The AnimeSuki Forum Reputation System has been retired

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I personally don't think it was the reputation system that was responsible for the good atmosphere on these forums.

I don't think that the reputation system was the sole reason for the good atmosphere on these forums, but I definitely think it was a factor.

Just compare Anime Suki to ANN's forums or MAL's forums. I've seen more flaming on those sites than I've seen here, and that's in spite of the fact that I've spent much more time here on AS than on ANN's forums or MAL's forums. And it's not like ANN's forums are bereft of "plenty of older members" and some good moderators (I can't speak to MAL as much). And ANN's forums and MAL's are populated by international anime fans, just like AS is.

AS' moderating staff probably is superior to ANN's, but I don't think that alone can account for the difference here.


There are times during a heated discussion that people are tempted to cross the line a bit. I've been there myself. There's at least a couple times that I probably did cross the line. And whenever I did, I'd receive a negrep for it. A lot of the negreps I've received were cowardly, silly, and petty in my view, but at least a couple were fair admonishments for having crossed the line. Negreps could help ensure that people really tried to avoid getting too heated in a heated discussion.

If, however, the trolls do pop out of their caves due to the absence of a reputation system then I'm sure it'll help out in identifying them and proceed to "invite them to leave".

It's really not that simple, imo. The substantial civility of Anime Suki isn't just a reflection of a general lack of trolls. It's also, I think, that Anime Suki's full membership does a generally good job of practicing self-restraint when posting in heated discussions that have the potential to turn into flamewars, and that this emphasis on self-restraint was reinforced by the reputation system.

Anime Suki has actually had pretty civil and interesting discussions on "hot button" topics like fanservice, and "sexism in anime". I've seen such discussions turn into nasty shouting matches on other anime sites, but here people handled them with maturity and civility.

Originally Posted by totoum

I honestly would be quite disappointed if the rep system was a major factor in keeping the forum civil since I would hope people would naturally be civil to each other, the rules say "Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated."

I think you're overestimating the degree to which people read the rules, and take them seriously, before posting on an internet forum. I recall the major headaches of this past Summer, immediately after the Sword Art Online subforum launched. These headaches were related to Anime Suki's spoiler policy, and how it was just being totally ignored on the SAO subforum, and various other places on AS. It was a nightmare, which I'm sure relentlessflame himself remembers well. And it sadly proves that lots of people just don't bother reading the rules, or even if they do, they don't always take them seriously.

Something dynamic, active, and ever-present, like AS' reputation system, has a much greater impact on poster behavior than a long list of rules stickied somewhere, imo.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This, pretty much. Let me give you some rep for such a good post. Oh, wait...

I think in the end, the rep system made Animesuki more civil, not less. It was incentive to make good posts, and deterrent to troll. I hate to see the fact that there are a few bad apples in the barrel ruin it for everybody, but that's how these things always seem to work.

I think the salient point is, this is really the only anime forum I frequent, because it's considerably more civil than the others. And it was the only one with a rep system.

I completely agree. And for people wondering why I care so much about the possible effects of retiring the reputation system, this is the reason why.

After spending some time on various other anime message boards, I can't imagine ever leaving Anime Suki for one of them. And poster civility is a major reason why.

And so if Anime Suki ever loses that edge, then I don't really see a good alternative to turn to. For that reason, I really hope that Anime Suki remains at least as good an internet forum as its almost always been.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think that the reputation system was the sole reason for the good atmosphere on these forums, but I definitely think it was a factor.

Just compare Anime Suki to ANN's forums or MAL's forums. I've seen more flaming on those sites than I've seen here, and that's in spite of the fact that I've spent much more time here on AS than on ANN's forums or MAL's forums. And it's not like ANN's forums are bereft of "plenty of older members" and some good moderators (I can't speak to MAL as much). And ANN's forums and MAL's are populated by international anime fans, just like AS is.

AS' moderating staff probably is superior to ANN's, but I don't think that alone can account for the difference here.


There are times during a heated discussion that people are tempted to cross the line a bit. I've been there myself. There's at least a couple times that I probably did cross the line. And whenever I did, I'd receive a negrep for it. A lot of the negreps I've received were cowardly, silly, and petty in my view, but at least a couple were fair admonishments for having crossed the line. Negreps could help ensure that people really tried to avoid getting too heated in a heated discussion.




It's really not that simple, imo. The substantial civility of Anime Suki isn't just a reflection of a general lack of trolls. It's also, I think, that Anime Suki's full membership does a generally good job of practicing self-restraint when posting in heated discussions that have the potential to turn into flamewars, and that this emphasis on self-restraint was reinforced by the reputation system.

Anime Suki has actually had pretty civil and interesting discussions on "hot button" topics like fanservice, and "sexism in anime". I've seen such discussions turn into nasty shouting matches on other anime sites, but here people handled them with maturity and civility.

I respect your opinion and can understand your point of view but disagree with it. I do not believe that the Reputation System was that strong of a reason to keep these forums civil and instead point to the "elder" members of the community and the moderators that have made a pretty good job at educating newcomers to the more civil tone of these forums compared to other places of the web. I also believe that, by keeping things civil, the forum tended to attract those who were running away from other, less civil places of discussion on the web. It's the "broken windows" theory applied to a forum: if you break even a single window then people will slowly stop caring when other windows are broken and eventually you get a rundown building instead of a nice clean one.

I tend to agree more with Cosmic Eagle on this one: I find that in some more heated discussions on these forums the negreps have made some people hold back and stop voicing their dissenting opinions or down right stop participating simply because if they do they get showered with negreps. The reputation system was hiding in the shadows a few unwanted members of the community that now, without the cover of "anonymity", will more likely be exposed and dealt with appropriately.

There's a reason the decision was made to kill the rep system and I have to admit to have seen such outcasting happen myself on one or two occasions.

Then there's the "posrep" cliques that I had no idea even existed. Did people seriously pay that much attention to the rep system?

But overall I have to agree with you on one thing: I've been coming more and more to these forums for threads like the News or the Dating threads that tend to contain much more serious discussion than I ever thought possible on a public forum. Hope for humanity: restored! Thanks animesuki.

[Kirarakim]

I thought the positive rep thing was nice but hated the concept of negative rep. I was told it was both or none so I think in that sense it is better to get rid of the rep system entirely.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I respect your opinion and can understand your point of view but disagree with it. I do not believe that the Reputation System was that strong of a reason to keep these forums civil and instead point to the "elder" members of the community and the moderators that have made a pretty good job at educating newcomers to the more civil tone of these forums compared to other places of the web.

Do you know how the elder members of the community influenced me the most when I was still pretty new to Anime Suki? Through posreps.

Posreps helped ensure that I didn't hold back and stop voicing dissenting opinions. The reputation system allowed people to encourage others without having to actively get involved in the debate themselves.

There's a reason the decision was made to kill the rep system...

Yes, to run an experiment. And it's very important to keep an open-mind when running an experiment.

So are you willing to admit that you might be wrong about the reputation system and the degree of impact it had on Anime Suki? I'll admit that I might be wrong about it, which is precisely why I think this is a good experiment.

Then there's the "posrep" cliques that I had no idea even existed. Did people seriously pay that much attention to the rep system?

People keep bringing up these posrep cliques. But how are they harmful in any real, concrete way?

It's only natural for forums like Anime Suki to have various circles of friends within them. That's just people being human.

[RRW]

i guess one of the problem is that everytime you get positive rep. the comment ussually

"OMG! you so awesome! love you so much - User id 1"

while for negative rep comment

"lol, you suck"

one way to make fix it is that to show who give the rep. obviously there has to be some counter measurement that prevent user to rep back the recent rep-er

or remove the comment system

my 2 cent anyway

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, to run an experiment. And it's very important to keep an open-mind when running an experiment.

So are you willing to admit that you might be wrong about the reputation system and the degree of impact it had on Anime Suki? I'll admit that I might be wrong about it, which is precisely why I think this is a good experiment.

Of course. I don't believe it now but if anyone can show me proof of it then I'll gladly change my opinion.

I'll even agree that I enjoyed quite a bit being able to give (and receive) posrep when someone made a good post without having to jump into the thread or leave a VM. Mostly because VMs aren't linked to a particular post and you have one extra click to get to them. On the other hand I think that it wasn't healthy to allow anonymous rep simply because it lead to a few cases of unpleasant comments due to simple dissenting views.

[Reverzer0]

my observation: reputation here is not rare compare to a gold and diamond! meaning, easy to find and earn. and imagine that when i register here 1 year and 3 months ago with many absents, wow~ i got 10 automated reputation points=1 green cell without doing anything. so and therefore, no negative impact for removing the system.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Actually, what is the experiment supposed to measure? How do we define its success or failure? I find it quite refreshing now that the system is gone. How do we quantify that impression objectively?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think you're overestimating the degree to which people read the rules, and take them seriously, before posting on an internet forum (...)
Something dynamic, active, and ever-present, like AS' reputation system, has a much greater impact on poster behavior than a long list of rules stickied somewhere, imo..

The "report post" button is what should "make it dynamic, active, and ever-present" , if someone is crossing the line,instead of neg repping the person, report it.I'm pretty sure a mod warning will be as effective if not more so than a anonymous message.

If you don't feel the post is worth reporting even if it irritates you I'd second guess if it's really crossing the line.

My conviction that there's no need for a rep system to keep the forum civil is that I've been on forums just as civil (if not more so) than animesuki and they don't have a rep system,if those don't need it then I don't see why animesuki would.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Actually, what is the experiment supposed to measure? How do we define its success or failure?

That's up to the Moderators to decide, of course.

However, these are the questions that I personally think are of consequence: Does overall forum activity rise, or fall, or stay the same? Does flaming become more common, less common, or remain the same? Do we see a wider variety of opinions expressed, or a lower variety of opinions expressed? Do we get fewer "standout" posts due to lack of pos rep motivating people, or do we get more "standout" posts due to the lack of neg rep discouraging people?


There's of course a fair bit of subjectivity to this, but I think that any significant change will be noticeable to most active members. For example, if over the next few months we see a rise in threads with loads of great discussion then the current theory of "Neg rep held some people back" would gain more credibility. On the other hand, if over the next few months we see a rise in the number of flaming posts, a noticeable increase in flamewars, and/or more infractions having to be passed out, then the current theory of "Neg rep served to reinforce civil discussion" would gain more credibility.

If little change occurs over the next few months, then we can probably determine that the reputation system's impact was negligible (neither particularly positive or negative) and hence it becomes a simple matter of member's personal preference for or against it.

Originally Posted by totoum

The "report post" button is what should "make it dynamic, active, and ever-present" ,

But it didn't. I've read the Moderators frequently point out that rule-breaking posts weren't reported enough.

Look, it's sometimes good to incentivize positive behavior. Telling people "Here's the rules, follow them, and report on people that break them" doesn't offer any incentive at all, other than a slightly healthier conscience perhaps. But that alone has its limits.

My conviction that there's no need for a rep system to keep the forum civil is that I've been on forums just as civil (if not more so) than animesuki and they don't have a rep system,if those don't need it then I don't see why animesuki would.

And the experience of Guardian Enzo and myself is completely contrary to that.

I've been on dozens of internet forums over a decade plus of regular internet activity, and Anime Suki is the most civil forum I've ever been on over that entire stretch. And it's the only one of all of them that had a reputation system.

[Reckoner]

The civility on the forum is a direct result of a strict moderation practice. The least civil areas on the site are the places the mods are active the least. Reputation system only served to sterilize the forums. The reputation system only protected the majority, politically correct opinions.

Also while I love AS for a lot of its community it is also true that many of them are overly sensitive and touchy. Removal of reputation will hopefully encourage people to engage in more lively discussions instead of the overly sterile ones
Pervasive in many parts of the forum.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The civility on the forum is a direct result of a strict moderation practice. The least civil areas on the site are the places the mods are active the least. Reputation system only served to sterilize the forums. The reputation system only protected the majority, politically correct opinions.

Back when Haruhi's E8 was airing, I felt genuine anger and disappointment over what KyoAni had chosen to do here. But when I expressed that, the pushback from fellow Haruhi fans was at times heavy. It could be discouraging.

Then a couple forum elders that I didn't know that well, but am now glad to call friends, posrepped me for my posts criticizing Haruhi's E8. That proved to be valuable encouragement to me in continuing on with my politically incorrect criticisms of the great KyoAni and their "brilliantly artistic!" E8.


One of the nice surprises I saw with the reputation system was that posts that I honestly expected to eat up a negrep or two for actually at times resulted in a posrep or two. I think that some people here like controversial opinions, but not all of them want to take the time to publicly go against the crowd.

[Reckoner]

Not the greatest example since the majority opinion on e8 was negative. Look at the polls for some of the middle episodes.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by NoirX

Actually, spamming positive rep with one alt-account is possible. A newly created acc can give around 15 rep points(tested it myself just for this occassion sometime ago). So basically just give your main acc a positive rep of 15 points, give good/bad rep to other random people and the you can re-rep your main acc with 15 points and repeat the cycle. Thats how some people abuse their high rep(not saying who of course).

By the way, I want to say again, this is not true. A new forum account gave zero points, and it would take a considerable amount of time before anyone could give 15 points.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The civility on the forum is a direct result of a strict moderation practice. The least civil areas on the site are the places the mods are active the least. Reputation system only served to sterilize the forums. The reputation system only protected the majority, politically correct opinions.

Also while I love AS for a lot of its community it is also true that many of them are overly sensitive and touchy. Removal of reputation will hopefully encourage people to engage in more lively discussions instead of the overly sterile ones
Pervasive in many parts of the forum.

Meh. Even without a rep system, being the minority will be a pressure all on its own. People who don't care about it aren't likely to care about reputation either.

After reading everyone's arguments, I'm starting to think it pretty much had a null net effect. But I guess we'll see.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Look at Gundam age as an example of people not posting what they think.... Quite a few posters stopped posting negative opinions of the show because a combination of constant neg reps and/or dropping the show because it sucked.

I really don't think negrep had much to do with it. It just wasn't a show worth discussing, even for those who finished it.

[hyl]

I agree that if a show doesn't seem to get negative replies, that doesn't mean that the people posting those were deterred from it because other people were giving out negative reputation to them.
Like a recent example, Little busters: people are still complaining about it every week but the ammount of complaints has dramatically decreased. The reason for this might be that either the people gave up on the serie or complaining about the same thing every week has become tedious.

[Klashikari]

This issue is actually affecting debates and the likes. You can actually notice a dwindling tendency in "opposing" arguments when "heavy hitter" rep members join the fray.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This issue is actually affecting debates and the likes. You can actually notice a dwindling tendency in "opposing" arguments when "heavy hitter" rep members join the fray.

I honestly think this argument is getting overplayed.

I faced just as much counterargument for posts where I said something critical about Fate/Zero, Nisemonogatari, or Sword Art Online as I did for posts where I said something critical about Haruhi 2009 or Ore no Imouto. If high rep was that influential, then I should have seen a substantial difference here since my rep had increased significantly from where it was at during Haruhi 2009 or Ore no Imouto's initial airing.


Also, is it not possible that sometimes "heavy hitter" rep members simply make good arguments that the other side found persuasive?

[Klashikari]

You are taking the argument backwards: I do not say people reputation are dropping fast when they are opposed to high rep members.
However, the presence of high rep people in a given thread actually leads to a deterrent effect regarding certain debates.
Your own experience really has little relevancy in that part.

[hyl]

Was there some kind of indication/clue that people with low reputation were "silenced" because of the fear of a negative rep after people with high reputation were meddling with that discussion?
I agree with Triple R that sometimes these members presented good arguments to "silence" the people with lower repuation instead.