Ore no Imouto - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Then she wouldn't be Kirino.

Spoiler for Comparison to Fate/stay night:

In the anime Fate/Stay Night, the character of Rin Tohsaka starts out largely tsun, but is almost entirely dere by the end of the anime (that was my take on her anyway).

However, I did not feel like this character development for Rin Tohsaka meant that she was not Rin Tohsaka any more. Key elements of her character remained constant throughout the change, and those elements help to define her and give her character consistency.

Likewise, there are many key elements to Kirino's character (her otaku interests, her drive for personal success, her pride in herself) that would remain even if she became more dere. Look, Haruhi Suzumiya didn't cease to be Haruhi Suzumiya just because she flashed a few genuinely sweet smiles at Kyon once in awhile. I'm really not hoping for a lot here; just some small outward sign of appreciation and kindness towards Kyousuke. If Kirino just did as much as even Haruhi did, I'd be fine with it.

Again, it would take away from who Kirino is.

For you, maybe. Not for me.

Like I said, I certainly understand why people dislike her despite the fact that I like Kirino.

Then by that same token, would it be fair to ask those that don't like Kirino to understand those who do like her?

Based on Relentlessflame's explanation to me, yes, I understand.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Exactly, I agree completely. Kirino is not going to change, her personality is too strong for that. Even if Kyosuke figures out the reason behind their distance for the past couple years, her action still won't change.

A person can have a strong personality and still change.

But, in any event, are you saying that you don't think that Kirino will ever show a dere side to Kyousuke?

What this episode was doing well for me was that we were shown Kirino's dere side (as viewers) which made her tusn-side more understandable in front of Kyosuke.

Honestly, I don't care if she has a dere side if nobody ever gets to see it.

I mean, what's the point in a person having a softer side if he or she never shows that to anybody else?

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, that person might as well not have a softer side.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, a) I don't think you're ever going to find tsundere characters appealing by analysing the appeal from an abstract third-party point of view.

Actually, I have.

I can definitely see the appeal (even from a third-party perspective) to someone who hides their emotions behind a somewhat cold or harsh exterior, and who gradually lets them out over time after learning to let their guard down.

But that doesn't describe Kirino.

Maybe 0utf0xZer0 is right, and she's not even a tsundere.

But anyway, b) the key thing about tsundere characters is that both their tsuntsun and deredere personalities are actually signs of love.

Ok, this is where basic suspension of disbelief comes into play for me.

I can see a person being like this for awhile.

Even in real life, there's a saying of "If a girl teases you a lot, it's because she likes you". Yes, there's something to be said for reverse psychology, and people trying to mask their true feelings for someone in order to avoid vulnerability.

But there comes a point where, if you truly like or love someone, you're going to stop being mean to them all the time.

That's my opinion, anyway.

I guess that people more into tsunderes than I are simply able to suspend disbelief more than I can.

This is a sort of unspoken rule of (most) eroge because you know that, if the heroine has a route, she's going to fall in love with the protagonist. Seeing the protagonist eventually win over the heroine to reveal the deredere side is part of the appeal (and the contrast makes the change that much sweeter), but just knowing that the whole tsuntsun "front" is a lie has a way of making the whole thing endearing. So the appeal isn't only in the "change", but also in the lead-up before the change occurs knowing that it's going to happen eventually. You perceive every action differently with that guidance in mind.

So, if you really want to "get it", every time you see Kirino acting rude towards Kyousuke, just remind yourself: she's only acting this way because she's easily embarrassed and can't be honest about her true feelings, and the truth is she loves him. You don't have to have absolutely undeniable proof of this (guaranteed it'll happen at least to some degree); that's simply the "understanding" any eroge player would have about her character. It's as close as we get to eroge law. With that understanding, you may begin to see the appeal in Kirino's character.

Yes, I can kind of see the appeal, and I "get it" from what you're saying.

I just can't suspend disbelief enough to hold that appeal for Kirino as well.

But for people who can, yes, I can kind of see the appeal based on what you wrote.

[-Sho-]

Well , eroge part aside , our prediction about Saori who is probably a beauty behind her glasses was true. Otak princess !

Anyway , Kuroneko's slice of life was very nice. I tell ya , she stole the show :O

(Kinda feel that incest is inceasing every ep...)

[Guardian Enzo]

Saori was gorgeous in my eyes already...

Wow - that was really something. Without any nudity or even suggestive language, that was about as naughty as any anime I've seen in a long time. The squealing, the busy shower, the lovemaking with the pillow - what a performance! It's no wonder Kyousuke was going a little nuts listening to it.

For every step Kirino takes towards being irredeemably a bitch, Kuroneko becomes that much more adorable. It was nice to see her in slice-of-life mode - and even nicer that Kyou chose to call her when he couldn't take the hentai any more. "Just to see what she'd been doing" - major relationship flag there. Now I just wonder if Kyou is invited to the cosplay party, too.

While I still have the same fundamental problem with this show that I've had from the beginning - Kirino is a totally unsympathetic character - at least this week the writing staff showed they're on top of that, with the vicious self-mockery of Kirino's eroge ("She's 100% tsun, 0% dere!"). Kirino got a taste of her own medicine, but will it actually change her behavior? There were clear signs she thought the hints hit too close to home, but her only reaction was to act out even more and be a bigger bitch to Kyousuke. In a sense I almost admire the fact that the writers are staying the course here - they know she's awful and they're pot-committed. But where does that lead to in terms of an ending?

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Well, you obviously relate to it.

If you act like that around me though, I'm slapping upside your head.

Twice.

That's why I don't play them in front of people....

and I'm hope you don't watch your regular porn in front of others either.....

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

I've never played an eroge before, I'm too impatient with my pornography to bother with it, and I dislike the need for 'branches' / 'routes' and all that.

Still disturbing.

Why? branching/routes are just ways to make players feels more immerse in the storyline all videogames and multi-ending RPG have those too. It goes way back to the D&D style of play.

you might find eroge disturbing, I find that pretty natural and hell lot better than try to suppress yourself and ends up being a criminal.

Again, to each their own....


Besides, once you get keeply involve with ACG, it's almost impossible not to notice the dark side of that world that's supporting it. Too many animator started out as eroge designers dojinshi artist, too many mangaka at one time or another drew adult dojinshi, too many renown artists does side works for eroge, and some of the best LN/manga writer starts out or still heavily involve in eroge.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A person can have a strong personality and still change.

But, in any event, are you saying that you don't think that Kirino will ever show a dere side to Kyousuke?

Yes, I personally don't think she'll ever change, if she does, it'll be at the very end of the series when a bulb lites up inside her head. I believe the whole series is about Kyosuke slowing realizing that everything Kirino says or does is opposite from her actual intent and he comes to accept that fact. While during that discovery, he'll figure out why they grew apart in the first place.

Again, this is me with knowledge of LN saying this. However, I can certainly understand anime-only viewer might get frustrated since they are missing a lot of Kyosuke's inner thoughts and dialog and at same time the anime is not doing that clear a job focusing on those parts. But on the other hand, I thought this series is very well done with the exception of last episode and half and it should be clear that the focus of the series is on how Kyosuke's getting more involve with Kirino life, instead of how Kirino's life changes because of Kyosuke's involvement.

Afterall, Kirino's life had already changed once because of Kyosuke...

[Tenchi Ryu]

Well, I'm one of the people who are seriously upset with Kirino's ways right now. I understand there might be past issues, but Kyou has done more than enough to make up for it IMHO. He's put his name on the line for her countless times, and gets no respect. He gets ONE thank you, then gets slapped and kicked the next day. I'm not asking for her to be all "make love to me onii-san"..but at least enough to respect the notion of someone doing something for you. This is one of the first animes where I just about HATE the main character and Love the series at the same time. Even the Creator of the series stated countless times that they HATED Kirino, which I find very interesting making me wonder where the series is heading. BUT, like others, I'm trying to be patient, to feel that pleasure of being granted that DERE that I've waited 3/4 of the series for. There is so much one can take before they move on to something and/or someone better, and with what I've heard from others about whats currently happening in the novels, Kirino's time is SEVERELY running out

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

That's why I don't play them in front of people....

That's why I said it was disturbing that she was doing it with her brother in the next room and all that.

Why? branching/routes are just ways to make players feels more immerse in the storyline all videogames and multi-ending RPG have those too. It goes way back to the D&D style of play.

Like I said, I've grown impatient.

I generally tend to gravitate towards one character with games, but eroge tend to force you to go through one path before you go to another, or something of that sort. An example: My friend let me borrow Tsukihime because I play Melty Blood competitively. So I was sure, why not? I play Hisui, so naturally I want to learn about Hisui. I can't do that. I have to play through Arcuied's route first. I don't want to do that, I want to learn more about Hisui. Making you sift through paths like that is something I can't sit down and trudge through to get what I want, especially given how long games like this take.

The same thing happened with Fate. I don't care for Saber or Rin, and was really curious about what happens to Sakura. Nope, have to go through Saber and Rin before I can. Not happening.

Again, not a fault of the game, and I'm not dismissing anyone who enjoys it. Just can't do it myself.

you might find eroge disturbing, I find that pretty natural and hell lot better than try to suppress yourself and ends up being a criminal.

1. I don't find eroge disturbing. I find enjoying it loudly and publicly disturbing, especially in the manner which Kirino did.

2. If you have to surpress yourself, or use these games to do so you are in serious need of help / therapy.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe 0utf0xZer0 is right, and she's not even a tsundere.

That's what I'm banking on myself. I don't think Kirino's a tsundere; I think she's just a bitter, resentful girl that's still hung up over whatever happened in their past. That line in episode 5 along the lines of "Why are you pretending to be a good big brother now?" sums everything up, I think. We don't know what happened yet that spoiled their relationship - maybe it was something dramatic like a fight, maybe it was something else - but I wouldn't be surprised if Kirino finds it difficult to move on from whatever happened. It's been pretty firmly established by this point that she's hyperemotional to the nth degree. Molesting that dakimakura pillow and rolling around the floor with it, falling sick over having her work stolen (I'm ignoring the stupid anime version of that storyline here)... if Kirino gets that worked up over a fucking eroge, who knows how deeply a familial conflict (Regardless of whether it was a cold war or otherwise) of potentially several years might have effected her? Kyosuke says in episode 8 that he 'hates' Kirino, so maybe he expressed that hate at some point, maybe he said or did some hateful, nasty things (Or at least acted coldly or passive-aggressively at certain points, which might be more in-character than outright belligerence... though who knows, Kyosuke showed this episode that he can lash out whenever frustrated, and over a pretty trivial issue in Kirino being too loud and horny at that) in years past that continue to dig at her (And which might make the shit he's put himself through for her sake resonate less sincerely; 'Yeah, you've done some nice things for me, but that doesn't take away or explain what happened back then'). Maybe Kirino doesn't want their relationship to get too warm or friendly because she's afraid that if she does, she'll lose her chance or her right to vent her misgrievings, that their former conflicts might get swept under the rug and never addressed. This is all idle speculation, not asking you to buy any of it, but I trust that this is all going somewhere and that Kirino's glacially slow shift from tsun to dere is all very calculated and methodical and doesn't indicate bad writing, because...

a) Kirino is, on the whole, a very friendly person. She's nothing but bright and cheerful to anyone whose name isn't Kyosuke or Kuroneko (And Kuroneko's the one who cast the first stone, if I remember correctly, though I'm glad she did since the snarkfest their friendship developed into rules). I think she would need some kind of heavy catalyst to treat Kyosuke with such animosity when it goes against her usual character. That might not change your opinion about whether or not the way she treats him is completely unjustified, of course, but at the least I think she's fueled mostly by hurt rather than just being a total bitch by default.

b) Ore no Imotou is just a well-written enough series that I have faith in it, and one characterization-related theme I think it does well is demonstrating how people show different sides of themselves depending on their company and how said company makes them feel about themselves. Kyosuke acts different around Manami's family than he does his own, Kuroneko treats her little sister much differently than she does most other people, Saori seems less quirky and goofy around her maids (The one with long brown hair is pretty fucking hot, by the way)... I think Kirino's different treatment of Kyosuke is just a very delibrate part of that theme, with the 'Why' to be answered later. I don't know, for the most part the writing just seems too competent to not expect good things.

Anyway, that's just my take on everything. Might be completely wrong. I'm not really sure how Kirino would act were she romantically interested in someone that she had less or no emotional baggage with, though. There's always the chance that she might be the anti-tsundere, that the hyperearnest attitude she showed when making all those demands for her anime (And which she possesses in general) might translate into romance. "We're already on our third date, why haven't you proposed to me yet?"

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

That's why I said it was disturbing that she was doing it with her brother in the next room and all that.



Like I said, I've grown impatient.

I generally tend to gravitate towards one character with games, but eroge tend to force you to go through one path before you go to another, or something of that sort. An example: My friend let me borrow Tsukihime because I play Melty Blood competitively. So I was sure, why not? I play Hisui, so naturally I want to learn about Hisui. I can't do that. I have to play through Arcuied's route first. I don't want to do that, I want to learn more about Hisui. Making you sift through paths like that is something I can't sit down and trudge through to get what I want, especially given how long games like this take.

The same thing happened with Fate. I don't care for Saber or Rin, and was really curious about what happens to Sakura. Nope, have to go through Saber and Rin before I can. Not happening.

Again, not a fault of the game, and I'm not dismissing anyone who enjoys it. Just can't do it myself.



1. I don't find eroge disturbing. I find enjoying it loudly and publicly disturbing, especially in the manner which Kirino did.

2. If you have to surpress yourself, or use these games to do so you are in serious need of help / therapy.

In that case, I can relate. I hate when they does that as well. That why I still think Dokyusei series is pinnacle for pure-love type eroge and both origiinal Tokimeki Memorial and Sentimental Graffiti are still the best bishojo games ever.

And yeah, I agree Kirino is going a bit overboard, but the important part I believe is that the parents are not home, who gives a heck about siblings?

As for suppress ones self, I'm not talking about the urge to do those things in game, I mean, I can't summon a hot swordsman as servent even if I wanted to nor have a hot classmate suddenly decides to move in with you.

I talking about stresses and pressures built up in you everyday life. To me, eroge is exactly the same as games like Call of Duty or Mario Kart. They are things that lets you escape to your fantasies and relief yourself.... (which ever way you would like)

Though just to make clear, I still have more respect for people who uses games to relief their criminal urges than fucked-up people who uses games (of any type) as excuse for their crimes. I'm sorry, if you can't tell what is real and what's not, you are messed up to begin with....

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

I generally tend to gravitate towards one character with games, but eroge tend to force you to go through one path before you go to another, or something of that sort.

For whatever it's worth, most games don't have these sorts of requirements. Most just let you pick whatever path you want on the first playthrough. But I suppose it depends on the exact genre you're interested in.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I think she's just a bitter, resentful girl that's still hung up over whatever happened in their past. That line in episode 5 along the lines of "Why are you pretending to be a good big brother now?" sums everything up, I think.

Note that Rinko said the same thing to the protagonist in the game. I strongly suspect the insinuation in both cases is more like "you weren't there for me in the past, and now all of a sudden you're playing this role and you expect me to just accept it -- don't count on it". No matter how uncomfortable you might find their relationship to be now, it's more of a relationship than they had before the show started*. It's only because his behaviour seemed out-of-character that she's been suspicious of his motivation. I suppose you might say that, as with Rinko to the protagonist in the game, Kirino's been putting Kyousuke through a big test -- or rather, waiting to see if he'd fail. So far, he hasn't failed.

* It occurs to me after I wrote this that some might argue that having no relationship with Kirino at all would be better than the sort of "abuse" she puts him through. If that's the way you look at it, then I'll at least suggest that doesn't seem to be the way Kyousuke looks at it.

[Undertaker]

Spoiler for Long Quotes:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

That's what I'm banking on myself. I don't think Kirino's a tsundere; I think she's just a bitter, resentful girl that's still hung up over whatever happened in their past. That line in episode 5 along the lines of "Why are you pretending to be a good big brother now?" sums everything up, I think. We don't know what happened yet that spoiled their relationship - maybe it was something dramatic like a fight, maybe it was something else - but I wouldn't be surprised if Kirino finds it difficult to move on from whatever happened. It's been pretty firmly established by this point that she's hyperemotional to the nth degree. Molesting that dakimakura pillow and rolling around the floor with it, falling sick over having her work stolen (I'm ignoring the stupid anime version of that storyline here)... if Kirino gets that worked up over a fucking eroge, who knows how deeply a familial conflict (Regardless of whether it was a cold war or otherwise) of potentially several years might have effected her? Kyosuke says in episode 8 that he 'hates' Kirino, so maybe he expressed that hate at some point, maybe he said or did some hateful, nasty things (Or at least acted coldly or passive-aggressively at certain points, which might be more in-character than outright belligerence... though who knows, Kyosuke showed this episode that he can lash out whenever frustrated, and over a pretty trivial issue in Kirino being too loud and horny at that) in years past that continue to dig at her (And which might make the shit he's put himself through for her sake resonate less sincerely; 'Yeah, you've done some nice things for me, but that doesn't take away or explain what happened back then'). Maybe Kirino doesn't want their relationship to get too warm or friendly because she's afraid that if she does, she'll lose her chance or her right to vent her misgrievings, that their former conflicts might get swept under the rug and never addressed. This is all idle speculation, not asking you to buy any of it, but I trust that this is all going somewhere and that Kirino's glacially slow shift from tsun to dere is all very calculated and methodical and doesn't indicate bad writing, because...

a) Kirino is, on the whole, a very friendly person. She's nothing but bright and cheerful to anyone whose name isn't Kyosuke or Kuroneko (And Kuroneko's the one who cast the first stone, if I remember correctly, though I'm glad she did since the snarkfest their friendship developed into rules). I think she would need some kind of heavy catalyst to treat Kyosuke with such animosity when it goes against her usual character. That might not change your opinion about whether or not the way she treats him is completely unjustified, of course, but at the least I think she's fueled mostly by hurt rather than just being a total bitch by default.

b) Ore no Imotou is just a well-written enough series that I have faith in it, and one characterization-related theme I think it does well is demonstrating how people show different sides of themselves depending on their company and how said company makes them feel about themselves. Kyosuke acts different around Manami's family than he does his own, Kuroneko treats her little sister much differently than she does most other people, Saori seems less quirky and goofy around her maids (The one with long brown hair is pretty fucking hot, by the way)... I think Kirino's different treatment of Kyosuke is just a very delibrate part of that theme, with the 'Why' to be answered later. I don't know, for the most part the writing just seems too competent to not expect good things.

Anyway, that's just my take on everything. Might be completely wrong. I'm not really sure how Kirino would act were she romantically interested in someone that she had less or no emotional baggage with, though. There's always the chance that she might be the anti-tsundere, that the hyperearnest attitude she showed when making all those demands for her anime (And which she possesses in general) might translate into romance. "We're already on our third date, why haven't you proposed to me yet?"

Nice post, I wish it was there when I reply my last one.

But yes, everyone in this series so far has at least 2 sides, and that's not to they they are bad or pretentious. You acts according to who is your companies, its until you get comfortable with them and you know that you won't lose them then you shows them that hidden side. There's a reason why Kuroneko is Kuroneko, why Saori dresses as stereotypical otaku, why Ayase is acting perfect in front of Kirino, and why Kirino is acting like that in front of Kyosuke.

With that being side, I highly recommend everyone to read the original light novel, even if they are fan-translated. There is a reason why this series got popular in such short period of time and have gotten positive reviews in the ACG world.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

For whatever it's worth, most games don't have these sorts of requirements. Most just let you pick whatever path you want on the first playthrough. But I suppose it depends on the exact genre you're interested in.

Note that Rinko said the same thing to the protagonist in the game. I strongly suspect the insinuation in both cases is more like "you weren't there for me in the past, and now all of a sudden you're playing this role and you expect me to just accept it -- don't count on it". No matter how uncomfortable you might find their relationship to be now, it's more of a relationship than they had before the show started*. It's only because his behaviour seemed out-of-character that she's been suspicious of his motivation. I suppose you might say that, as with Rinko to the protagonist in the game, Kirino's been putting Kyousuke through a big test -- or rather, waiting to see if he'd fail. So far, he hasn't failed.

* It occurs to me after I wrote this that some might argue that having no relationship with Kirino at all would be better than the sort of "abuse" she puts him through. If that's the way you look at it, then I'll at least suggest that doesn't seem to be the way Kyousuke looks at it.

Agree, any relationship (amongst family) is still better than no relationship, goes back to the traditional East Asian family values, and yes I'm blaming YOU, CONFUCIOUS!!!

[DasDingus]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

a) Kirino is, on the whole, a very friendly person. She's nothing but bright and cheerful to anyone whose name isn't Kyosuke or Kuroneko (And Kuroneko's the one who cast the first stone, if I remember correctly, though I'm glad she did since the snarkfest their friendship developed into rules). I think she would need some kind of heavy catalyst to treat Kyosuke with such animosity when it goes against her usual character. That might not change your opinion about whether or not the way she treats him is completely unjustified, of course, but at the least I think she's fueled mostly by hurt rather than just being a total bitch by default.

I'd argue against her sweet side being the default. The way I see it is she's only sweet to people whom she either wants something from or can't get away with being mean to. She ranges from indifferent to cold towards Saori and she's openly hostile towards Kuroneko and Kyouske. Who else do we really see her interact with? Her parents? Teachers? The only times we ever see her act sweet is when she's dealing with somebody in a position of power or she wants something. I'm inclined to believe her sweet act is just that, an act.

Now, that isn't to say I think the writer isn't allowed to create a character that is 100% tsun and no dere who acts sweet but is secretly completely self-centered. That's a legitimate character type. The issue I have is twofold. First, the idea that such a character should be sympathetic baffles me. If the author wants us to dislike Kirino at this point then mission accomplished but I was under the impression based on the title and premise that we're supposed to want Kyouske and Kirino to grow closer together and I personally have no desire for anything like that. If this was a VN I'd be rushing to the Manami route and never looking back.

Secondly, I question people's characterization of Kirino as tsundere. I feel like we're working under the assumption that any eligible female character is presumed to have a soft spot for the protagonist unless proven otherwise. I don't see any sign of Kirino having a dere side towards Kyouske other than the assumption that a sister should love her brother and the fact that she's neck deep (or i guess based on the first episode over her head) in siscon games. I don't buy it at this point. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like tsunderes and rarely find the payoff worth it. But nothing is worth the level of abuse Kyouske takes from Kirino.

[Johnny]

She's a bitch of a sister point blank. My younger sister of several years and I have fought tooth an nail at times to the point of not talking to each other for days. However, we'll always make up and she actually shows that she cares through various ways, i.e hug or whatever...

I've yet to see anything from Kirino that she cares or hell even acknowledges Kyosuke when it's not in her best interest. Maybe I've missed something like an underlining facial expression or whatever. Like the scene where they met each other with him coming out of the bath. I'm not Kakashi and can easily see underneath the underneath...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DasDingus

If the author wants us to dislike Kirino at this point then mission accomplished but I was under the impression based on the title and premise that we're supposed to want Kyouske and Kirino to grow closer together and I personally have no desire for anything like that.

That's the impression I had too.

Which is partly why I expected Kirino to become nicer/less abusive over time.

But if she doesn't change, I also have no desire for Kyousuke and Kirino to grow closer together. Why would I want to wish such a thing on a decent guy like Kyousuke? He's done nothing to deserve a long-term abusive relationship like that.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I figure it's just that she doesn't want him to "get the wrong idea" and so is trying to keep him at a safe distance. If he gets too close/friendly to her, she may actually have to redefine their relationship, and I'm not sure that she really has a good understanding of what a normal platonic sibling relationship should look like (especially given the bias of all the games she plays).

I can understand that perspective, and I agree with it to a degree. In this case, it is her insecurity about how the world perceives her based on her 2D game experience, which she does not want to duplicate in real life. She is afraid that any brotherly/sisterly bond would be perceived as unhealthy based on the Japanese culture and view of siscon games. Which then leads to what you mention about how she does not know how real normal platonic sibling relationships are like.

In effect, she reflects more of her real life circumstances with her only experience, which are the games she play.

Although I understand her better, thank you, it still does not excuse her behavior towards her brother. In retrospect, these are all selfish behaviors on her part to feel secure, but it only adds more to her frustrations inside.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Basically, I don't think she sees him as a loser brother anymore than Rinko sees the protagonist as a loser brother in the game Kirino's playing. Her ego won't allow her to praise him because it's like giving up control, and she may be unsure of what would happen next. Giving up control is the one thing over-achievers don't generally like to do.

IMO, of course...

I also agree with you that she does not want to give up control. But then, our opinions differ from there. I perceive her as not want to give up control to the one who has been below her all her life. She does not want to admit that he is better than she is in some areas. It pains her to actually have to ask him for help, hence in the last episode, she declared that there will only be one more life lesson left. She felt she does not need him, and annoyed that he is actually useful.

Well, that is my opinion, as well.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

a) Kirino is, on the whole, a very friendly person. She's nothing but bright and cheerful to anyone whose name isn't Kyosuke or Kuroneko

Actually, I see another flaw in her that I did not think about before. She is a fake in the way she acts friendly towards everyone else. She has to put up a front in order to fit in and pretend to be the perfect model student. She is upset at Kyosuke and worried about him spilling the beans because he knows her true self. Also, she acts the most like her true self when she is with Kuroneko and does not need to put up an act.

There are ways to be truly friendly and also gain respect, like what Kyosuke does. Her way of doing things actually will make her truly lonely one day if she does not change her ways (from what I have seen in real life).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't care what is behind the abuse of an abusive person, it is still not something that should be tolerated on a long-term basis. Any story that suggests otherwise is, frankly, putting out some very bad ideas.

It's fiction, man. Kirino is not real. You don't have to be able to relate to her as if she were a real live human being -- she's a character in a fictional story. The "abuse" -- yes, in quotes -- is no different than Naru punches or anything else in the long comedic tradition of anime. Your not finding it funny is no different than your not finding the tsuntsun side of a tsundere cute, and this is precisely why no amount of discussion is ever going to convince you of a thing.

Equating it with wife-beating? A long-term abusive relationship? Whether it'd hold up as abuse in the court of law?

Take a pill, man... it's make-believe. She's not going to hurt you or anyone. Just because people like Kirino's character and understand where she's coming from in the context of this fictional story (based on tropes in other fictional stories) doesn't mean they support domestic violence.

I can scarcely believe you took us there. I'm going to ask you nicely to just back down. Enough already.

[Undertaker]

@Triple_R

That's the difference in culture than, my Asian up-bringing demands that I have relations with family members that I don't like or can't stand. and as far as sibling goes, I need to protect them no matter what as the oldest sibling.

You can disagree, but that how my society taught me and that's how I was raised. If my sibling ends up messed up and I don't help them when I could have, then I failed as a brother and will be treated accordinlyg when I went back to Taiwan. Hell, my mom was blasted by our family elders and other family member for not being back there taking care of my grandpa when he had surgery. Even thought my dad was there for 3 month and I took a month off from work to go there after he's back. And that's despite the fact, my aunt is living 5 mins away from my grandparents and my uncle is living next door!!!!!! All because she's the wife of the oldest son.



As for Kirino's action. Yeah she was the one that dragged Kyosuke in with her "counseling" but the reason behind it was that she needs a culprit more than anything. She didn't expect Kyosuke to did what he did afterward. If you wtach it again, all she did was showing him her collections. Kyosuke was the one that suggests internet meeting, the one who decided to stand up to their dad, the one decide to go to Natsu-Comi, the one who try to fix her friendship with Ayase, the one who.....

Granted, with all that Kyosuke had done for her, Kirino should be grateful, but with all due respect, she did not ask for those involvement. She only showed him the collection and force him to play eroge so she has someone discuss them with that's all. If you look it that way, it could be her way of trying to ask for attention.


@DasDingus

Kirino is still a tsundere, albeit an extremely tsun one. The broadest explanation for tsundere is that their speech belies their true feeling. And Kirino qualifies that, while it not as easy to spot, you can still find hints that Kirino's action and speech is not inductive of what she feel. And while I don't love her character, not in LN and even less in anime, I still finds her to be cute at certain scene and that''s enough for me to not dislike her and apparently for the author, that's enough for Kyosuke as well.

I'm not going to use the LN because that's too easy (and against spoiler rule), but for example, in episode 4 when Kanako and Ayase visits Kirino's room and Kyosuke was next door. Kirino began to rant and degrading Kyosuke only after Ayase complimented him, but after Kanako starts to degrading Kyosuke as well, note that Kirino suddenly shuts up and didn't talk. Those are little hints that Kirino doesn't hat Kyosuke as much as she claims to be (or she believe herself to be). There an Chinese saying love and hate is only separates by a line and there are plenty of anime that shows that.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It's fiction, man. Kirino is not real. You don't have to be able to relate to her as if she were a real live human being -- she's a character in a fictional story. The "abuse" -- yes, in quotes -- is no different than Naru punches or anything else in the long comedic tradition of anime. Your not finding it funny is no different than your not finding the tsuntsun side of a tsundere cute, and this is precisely why no amount of discussion is ever going to convince you of a thing.

Why, yes we all realize these cartoons don't resemble people-- I hope. But you know, ideas can be powerful things and concepts and symbols can mean a lot to people. Anyhow, a certain logic to what those pictures on the screen convey is subject to interpretation, some a bit more outlandish than others. It's inevitable that some of the perceived logic doesn't sit well with some.

But if we view this work as completely detatched from reality, then there's no point in any discussion, really.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by DasDingus

I'd argue against her sweet side being the default. The way I see it is she's only sweet to people whom she either wants something from or can't get away with being mean to. She ranges from indifferent to cold towards Saori and she's openly hostile towards Kuroneko and Kyouske. Who else do we really see her interact with? Her parents? Teachers? The only times we ever see her act sweet is when she's dealing with somebody in a position of power or she wants something. I'm inclined to believe her sweet act is just that, an act.

Well, she's also perfectly friendly and polite to her anti-otaku classmate at the start of the second episode, she's pleasant and giddy when talking to her friend over the phone during the first, and she remains civil to Ayase during their fight in episode five even though her response to finding out Kirino's an otaku is pretty harsh. Hopefully we'll see her interact with some others throughout the last few episodes; my gut feeling is that in general she's probably a pleasant enough person and there needs to be some specific reason to change that, but I'm not going to contest the point because there's not enough material to work with right now to argue either way.

And to clarify in case Triple got the wrong idea, I wasn't trying to condone or excuse the physical abuse in that post of mine; I discard it altogether, actually, on grounds of being slapstick.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Well, she's also perfectly friendly and polite to her anti-otaku classmate at the start of the second episode, she's pleasant and giddy when talking to her friend over the phone during the first, and she remains civil to Ayase during their fight in episode five even though her response to finding out Kirino's an otaku is pretty harsh. Hopefully we'll see her interact with some others throughout the last few episodes; my gut feeling is that in general she's probably a pleasant enough person and there needs to be some specific reason to change that, but I'm not going to contest the point because there's not enough material to work with right now to argue either way.

And to clarify in case Triple got the wrong idea, I wasn't trying to condone or excuse the physical abuse in that post of mine; I discard it altogether, actually, on grounds of being slapstick.

You make good points. It's nice to recollect when Kirino was indeed treating people like other people. And honestly, until episode 7 or so, I thought she was just an immature girl but with a firm sense of reality. Her quote about 2d/3d in episode 1 remains one of my favorite from her.

But it still makes me wonder why a socially capable and intelligent girl would engage in this behavior. I'm certainly hoping for a reason, but would really want this info. It's a bit frustrating since the series is almost over; so praying for a second season.

[DingoEnderZOE2]

I overall enjoyed this casual episode. But there was one thing in particulur that made me raise an eyebrow:

Did Kirino blow off work to play an Ero-game???? It sure looked like she did.