the Guren's energy filler.
.

Well...she is invincible, in a way. XD

Plus, she didn't recharge was more of a time issue rather than her not wanting to. She is a smart ace, she won't charge in headlong to a battle unprepared unless if the situation is desperate.

And it was.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Just three hint for not ruin the surprise:
2: Theodore was always absent, he gived the entire responsability (house, daughter, staff...) to her wife, but considering Romilda doesn't care of nothing, you can imagine his reaction.

It's easy for fans of Kallen to deride and think the worst of her stepmother, but I'm interested in just how you'll portray her. Is she a gold-digger (an English term for a woman who marries a man just to lay her hands on his fortune upon divorce or his death) or just a trophy spouse Theodore married for the wrong reasons in your story?

I don't think Italian politicians are any stranger to jumping from spouse to spouse (even while still married). I'm sure Berlusconi's example is just one in a long and sordid legacy in the history of Italian politics.

[Bonzo]

Oh, well, in Italy every man with more money in the pocket has a divorce in the shoulders, politicians, manager, etc...

About Theodore marriage, it was a "arranged marriage" enough common in noble families, I'll explain more by PM, otherwise too much spoiler.

[Badkarma 1]

Well seems I really stepped in it this time! But I'll debate a few things said here!
First Blade excuses don't win battles! The pilot(ace or otherwise)IS the ONLY one responsible for the condition of their ship!! To blame the ground crew for "dropping the ball"is the mark of a rookie or someone who doesn't care!
There are 3 kinds of aces my friend; Those who do of for glory,Those who do it for recognition,and Those who can turn the tide of battle. Aces LEAD their wing and support their weakest pilot! Kallen was out there trying to gain Lelouchs attention just look at the scene between them when she lands after being freed.
Paladinoras: I beg to differ, she did INDEED charge into battle during the last showdown! Xing Ke had to call her back to hold the line!
IMO Kallens gullibility is only challenged by her naiveity!!

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

First Blade excuses don't win battles! The pilot(ace or otherwise)IS the ONLY one responsible for the condition of their ship!! To blame the ground crew for "dropping the ball"is the mark of a rookie or someone who doesn't care!

By this logic all commercial airline pilots would be to blame for any mechanical faults in the aircraft they pilot. Kallen is not a mechanic. The people who should have replaced the energy filler didn't get to it. Her only mistake is not checking, which she may have actually done and just figured she could hold out. In which case arrogance would be the issue, and this is something no character suffers from a lack of.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

There are 3 kinds of aces my friend; Those who do of for glory,Those who do it for recognition,and Those who can turn the tide of battle. Aces LEAD their wing and support their weakest pilot! Kallen was out there trying to gain Lelouchs attention just look at the scene between them when she lands after being freed.

This is flawed logic at its finest. There are not three kinds of aces, and certainly not the three horrible examples you try to provide. An ace who does it for the glory may also do it for recognition, and may be so good as to turn the tide of battles. See, your categories mean nothing. Aces don't support their weak members, not in a conventional sense, anyway. This would imply they're wasting time protecting people too incompetent to defend themselves (Tamaki) rather than actually fighting. An ace leads their squad, but by the same token they're at the front taking down the most enemies. That's what an ace is. Someone who gets the job done and does so with more competence than those around them.

To your last point, yes she was trying to prove something, but she was also the only one capable of facing Xingke. The ace goes out and fights the tough battles, and that's what she did.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Paladinoras: I beg to differ, she did INDEED charge into battle during the last showdown! Xing Ke had to call her back to hold the line!
IMO Kallens gullibility is only challenged by her naiveity!!

Enough with the exclamation points, already. She is neither excessively gullible or naive, no more than your average person is. If you're using her interactions with Lelouch as a base, then the entire cast must be so. She also didn't charge at all. She got carried away in her attack and overextended. There's a difference.

[Badkarma 1]

Morbosfist; Yes ALL pilots are responsible for there planes. Even commercial pilots are known to converse with a crew chief or fill out a 'laundry' list and turn it in at the end of a flight,plus they always run a checklist before takeoff. Indeed who was it that successfully landed his plane in the Hudson River? The crew chief no the pilot!
Never said Kallen had to be a mechanic but she should've had at least a working knowledge of what the Guren needed to be ready to fight. Didn't they show Tohdohs KMF being recharged just prior to this? Seemed like it didn't take that long.
As for the ace thing;Most aces don't advertise their abilities especially to the enemy hell they already know who's who. Her saying to Xing Ke that "I am the Ace of the Black Knights" is like me wear a bright colored suit while in Afganistan saying "I am an American". In other words, now everybodies gonna take a shot at you! And if your not at least trying to take care of your fellow pilots by covering them then don't expect them to help you and in a real fight your gonna need all the help you can!
Gullibility and Naievity; Depends on the person life experiences and although Kallen's life so far has been sucky(moms on refrain,dads gone all the time,big brothers dead 'n buried and she's fighting for the Japanese despite being half Brit) she doesn't have slot to draw from. Coinsidering this I'd be better forming my own wing,and not having to worry about a loose cannon.

[Rising Dragon]

"Those who do of for glory, Those who do it for recognition, and Those who can turn the tide of battle."

*facepalms*

So now we're dragging Ace Combat Zero into this?

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Morbosfist; Yes ALL pilots are responsible for there planes. Even commercial pilots are known to converse with a crew chief or fill out a 'laundry' list and turn it in at the end of a flight,plus they always run a checklist before takeoff. Indeed who was it that successfully landed his plane in the Hudson River? The crew chief no the pilot!

Both pilot and repair crew share responsibility for a vehicle, as well Kallen was responding to the appearance of an undocumented superweapon that had intercepted their course when Zero had said they should expect smooth sailing for another hour at least, and took out several armed 7th generation knightmares. She was hasty, but she was doing it to save the lives of her countrymen.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Never said Kallen had to be a mechanic but she should've had at least a working knowledge of what the Guren needed to be ready to fight. Didn't they show Tohdohs KMF being recharged just prior to this? Seemed like it didn't take that long.

Again, she was responding to an unknown, but clearly high end machine that was killing her allies and for all she knew was acting to delay their advancement, thus not taking it out quickly would allow the Eunuchs to overtake them. This is precisely what they were doing.

Also, the mechanic told Tohdoh that they had just removed his float system. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how effective a ground based weapon would be against an airborn one.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

As for the ace thing;Most aces don't advertise their abilities especially to the enemy hell they already know who's who. Her saying to Xing Ke that "I am the Ace of the Black Knights" is like me wear a bright colored suit while in Afganistan saying "I am an American". In other words, now everybodies gonna take a shot at you! And if your not at least trying to take care of your fellow pilots by covering them then don't expect them to help you and in a real fight your gonna need all the help you can!.

Or "Hey, I'm important, ignore my friends and focus only on killing me!"

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Gullibility and Naievity; Depends on the person life experiences and although Kallen's life so far has been sucky(moms on refrain,dads gone all the time,big brothers dead 'n buried and she's fighting for the Japanese despite being half Brit) she doesn't have slot to draw from. Coinsidering this I'd be better forming my own wing,and not having to worry about a loose cannon.

What?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Morbosfist; Yes ALL pilots are responsible for there planes. Even commercial pilots are known to converse with a crew chief or fill out a 'laundry' list and turn it in at the end of a flight,plus they always run a checklist before takeoff. Indeed who was it that successfully landed his plane in the Hudson River? The crew chief no the pilot!

What are you talking about? The pilot landed it. The crew chief wouldn't even have been on the aircraft. Honestly, if you're going to provide an example, some context wouldn't hurt.

Nevertheless, if some part in the vehicle failed, they would not be responsible. They're not responsible for installing parts, maintaining them, etc. They check off the basics before takeoff. They can't (and don't) check every single part.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Never said Kallen had to be a mechanic but she should've had at least a working knowledge of what the Guren needed to be ready to fight. Didn't they show Tohdohs KMF being recharged just prior to this? Seemed like it didn't take that long.

They showed the flight unit being taken off. More to the point, Lelouch specifically had Kallen's unit put on the back burner so the mechanics could get other units combat ready. The Guren was ready to fight, just not for very long.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

As for the ace thing;Most aces don't advertise their abilities especially to the enemy hell they already know who's who. Her saying to Xing Ke that "I am the Ace of the Black Knights" is like me wear a bright colored suit while in Afganistan saying "I am an American". In other words, now everybodies gonna take a shot at you! And if your not at least trying to take care of your fellow pilots by covering them then don't expect them to help you and in a real fight your gonna need all the help you can!

This is a Super Robot show. People brag. They do it constantly. They do it in damn near every Super Robot show there is. Stop trying to apply conventions where they don't work. Kallen was facing a single opponent, not an entire army, so your analogy fails right there.

You know who's supposed to cover you in a fight? Your wingman. The ace isn't supposed to be darting all over the battlefield trying to protect every last man. No one in any situation is. People have their job to do and they do it. If they can't do it, they get killed. While it is prudent to rescue them when possible, it isn't wise or even sane to do so at the expense of everything else.

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Gullibility and Naievity; Depends on the person life experiences and although Kallen's life so far has been sucky(moms on refrain,dads gone all the time,big brothers dead 'n buried and she's fighting for the Japanese despite being half Brit) she doesn't have slot to draw from. Coinsidering this I'd be better forming my own wing,and not having to worry about a loose cannon.

You've said nothing that proves she's either, and as BetterOffer points out your comment doesn't even make any sense. All you've done is claim that you know better (which I have to say seems somewhat doubtful given that you're quoting Ace Combat). How is she gullible or naive? Explain.

[bladeofdarkness]

lets see....

one unit against a larger force
----------------------------------------------
*suzaku standing in the middle of an entire enemy army in the EU and telling them "surrender or die", trying to challenge kallen toudo and the 4 holy swords on his own, and later going alone against the knights of rounds
*xing-ke standing in front of the black knights alone and basiclly telling them "none shall pass"
*cornellia standing in the middle of the mountain in narita declaring "i'm here, isn't anyone going to try and kill me"
*anya landing in the middle of xing-ke's forces and telling them "rebel forces are to be destroyed"

one on one dual when the unit powers are clearly none compatible
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*cornellia facing kallen, seeing that the guren is far from a normal machine, and then saying "big deal, i just have to beat it" and taking on the gawein in single combat
*gino seeing kallen tear bradly apart in seconds, then seeing her block suzaku's hadron blaster with ease, and then asking "suzaku, can you let ME take her on"
*suzaku seeing the above mentioned and figuring "no, she's too strong for gino, so I have to take her on alone" (which is like what kallen was doing against xing-ke, only less curb-stompy)
*xing-ke, toudo, and gino all trying to take suzaku on on their own after seeing (and in gino's case, feeling) what he can do on live tv the other day

in other words, ace pilots in code geass behave in a very particular way that is quite different from how normal ace's act in real life
because this is a Mecha anime, where ace pilots really CAN take on armies on their own, and where the only thing that can match an ace pilot, is another ace pilot
and kallen is FAR from being the only one who is, either arrogant about their skill, or naive in thinking they can take on anyone, no matter how powerful or outnumbered, and win
so taking a trait that is shared by ALL ace pilots in this show, and attributing it to kallen alone, as if its a unique flaw in her case, is hardly fair.

[Bonzo]

They just followed a play script.

In the "R2Rcomic", Nonette will ask to Kallen if she was really the best knightmare pilot like Suzaku said, but Kallen will reply like a intelligent and modest woman do:

"Yes, I was strong, but not so strong, I just had the best knightmare, only a fair fight using the same weapons could tell who's the best pilot!"

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Paladinoras: I beg to differ, she did INDEED charge into battle during the last showdown! Xing Ke had to call her back to hold the line!
IMO Kallens gullibility is only challenged by her naiveity!!

Debates are fun.

And I beg to differ as well, I won't argue that she indeed charged into the midst of battle during the last showdown...but...so what? What makes Kallen strong is her unwavering dedication to her emotions. During that last battle, she wanted to defeat Lelouch with her own hands, out of love. While that don't make much sense, emotions was what powered her charge and it didn't end up so bad. Aces are only humans too, and while some might argue that they have to consider "the greater good" of the army, aces are supposed to turn any situation to be beneficial to their army. And Kallen did just that, if Suzaku had run amok any further, her army would have been slaughtered.

[bladeofdarkness]

i think he means before mount fuji went off
at THAT point she charged a head of the force at first and was called back by xing-ke
although, like i said, this is FAR from a unique trait to kallen
almost all ace pilots act that way, and suzaku for example, is considerably more guilty of this then kallen is (although, to be fair, he WANTS to die)

[Badkarma 1]

Ok I obviously hit a nerve here and it wasn't my intention to start a flame war!
First I quoted Ace Combat because well, it sounded cool. Truthfully I know zip about piloting and flying(unless you count riding in the back of a C-130 awaiting a HALO jump),I'm in the Navy and am what is referred to as a 'ground pounder' I'm not allowed to tell you who I am or what I do. Let's just say when I talk about Afganistan I know what I'm talking about.
Secondly I guess I did try to interject a little reality where none exsits by using my own experiences as a reference.
Lastly I aplogise for getting everybody so worked up don't worry as I just got word I'll be redeploying in May so I'll be gone soon enough! In any event I'll be leaving this thread alone from now on. So carry on Badkarma 1 out.

[morbosfist]

That be Kallen fans for ya, at least on this forum. We're a vocal bunch.

As you note, using real-life conventions just doesn't work, which ultimately is part of the problem. When it comes to Super Robot conventions, Kallen is practically mellow by comparison.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That be Kallen fans for ya, at least on this forum. We're a vocal bunch.

Spoiler for ah:

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That be Kallen fans for ya, at least on this forum. We're a vocal bunch.

True that. Step even the slightest bit out of line and they'll go Spanish Inquisition on your ass.

Oh, and yvj, I don't about anyone else, but all I'm getting is a red x of death for your pic.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Badkarma 1

Ok I obviously hit a nerve here and it wasn't my intention to start a flame war!
First I quoted Ace Combat because well, it sounded cool. Truthfully I know zip about piloting and flying(unless you count riding in the back of a C-130 awaiting a HALO jump),I'm in the Navy and am what is referred to as a 'ground pounder' I'm not allowed to tell you who I am or what I do. Let's just say when I talk about Afganistan I know what I'm talking about.
Secondly I guess I did try to interject a little reality where none exsits by using my own experiences as a reference.
Lastly I aplogise for getting everybody so worked up don't worry as I just got word I'll be redeploying in May so I'll be gone soon enough! In any event I'll be leaving this thread alone from now on. So carry on Badkarma 1 out.

Lol, it's actually just for fun, I didn't mean to scare you off or anything, I just retorted cause I felt what you said was wrong. No harm done.

[Bonzo]

Okay, it's better ignore that kind of discussion, otherwise the moderators delete 20-30 posts.

Then a preview of Kallen comic, page 2:

Spoiler for Spoiler:

The page has a different structure, in the middle the key-events of Kazuki-stadfteld family, in the sides the dialogue between Kallen and her daddy.
There's just a little doubt, if Theodore was Naoto's father too, everyone agreed with the answer "yes!" like bladeofdarkness suggested?

Note: don't be scared if Kallen's right arm seems big, there's the plaster under the mourning dress.

[Arbitres]

Kallen-chan is great.... -fanboyish swoon-

I guess I got here alittle too late for the politics, too bad~

Regardless, the comic is nice. Though I don't quite understand what the current discussion is, I can't really be offtopic if i'm talking about Kallen?

The Middle panel is somewhat beyond me, could naoto possibly be a half brother? Or an adopted Brother?...

...Well, I can't really say Kallen is perfect, she has her quirks (stubbornness, desire to prove self.) But I find these motivation to like her quite abit. But I guess all the characters are like that. Though martyrdom is hard to come by these days, so Kallen is easier to relate to then some, neh?