Is itatchi a "super genious" compared to others??

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Just thought about it...but....MS doesnt work on Byakugan right?
The Byakugan only sees the internal stuff...and doesnt look at the "eye" even when looking at the eye..

Neji probably can see alot of chakra heading to the eye (like he saw that Spiderman do to his mouth...)

So i think MS:Tsukyomi wont work unless Byakugan goes offline and looking at it with normal eyes..

The Byakugan sees both internal and external stuff, the Byakugan sees everything.
That's why Neji could describe Hinata's eyes when he activated the Byakugan.

[Sazelyt]

Regarding Haku:

Originally Posted by Hunter

I'm not completely sure I understand what you mean, care to elaborate? ^^

I was mostly referring to the way Haku moves between the mirrors, and how his image changes in each mirror after he moves. The way he moved was taking place outside the mirror, but very fast. And Sasuke noticed that before he awakened the Sharingan.

After he awakened Sharingan, he started to see Haku's movements. I don't know how much Haku's ice elemental usage takes place during his movement between the mirrors, but I doubt that is what Sasuke observed to track Haku's movements. I am not saying he cannot solve the chakra-based operation of the jutsu, I am just saying at that time, he seemed to be using only the body-movement related prediction capability of Sharingan, rather than the chakra-molding related prediction.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Maybe the Sharingan can't see the internal chakra system the way Byakugan can, but instead sees the aura surrounding the opponent. When someone focuses a large amount of chakra, the aura becomes visible (like Naruto's often does) but normally is too faint to be seen by normal eyes. Perhaps the Sharingan can see these faint chakra auras and see irregularties.

I don't think that is exactly the case.

Spoiler:

As we have seen in the Kakashi Gaiden, the Sharingan user can be able to obtain a view of the internal chakra system, but in a less-detailed way compared to the Byagukan.

[Suna no tate]

Using spoiler tags is annoying. If the title of the thread has spoiler in it, why is it necessary for everyone to use spoiler in their posts? Due warning has already been given!

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure the byakugan users can see in the dark, but I'll have to look to see if I can find a specific example. As for the sharingan users needing light to see, that is a distinct possibility. Though it wouldn't explain how it is that kakashi simply turns off his sharingan by placing a cloth in front of it. Even more, it doesn't explain the sharingans apparent inability to penetrate walls and other types of substances. For example, kakashi can't see through leaves (he couldn't detect sasuke when he was hiding in the bushes). A byakugan user would never be fooled by that. Sasuke's chakra would be so easily seen. Instead for kakashi's situation at least, we must say that his sharingan is blocked by the cloth.

In the kakashi gaiden, I don't remember obito distinctly showing that he can see the chakra through clothes. This is off a crude memory, but the ninja he fought against was using some sort of camouflage jutsu which of course would be visible to the sharingan. He can see chakra through your skin. In fact when he first said he could see chakra flow, he was specifically looking at his hands. The same can be applied to rin. So I'm not sure if the kakashi gaiden gives any distinct proof the the sharingan can indeed penetrate clothes. We've already had reference to a chakra aura, chakra that just leaks out. I would say not because against itachi, kakashi couldn't keep up with the jutsus (there was no reference to hand seal speed, just jutsu speed). I personally believe he had difficulty keeping up because he couldn't see the seals formed because they were performed under a cloak. At best he might see, chakra that leaks out elsewhere.This would be in line with the hindered vision theory as well as the previous zabuza explanation. The sharingan just can't penetrate all that well.

To finish the point, lets say we play a game where a ninja is in a large clear box made out of glass and kakashi is present. The game is kakashi has to write down the seal sequence performed by the ninja. The ninja will perform a 25 seal sequence entirely under the cloak. kakashi of course flawless replicates the sequence. Then a large black thick curtain is draped over the glass box to where the ninja is completely hidden from sight. He produces a new 25 seal sequence. Can kakashi replicate this sequence?

In essence the vision is limited and the techniqes that cam be copied have to be limited to that which can be seen. If the chakra molding and mixing is too fine, it just makes sense that the jutsu cannot be copied simply by vision.

As for Mr Johnny's question, the real issue with the MS is the fact that it uses a sort of time dilation property. In reality it lasts for a second, not enough time to even realize its genjutsu in real time.

As for subaku kyu's question, I'll address it later after a bit of thought

*A byakugan user probably doesn't need light. After all, in the gaara rescue arc, one of the tags was in a cave and the byakugan user could still see it, even from a very long distance away. Even more, inside your body there is absolutely no light. it is pitch black, yet a byakugan user can see your internal workings. finally, the fact that the byakugan user can penetrate walls means their vision is not light based.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Spoiler:

In the kakashi gaiden, I don't remember obito distinctly showing that he can see the chakra through clothes. This is off a crude memory, but the ninja he fought against was using some sort of camouflage jutsu which of course would be visible to the sharingan. He can see chakra through your skin. In fact when he first said he could see chakra flow, he was specifically looking at his hands. The same can be applied to rin. So I'm not sure if the kakashi gaiden gives any distinct proof the the sharingan can indeed penetrate clothes.

Spoiler:

Remember that The Rock Nins had Rin captive and Obito could tell that Rin had a unusual Chakra Activity which help Kakshi conclude she was under a Genjutsu.

We got a glimpse of Rins entire inner Chakra Activity

[Suna no tate]

A response for subaku kyu

Spoiler:

[QUOTE=Sabaku Kyu;745399]
In your personal opinion, do you think that Kakashi copied his MS from Itachi or that he somehow discovered on it his own by training his Sharingan during the timeskip?

This relates back to the subject of Itachi's genius in one way and it involves the early age at which he gained his Sharingan. I argued that unlike Sasuke and Obito, who gained Sharingan through traumatic experiences, Itachi was able to gain Sharingan merely by training (being advanced enough to manipulate his chakra on a level to awaken his body's dormant Sharingan ability). I came up with this because he was a genin during a time of peace when he got his Sharingan, so he would've only been assigned low-ranked missions at this time. I don't see any situations intense enough for a Sharingan to manifest itself the way it did for Sasuke and Obito on these type of missions, especially for a genius like Itachi. It was then argued that gaining the Sharingan through training wasn't possible, since if it was, one could train to obtain MS. Of course, it might be that this was the way Kakashi got the MS, since we really don't know the "requirement" that's needed to gain MS.

So can the Sharingan be upgraded/activated by training enough? Or does it depend entirely on luck, bloodline strength, instinct or copying?

Now for my response and again with the spoilers

Spoiler:

Well for one thing, when Sasuke got his sharingan, it too was a time of peace. Circumstances just worked out to where he was placed in such grave danger. So we cannot assume that Itachi didn't somehow experience the same.
As for training to pull out the sharingan, I still find the idea dubious. After all if it was established that an uchiha child could train to pull out his sharingan even at 8, then more than likely that's what would be taught to the uchiha children at that age. After all, we've already seen that as soon as someone in the uchiha clan is capable of achieving a jutsu, they give him the tools necessary. As soon as it becomes even slightly possible for the child to learn the fireball jutsu, he is taught the seal sequence. If training could pull out a jutsu, more than likely sasuke would have been given the training and especially that obito who was especially late in pulling out his sharingan (14, I believe!). Obito was so late! So I doubt you can train to pull out the sharingan.

However you can probably train to help develop it and use it. I believe that the MS isn't limited to just the 3 techniques we've seen. When sasuke pulls out his MS, I doubt he'll be using amaterasu or tsukuyomi. I'd say the MS is just a particular conformation that allows even greater use of the sharingan eye and is not limited to just the 3 techniqes. That would explain why Itachi doesn't have kakashi's MS attack, and how Kakashi doesn't have itachi's (even after he has seen tsukuyomi in the past!). How you choose to use it, that is which techniques you receive or possibly choose to create, is entirely dependent ont he person.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

For example, kakashi can't see through leaves (he couldn't detect sasuke when he was hiding in the bushes).

I think Kakahsi had a good idea were Sasuke was, as he could sense it, also Kakashi was not using the Sharingan.

I would say not because against itachi, kakashi couldn't keep up with the jutsus (there was no reference to hand seal speed, just jutsu speed). I personally believe he had difficulty keeping up because he couldn't see the seals formed because they were performed under a cloak. At best he might see, chakra that leaks out elsewhere.This would be in line with the hindered vision theory as well as the previous zabuza explanation. The sharingan just can't penetrate all that well.

The translation you have on chapter 142 is most likely mistranslated, but even with that, the Message that it was trying to be directed at the reader was that The speed in which Itahci made the Jutsu, was so fast that Kakshi could not keep up with those movements, in this case the manner of which Itahci was creating Jutsus was made on a speed that overwhelmed Kakshi even when he had the Sharingan that could predict movements.

The Cloak definitely did not had anything to do with it, because if it were so, WE would had been hinted about it.

Im going and make a observation about the difference between Cloth and Skin, I will say Kakashi only uses the Cloth of the Head Protector so it helps his eye lid stay shut, you and home can do this exercise, Close one of your eyes, now place on hand IN that Closes eye.

Tell me how is better, keeping the eye close without the Hand or With the Hand? This is the same principle as Cyclops from X-men,, When Cyclops sometimes lost his visor he has no control of his Optic beams, however he can shut them down by closing his eyes, in moment were Cyclops has lost both His Sun Glasses and Visor, what he always does is take a piece of Cloth and cover his eye, is not that this piece of cloth can stop Cyclops from shooting beams from the eyes, but is that this piece of Cloth in his eye will help Cyclops to keep his eye shut better than having nothing at all.

Now, Maybe with the Eyelid shut the Sharingan visibility turns to cero, just as the only thing that stops Cyclops blast, is his eyelid close. maybe because the eyelid skin actually comes in contact with the Iris and cornea, and thus taking away the vissibility of the eye.

To finish the point, lets say we play a game where a ninja is in a large clear box made out of glass and kakashi is present. The game is kakashi has to write down the seal sequence performed by the ninja. The ninja will perform a 25 seal sequence entirely under the cloak. kakashi of course flawless replicates the sequence. Then a large black thick curtain is draped over the glass box to where the ninja is completely hidden from sight. He produces a new 25 seal sequence. Can kakashi replicate this sequence?

Who knows?…you created a scenario that are hard to tell given the information we got.

In essence the vision is limited and the techniqes that cam be copied have to be limited to that which can be seen. If the chakra molding and mixing is too fine, it just makes sense that the jutsu cannot be copied simply by vision.

I did not understand you.

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Spoiler:

However you can probably train to help develop it and use it. I believe that the MS isn't limited to just the 3 techniques we've seen. When sasuke pulls out his MS, I doubt he'll be using amaterasu or tsukuyomi. I'd say the MS is just a particular conformation that allows even greater use of the sharingan eye and is not limited to just the 3 techniqes. That would explain why Itachi doesn't have kakashi's MS attack, and how Kakashi doesn't have itachi's (even after he has seen tsukuyomi in the past!). How you choose to use it, that is which techniques you receive or possibly choose to create, is entirely dependent ont he person.

Spoiler:

two things, yeah, training the MS so you can develop Jutsus which are impossible of doing without the MS is a possibility, however I doubt that MS can be gained by training, if it were that easy, MS would had not been such rare and Taboo item, and ore coming from Genius clan that had probably Hundreds of years of existence

And then you could be right about a MS Jutsus been Unique for each person, for know we can’t really tell if Itachi has Kakashi Jutsu, and That Kakashi has Itachi Jutsus

[Suna no tate]

The sharingan user can't see as well as byakugan user. Lets say there is jutsu with chakra movement at the level that the byakugan user can see* but at that level the sharingan user can't see. Can the sharingan copy that jutsu simply by his vision? You can't copy what you can't see.

*lets say you use your tenketsu to do something. I choose tenketsu because that is something specifically stated that the byakugan user can see but the sharingan can. However, I'm sure there are less "fine" and less "subtle" things that only the byakugan user can see. I just choose this example because its a stated one.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

The sharingan user can't see as well as byakugan user. Lets say there is jutsu with chakra movement at the level that the byakugan user can see* but at that level the sharingan user can't see. Can the sharingan copy that jutsu simply by his vision? You can't copy what you can't see

*lets say you use your tenketsu to do something. I choose tenketsu because that is something specifically stated that the byakugan user can see but the sharingan can. However, I'm sure there are less "fine" and less "subtle" things that only the byakugan user can see. I just choose this example because its a stated one.

What does it means when you refers to Chakra movement?

And then, taking the Tenketsus example, the Sharingan don’t need to see the tenketsus to tell that the Chkara is been released from specific spot on the body, is just like the Chakra Flow, the Sharingan does not see the Chakra pathway were the Chakra is transported, but still the Sharingan do his copy job.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Regarding Haku: I was mostly referring to the way Haku moves between the mirrors, and how his image changes in each mirror after he moves. The way he moved was taking place outside the mirror, but very fast. And Sasuke noticed that before he awakened the Sharingan.

Ha I see where our perspective differ now : I don't think Haku was forced to leave a mirror to pass to another if he didn't want to attack. Once he was inside he could pass instantaneously into another and even being in all of them at the same time (don't ask me how).
So in order for Sasuke to know from which one the attack was coming he had to interpret the chakra inside the mirrors hence why I don't see it as body-movement related prediction.

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Using spoiler tags is annoying. If the title of the thread has spoiler in it, why is it necessary for everyone to use spoiler in their posts? Due warning has already been given!

That's pretty much the point Suna, the title of this thread doesn't have spoiler tag.

I think I wasn't clear enough when I exposed my thought about the Byakugan seeing or not in the dark.
The point isn't that they can see thing in the dark... But if they can see if their eyes are in the dark which is quite different ^^
Sazelyt mentioned Neji watching just fine inside Jiroubou's rock jutsu but if I remember well they were all able to see easily so I guess it wasn't so dark.
I don't firmly believe that though, the Byakugan could also see everything no matter the physical environment.
In the other hand it does seem to be the case for the Sharingan or there would be no point for Kakashi to hide his eye.

Spoiler:

And it's certain that the Sharingan see internal chakra through cloths, there is a panel showing Rin's whole body full of "chakra waves" when Obito look at her.

Not only that but we know since the fight between Sasuke and Naruto that the prediction ability of the Sharingan works by analyzing the subbtle relations between chakra and muscles which would be impossible if it couldn't see internal chakra.
I also remember a direct reference to Itachi's handseal speed by Kakashi chap142 or so but the chapter was mistranslated back then.

The sharingan user can't see as well as byakugan user. Lets say there is jutsu with chakra movement at the level that the byakugan user can see* but at that level the sharingan user can't see. Can the sharingan copy that jutsu simply by his vision? You can't copy what you can't see.

While it's true that you can't copy what you can't see I think this is a wrong example.
Again it's not really that the Sharingan doesn't see as well as the Byakugan chakra flow, it's rather that their vision is entirely different and don't focus on the same thing.
On a physical level the vision of the Byakugan is unmatched, in your example a Byakugan user would clearly see the chakra passing through the real chakra pathway, a real good Byakugan user could even see from which Tenketsu the chakra is released.
A Sharingan user will see nothing of the sort, he will see chakra wave-like that the Sharingan will interpret precisely as X amount of chakra built in Y way is traveling toward this point for Z purpose(s).

Where the Byakugan sees everything, the Sharingan explains/translates/interprets everything.


Btw we are awfully off topic, this discussion clearly belongs to the Sharingan vs. Byakugan thread :P

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sazelyt mentioned Neji watching just fine inside Jiroubou's rock jutsu but if I remember well they were all able to see easily so I guess it wasn't so dark.

YUp., Shikamaru was analyzing the Behavior of Jiroubous Jutsu upon Kiba's attacks.

Btw we are awfully off topic, this discussion clearly belongs to the Sharingan vs. Byakugan thread :P

I been thinking that since 2 days ago

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Im going and make a observation about the difference between Cloth and Skin, I will say Kakashi only uses the Cloth of the Head Protector so it helps his eye lid stay shut, you and home can do this exercise, Close one of your eyes, now place on hand IN that Closes eye.

Tell me how is better, keeping the eye close without the Hand or With the Hand? This is the same principle as Cyclops from X-men,, When Cyclops sometimes lost his visor he has no control of his Optic beams, however he can shut them down by closing his eyes, in moment were Cyclops has lost both His Sun Glasses and Visor, what he always does is take a piece of Cloth and cover his eye, is not that this piece of cloth can stop Cyclops from shooting beams from the eyes, but is that this piece of Cloth in his eye will help Cyclops to keep his eye shut better than having nothing at all.

Now, Maybe with the Eyelid shut the Sharingan visibility turns to cero, just as the only thing that stops Cyclops blast, is his eyelid close. maybe because the eyelid skin actually comes in contact with the Iris and cornea, and thus taking away the vissibility of the eye.


[/spoiler]

lol.. its funny x-men got pointed out in this forum, but i guess it works. It seems to be the case that sharingan turns off when your eyes are closed. It is told from the beginning of the manga believe, as well as insinuated his sharingan is off when his eye is closed and his head protector covers it. So we are forced to believe that while cloth may not stop it, his eye is always closed underneath it. Similiar to when you get an eye-patch from the doctor, it helps to keep your eye closed so it can heal.

It was pointed out that sharingan isn't as perceptive as byakugen, but i didn't realize that sharingan could actually see a slight perspective that byakugen can. Can anyone post the chapter it was on, or host page where obito looks at rin's "chakra waves". Its been so long i had forgotten it had happened.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

It was pointed out that sharingan isn't as perceptive as byakugen, but i didn't realize that sharingan could actually see a slight perspective that byakugen can. Can anyone post the chapter it was on, or host page where obito looks at rin's "chakra waves". Its been so long i had forgotten it had happened.

Spoiler for Sharingan's view of chakra:

[deaddeath]

Neji can compare to Itachi because their both genuious. Sasuke can't compare 2 neither of them even if he tryed. Neji is almost close to the age of Itachi. But even thou' Neji losed to Naruto doesn't mean he can't compare to the genius from the Uchiha clan.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Spoiler for Sharingan's view of chakra:

Ah i see, thats certainly a lot more vague than the byakugen =p. Thanks for the post!!

[astayanax]

The main difference between Neji and Itachi is this:

Neji is an unbelievable prodigy of the Hyuuga clan but he was MUCH weaker than his uncle, the leader of the Hyuuga clan.

Spoiler:

I think after timeskip, Neji is STILL weaker than Hisashi

Itachi is an unbelievable prodigy of the Uchiha clan, but he was MUCH stronger than everyone else in his clan, hence why (if you believe the stories) single handingly take out the clan.

NB/ (I know there is the supposed 3rd MS user, but since we haven't seen him yet, ignoring him)

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by astayanax

The main difference between Neji and Itachi is this:

Neji is an unbelievable prodigy of the Hyuuga clan but he was MUCH weaker than his uncle, the leader of the Hyuuga clan.

Spoiler:

I think after timeskip, Neji is STILL weaker than Hisashi

Itachi is an unbelievable prodigy of the Uchiha clan, but he was MUCH stronger than everyone else in his clan, hence why (if you believe the stories) single handingly take out the clan.

NB/ (I know there is the supposed 3rd MS user, but since we haven't seen him yet, ignoring him)

Yeah, this is a good point i tried to bring up also.

Neji seems to be very intelligent and hard-working. In this manner he is a great genious. However compared to Itatchi who was naturally gifted as a ninja in general (speed, talent, jutsu), he isn't what i consider a "super genious", which is being gifted at all aspects of a ninja.

This is painfully clear when Hiashi could easily overpower Neji during the chuunin exams, and at that point Itatchi could kill his entire clan.

[Medalist]

Can you actually define super genius more specific...sure he is indeed smarter than lots i'd presume..if he's able to kill his clan. And this is a very "distorted" thing because yes even Naruto is super genius compared to some 2 year olds. And so Itachi could easily compared to 2 way younger people and be super genius in comparison. And others means atleast more than one [noun] not pertaining to a specific type or oneself. Agree?

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Uchikatsu

Can you actually define super genius more specific...sure he is indeed smarter than lots i'd presume..if he's able to kill his clan. And this is a very "distorted" thing because yes even Naruto is super genius compared to some 2 year olds. And so Itachi could easily compared to 2 way younger people and be super genius in comparison. And others means atleast more than one [noun] not pertaining to a specific type or oneself. Agree?

Well when they refer to "genius" in the anime/manga it seems to be those who are strongly gifted/talented in an aspect of being a ninja.

Itatchi progressed faster than all the other proclaimed "genius'". Im thinking this is because he was more talented in all aspects of being a ninja.