Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by felix

Rita is clearly in the wrong.

To think Rita is in the wrong is the clearly wrong idea.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Two points related to the ongoing debate:

To be honest, the debate isn't really so much about whether or not Mashiro should go back, but rather looking at it from the perspective of her 'fans' and supporters of fine arts.


I find it hypocritical that people would say things like she shouldn't care about what those fans think, and yet it's quite possible when those people are affected themselves (when it comes to things that they really like) they would react negatively; Remember how many threads were made about Anime studio should make more of shows that they want and they should listen to their 'fans' etc etc... ?

Originally Posted by felix

Selfish means you care only for yourself. You can "go through life without caring one iota about other people" as you put it, yet not be selfish, by simple virtue of you caring for anything other then yourself (some kind of hobby, animals, etc, for example) to the extent that doesn't involve self-pandering. Introvert is more accurate.

"Who cares about what other people think, I'll do what I want..." pretty much sums up selfish.

(This isn't referring to Mashiro)

[Zavie]

My 2 cents:

I think Rita's reaction to Mashiro drawing manga is nothing unexpected. Her way of persuading Mashiro maybe extreme for some of us though. However, I think we need to take the consideration that we, the anime viewers, has followed Mashiro for a good amount of time to understand her passion for manga when wacthing Mashiro basically bailed her eyes out drawing. And it's different for Rita, who has not been with Mashiro for 6 months (correct me about this). She may had read her manga, but she didn't see how Mashiro was working on it, she didn't see Mashiro changed as a human and artist in her time spending in Sakurasou. So I supect this whole issue might just simply be a lack of communication. Mashiro didn't help much in this episode either when she didn't really explain how she felt (more like she couldn't) and you know as awkward as she can be, thing can only get worse for both ways.

About the issue on how people should appreciate their talent, sadly, I have to take Rita's side this time (sorry Mashiro). Asumming we're talking about one-in-a-billion kind of talent Mashiro has, I also thinks that she should use it to its full potiential for mankind. And that is just my opinion. I, unfortunately can't do anything about it though.

I mean, suppose there a genius sientist who was about to find out a cure for cancer, then he completely abandoned his research and tried to find a way to cure blindness instead (maybe one of his family memeber turned blind due to an accident). Now I know it's not the most accurate example to give, but I'm trying to demonstrate this matter on the feeling level, maybe that is how Rita feels about Mashiro. She might have her own agenda, but I think lots of it come from her obligatory to mankind, which everyone of us has to a certain degree.

Essentially though, Mashiro is the one who only can and will make her own desicion, and technically, I don't think Rita can do much about it. Rita only does things that she feels right and of course she would go out of her way for what she believes in.

I wouldn't make a big deal about Sorata's reaction at the end, I mean he texted Mashiro absolutely the right and sensible thing and he was just so surprise at Mashiro's painting talent. But I don't think that counts as his honest feeling about the issue.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by felix

With regard to your second point, not all "hopes" and "dreams" are positives, try as you might to make them so by surrounding them in your sentence with negatives.

What could be negative about wanting the world to have more beautiful artwork?!

The episode itself isn't as gray, Rita is clearly in the wrong. Is it because she wants Mashiro to go back to painting, and Mashiro currently doesn't feel like it? No. Different play on events could have yielded a "positive" impression. The wrong is she wants her to go to England, and now; as if either have any relation to her going back to painting.

My impression is that Rita doesn't trust that Mashiro will go back to painting unless Mashiro is under Rita's care and supervision again.

That being said, I get why this equating "going back to England" with "going back to painting" would seem odd to people. You can get great artwork out of Tokyo just as assuredly as you can get great artwork out of London.

However, I don't think that's the issue for Rita. It's that Rita wants to have Mashiro under her care, and out of her current environment where her manga hobby is strongly encouraged by fans of "sister" entertainment forms (such as anime).

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

"Who cares about what other people think, I'll do what I want..."[/I] pretty much sums up selfish.

Very well-said, and I completely agree. Which is why I didn't bother replying to the first part of Felix's post.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Zavie

My 2 cents:

I think Rita's reaction to Mashiro drawing manga is nothing unexpected. Her way of persuading Mashiro maybe extreme for some of us though. However, I think we need to take the consideration that we, the anime viewers, has followed Mashiro for a good amount of time to understand her passion for manga when wacthing Mashiro basically bailed her eyes out drawing. And it's different for Rita, who has not been with Mashiro for 6 months (correct me about this). She may had read her manga, but she didn't see how Mashiro was working on it, she didn't see Mashiro changed as a human and artist in her time spending in Sakurasou. So I supect this whole issue might just simply be a lack of communication. Mashiro didn't help much in this episode either when she didn't really explain how she felt (more like she couldn't) and you know as awkward as she can be, thing can only get worse for both ways.

About this, I'm pretty sure if Rita was her roomate for all those years, she would know exactly how Mashiro would be when she's working on something.

Even those random girls from her art class knows how absorbed she gets when painting.

Originally Posted by Zavie

Essentially though, Mashiro is the one who can and will make her own desicion, and technically, I don't think Rita can do much about it. Rita only does things that she feels right and of course she would go out of her way for what she believes in.

Yup, This is basically it- nobody is dragging Mashiro back to England (yet) There are two sides to this coin, and I don't see why Rita isn't allow to at least try to persuade Mashiro.

And don't say she's not allow to interfere with her life- if people haven't been interfering with each others lives for milleniums, I don't know how we'll ever get anything done.

Originally Posted by Zavie

I wouldn't make a big deal about Sorata's reaction at the end, I mean he texted Mashiro absolutly the right and sensible thing and he was just so surprise at Mashiro's painting talent. But I don't think that counts as his honest feeling about the issue.

Even Anime characters should be allow to have opinions.

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

About this, I'm pretty sure if Rita was her roomate for all those years, she would know exactly how Mashiro would be when she's working on something.

Even those random girls from her art class knows how absorbed she gets when painting.

My point is, if Rita persuades Mashiro and the Sakurasou folks the way she does for the sake of Mashiro's painting talent, Mashiro should do the same otherwise for her decision staying in Japan and drawing manga.

I know she is not cappable of doing that herself, but I'm trying to say that playing "I will stay here in Japan, I won't go back to England, get out Rita" is not not exactly helping her to get Rita undertanding either.

Rita said so herself that she's not an expert on manga, that's why Mashiro need to offer Rita her view as a profession mangaka now on the matter, her hardship, her new passion for manga and for her current life at Sakurasou. (well, if she can of course).

I believe every conflicts in the world can be solved with the correct communication. Heck, we even learn how to agree to disagree in this matter.

Even Anime characters should be allow to have opinions.

I'm not saying that he can't. I just don't think his last statement of the episode is his honest opinion (yet).

[wontaek]

Couple of point people keeps missing

1. Even in fine arts, you just can't leave for several years and then jump right back in where you left off. There is a great deal of technique that require constant practice to maintain. Without it, you can't draw what you want to draw. To think even someone like Mashiro can abandon painting for several years and just come back is just not understanding amount of work that goes into obtaining such a skill. Even Picasso had his training period and even very late in his life, he would sometimes practice in traditional way.

2. Most people think just doing what you want is the best way to happiness. Then why should anyone listen to their parents? You do have wonder how someone like Shiina Mashiro would feel when she is 30+ , and if she did not succeed in making a living as a mangaka. If she entirely abandoned painting for 10+ years, she will struggle to come back, and there won't be many people to support her to regain her footing as an artist. How do you think she will feel when she has to cope with possibility that she may never draw as she could when she was young, and she may never have enough time to draw all she wants? I have seen how wasted artistic talent is like when they are too old to accomplish what they want. The regret and remorse is intense. This is why I think, for sake for Mashiro's long term happiness, she must remain in touch with world of fine art and steadily produce art work while she is trying to become better mangaka.

3. Finally, for most artist, diversity and depth of experience is what fuels their long term success. The well within artist needs to be refilled with different experiences. If you check the history of artists and composers, you will find most of them benefiting from being at a center of cultural exchange where they could enjoy wide variety of cultural experiences. This is also why cultural diversity, in the long run, is a strong asset of any nation. All the characters in this series needs to realize that Mashiro's attempt at being a mangaka can help her become better artist, and also her improvement in fine art can help her manga. Realistically, for someone like Mashiro, people around her need to help her strike a delicate balance between being an artist and being a mangaka. Just choosing one and abandoning the other may be the worst thing Mashiro does.

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Couple of point people keeps missing

1. Even in fine arts, you just can't leave for several years and then jump right back in where you left off. There is a great deal of technique that require constant practice to maintain. Without it, you can't draw what you want to draw. To think even someone like Mashiro can abandon painting for several years and just come back is just not understanding amount of work that goes into obtaining such a skill. Even Picasso had his training period and even very late in his life, he would sometimes practice in traditional way.

2. Most people think just doing what you want is the best way to happiness. Then why should anyone listen to their parents? You do have wonder how someone like Shiina Mashiro would feel when she is 30+ , and if she did not succeed in making a living as a mangaka. If she entirely abandoned painting for 10+ years, she will struggle to come back, and there won't be many people to support her to regain her footing as an artist. How do you think she will feel when she has to cope with possibility that she may never draw as she could when she was young, and she may never have enough time to draw all she wants? I have seen how wasted artistic talent is like when they are too old to accomplish what they want. The regret and remorse is intense. This is why I think, for sake for Mashiro's long term happiness, she must remain in touch with world of fine art and steadily produce art work while she is trying to become better mangaka.

3. Finally, for most artist, diversity and depth of experience is what fuels their long term success. The well within artist needs to be refilled with different experiences. If you check the history of artists and composers, you will find most of them benefiting from being at a center of cultural exchange where they could enjoy wide variety of cultural experiences. This is also why cultural diversity, in the long run, is a strong asset of any nation. All the characters in this series needs to realize that Mashiro's attempt at being a mangaka can help her become better artist, and also her improvement in fine art can help her manga. Realistically, for someone like Mashiro, people around her need to help her strike a delicate balance between being an artist and being a mangaka. Just choosing one and abandoning the other may be the worst thing Mashiro does.

Reading this somehow raised another question in me, what if Mashiro despise fine art?

I mean she basically hasn't done anything else in her life except painting, right? Did she enjoy her previous lifestyle, or does she hate it? I don't know.

This is also why I think Mashiro talking to Rita is very important. Rita might had watched her painted dilligently everyday in the past and notice Mashiro's talent for Fine Art is tremendous, she might know that Mashiro loves painting and art in general. But does Rita know how Mashiro felt about her life, about her experience being made to draw non-stop as the most natural thing since she was born? Did Mahiro even like herself back in the day? If she hates it, then we will have a completely different matter to discuss about

So I don't think it's only just an issue that Mashiro wants to draw manga rather than Fine Arts and I'm very interested to find out about this

[Chaos2Frozen]

I don't think there was any doubt that Mashiro loves painting, even as she's working on her manga, she never passes up the opportunity to paint. I doubt anybody was actually forcing her because since when does she do anything she doesn't want or cares about?

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Zavie

Reading this somehow raised another question in me, what if Mashiro despise fine art?

I mean she basically hasn't done anything else in her life except painting, right? Did she enjoy her previous lifestyle, or does she hate it? I don't know.

This is also why I think Mashiro talking to Rita is very important. Rita might had watched her painted dilligently everyday in the past and notice Mashiro's talent for Fine Art is tremendous, she might know that Mashiro loves painting and art in general. But does Rita know how Mashiro felt about her life, about her experience being made to draw non-stop as the most natural thing since she was born? Did Mahiro even like herself back in the day? If she hates it, then we will have a completely different matter to discuss about

So I don't think it's only just an issue that Mashiro wants to draw manga rather than Fine Arts and I'm very interested to find out about this

I like to add that art is a weird thing where the consciousness and subconsciousness of the artist do show up in interesting ways. If Mashiro despised fine art, realistically speaking, those who have spent years in appreciating fine arts will feel it in her works. I spent good deal of time as music director, and you will be amazed how different the intensity of feeling of musical performance can be depending on amount of knowledge the performer has about the work and how they feel about the piece or the director in front of them. Also, If Mashiro despised fine arts from the start, there is no way she would have forced herself to train that much to acquire the needed techniques to draw what is in her mind. It is hard to make someone improve upon what that person hates. And again, there is immense amount of learning and training that is needed to bring the image in your mind to reality.

[NoemiChan]

I love the new hottie..

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I love the new hottie..

...Which one ?

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I don't think there was any doubt that Mashiro loves painting, even as she's working on her manga, she never passes up the opportunity to paint. I doubt anybody was actually forcing her because since when does she do anything she doesn't want or cares about?

I will just take this hypothetically, but what if Mashiro paints stuff (not manga) out of habit? It's something that she has been doing for years, and given a brush, maybe she just paints subconsciously?

I don't mean people would force her to paint in her early ages, it just that she was raised in an enviroment that painting is just a natural thing to do like eating and sleeping. Like when you're born in a musician family and surrounded by music, you somehow pick it up without caring too much about it, and in Shiina's case, she picked too much for her own good and became genius at it.

I'm not making any statement here, I'm just speaking hypothetically. And I really want to hear Shiina's take on this somewhere in the future, about her feeling of her past. For me, the anime only shown Mashiro as a very talented artist who loves painting and creating things, nothing on how she feels about her life as an artist or mangaka yet. (profession wise)

Originally Posted by wontaek

I like to add that art is a weird thing where the consciousness and subconsciousness of the artist do show up in interesting ways. If Mashiro despised fine art, realistically speaking, those who have spent years in appreciating fine arts will feel it in her works. I spent good deal of time as music director, and you will be amazed how different the intensity of feeling of musical performance can be depending on amount of knowledge the performer has about the work and how they feel about the piece or the director in front of them. Also, If Mashiro despised fine arts from the start, there is no way she would have forced herself to train that much to acquire the needed techniques to draw what is in her mind. It is hard to make someone improve upon what that person hates. And again, there is immense amount of learning

I think I phrased it wrongly in the last post, I mean I would like to know her feeling about her own life painting 24/7, not the painting part itself.

I remember Sorata's conversation with Mashiro asking about hwat Mashiro did in her life. The way Mashiro answered "I painted" 3 times had a somewhat melancholic and unpleasure tone in it to me.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Zavie

I will just take this hypothetically, but what if Mashiro paints stuff (not manga) out of habit? It's something that she has been doing for years, and given a brush, maybe she just paints subconsciously?

I don't mean people would force her to paint in her early ages, it just that she was raised in an eviroment that painting is just a natural thing to do like eating and sleeping. Like when you're born in a musician family and surrounded by music, you somehow pick it up without caring too much about it, and in Shiina's case, she picked too much for her own good and became genius at it.

I'm not making any statement here, I'm just speacking hypothetically. And I really want to hear Shiina's take on this somewhere in the future, about her feeling of her past. For me, the anime only shown Mashiro as a very talented artist who loves painting and creating things, nothing on how she feels about her life as an artist or mangaka yet. (profession wise)

Why don't you look around for banner, signature picture, or avatars that impress you and ask the creator if they made it out of habit? It is extremely rare for impressive work of art to not be product of great deal of planning, preparation, trials, and much error.

[molitar]

I get a kick out of the Shiina is being selfish.. selfish? She has lived for everyone else but herself all this time she has the right to be selfish after living for everybody else.

[maplehurry]

It is absurd simply because it's not their choice if the studio does it or not. It's simply not their business. They can ask/begg them if they want to do that or make a petition, but that is all.

it seems absurd to you, but not to a psychologist.

It's like a relationship between gf and bf.
Let's say the bf has been doing alot of things to please the gf and thus the gf loved her bf alot. But then one day the bf lost interest and decided to break up.
Sure they have the freedom to break up unilaterally, but it's sometimes not absurd if the gf or bf raged when they got ditched. From a logical pov, it's not really reasonable but the reality is that human is not machine.

This analogy applies more to studio that intentionally draws people's attention with their products, than Shiina who's ignorant.

[Zavie]

Originally Posted by wontaek

Why don't you look around for banner, signature picture, or avatars that impress you and ask the creator if they made it out of habit? It is extremely rare for impressive work of art to not be product of great deal of planning, preparation, trials, and much error.

Yes, I think that would be the normal case. But we are talking about genius level, right? And by genius, I would assume that the stuff they create would just naturally bacame something the world treasures. Take Mozart for example

And I would say the part where "planning, preparation, trials and errors" is could be part of that natural process as well. I also used to do creative work, and there has been lots of time when I just scrap a nearly finish product and start over when I'm not happy with it. I would assume the same things happened to Mashiro, but they are just the process itself when it comes to making art. So yes, I'm going to say that it can be part of the habit itself too.

[Master_Yoma]

Well that a site to wake up to 2 girls painting on your wall and Ryuunosuke just so cute

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by molitar

I get a kick out of the Shiina is being selfish.. selfish? She has lived for everyone else but herself all this time she has the right to be selfish after living for everybody else.

According to who ?

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Zavie

Yes, I think that would be the normal case. But we are talking about genius level, right? And by genius, I would assume that the stuff they create would just naturally bacame something the world treasures. Take Mozart for example

And I would say the part where "planning, preparation, trials and errors" is could be part of that natural process as well. I also used to do creative work, and there has been lots of time when I just scrap a nearly finish product and start over when I'm not happy with it. I would assume the same things happened to Mashiro, but they are just the process itself when it comes to making art. So yes, I'm going to say that it can be part of the habit itself too.

Yeah Mozart. Do you know how hard his father trained him? Have you studied how his music evolved and matured through what expert usually divides as 3 stages of his musical development? How much time he put into the exercise of improvisation? Also that the central component of music in that time was theme and development, which means lots of work. Sure Mozart did compose things out of habit, but the real memorable ones, those that made lasting marks are ones which you can trace its elements for years. Many of his later works are refined version of his earlier composition. Also if you have the time, listen to how his symphony evolves. Do pay special attention to his symphony number 8, 17, 25, 29, 35, 38, 40, and 41. You will be amazed at how his music progressively sound mature. Genius do have something in them that most other people don't have. It still takes years of practice for the genius to bring out what's in them for the world to observe.


"You know that I immerse myself in music, so to speak—that I think about it all day long—that I like experimenting—studying—reflecting."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart%...itional_method


Think also about this. It took Beethoven 4 years to make his 5th symphony, but you can find some traces of its elements in works 10 or more years before that was completed.

Great works of art almost never is something that happens spontaneously. Invariably there is a long history of development leading up to it.