Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

They did not false information. The fact that Viletta was a [censored] {as usual} and Ohgi an idiot, had no relevance to the info in terms of Lelouch's actions. They just did not elaborate/looked into the meaning of his actions, most of the members. However, they did not "false" them.

Yes, they did. They told half of the truth, they told what would suit their situation. Half of the truth to get your own ends, is falsifying information. Ougi is on a cleaner slate than Viletta, as she is the most guilty of only telling on half of the reality. Ougi is guilty for being an idiot and turning everything into a witch hunt. They cried witch, and the Order listened because they were fed only half of the truth about Geass.

The simple fact that they did not elaborate means they told what suited them, this is akin to lying.

Originally Posted by Levy

^It's true. As critical as one can be toward them, they did not false anything.

I also think that Kallen understood that what she knew about Lelouch (his background, his family, more infos on geass and such) was something that was useless in terms of 'cleaning' Lelouch's image in the eyes of her comrades, moreover after his 'I lol at you my pawns' line in the hangar.
And, no, she seems not really willing to punch anyone, just emotionally crushed.
She's forgivefull, Kallen, her way...

Euphemia accident can be cleared up.
The Geass's true power can be explained.
She can point out where he got them.
She can point out that Geass can only be used once.
She can slap the idiots for being idiots and nearly ruining everything they worked for.
Kallen is forgiveful? Even the people that were nice to her, she had no qualms with killing when necessary outside of the Student Council.
The only people she's been forgiveful to are Lelouch and her mother.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Yes, they did. They told half of the truth, they told what would suit their situation. Half of the truth to get your own ends, is falsifying information. Ougi is on a cleaner slate than Viletta, as she is the most guilty of only telling on half of the reality. Ougi is guilty for being an idiot and turning everything into a witch hunt. They cried witch, and the Order listened because they were fed only half of the truth about Geass.

The simple fact that they did not elaborate means they told what suited them, this is akin to lying.

1+1 = 2.
If someone tells you that, will you tell him "false?" No. However, "2" can be a result as well from 5-3, 10-8 etc If that said-someone insists that 1+1=2 ONLY, then we have a brain problem. This is what happened in 19::
BK were not twisting facts, they just had a braincell all together and they were stuck in ONLY one thing-explanation. They did not look more, they did not care more, they just had the super-impressive stupidity to accept only one explanation and did go with that.
And yes, stupidity can be oblivious, tell us something new.

[Levy]

@Frost: Are you totally sure that Kallen had all the knowledge on the things you pointed out? How you deduce this?

Anyway, I doubt that even that would have been enough to change things, considering all the rest. A better developed storytelling for the mutiny won't have hurted, but I guess we all agree on that ^^;

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The only people she's been forgiveful to are Lelouch and her mother.

Alright, i love my Kallen and i love my Kalulu but let us NOT be that biased.
We only know what you mentioned, only exactly because she had right to be angry/sad/whatever with them. Did Ohgi or someone else ever betrayed her and she went all wacko or moe with him/her? We can't know that.

As for Turn 19 and her possible reaction, i think she would facepalm with the stupidity of her comrades. She was not exactly happy as well in Turn 2 with Lelouch, but he explained to her and she decided to believe him. Hmm, bad that BK just like to jump on the train of assault-immediately.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

1+1 = 2.
If someone tells you that, will you tell him "false?" No. However, "2" can be a result as well from 5-3, 10-8 etc If that said-someone insists that 1+1=2 ONLY, then we have a brain problem. This is what happened in 19::
BK were not twisting facts, they just had a braincell all together and they were stuck in ONLY one thing-explanation. They did not look more, they did not care more, they just had the super-impressive stupidity to accept only one explanation and did go with that.
And yes, stupidity can be oblivious, tell us something new.

Here I will simply put forth a similar scenario:
"That man is a murderer!"
Everyone attacks the man and without asking him, kills him for being a murderer.

Unfortunately, that man was actually a police man that had killed bad people in an attempt to save others. On the way he may have had to harm an innocent bystandered indirectly, but he was saving many from bad guys. But... the person forgot to mention that.

This is falsifying the truth. It is like lying.

Originally Posted by Levy

@Frost: Are you totally sure that Kallen had all the knowledge on the things you pointed out? How you deduce this?

Anyway, I doubt that even that would have been enough to change things, considering all the rest. A better developed storytelling for the mutiny won't have hurted, but I guess we all agree on that ^^;

Okouchi's interview at the start of R2 where he filled us in on what Kallen and C.C. had been up to over the year. It is stated that C.C. explained to Kallen everything, the Geass, the past, everything. Its also notable that Kallen has full understanding of Geass that she displays in the show itself. "His Geass won't work without eye contact" when Lelouch faces off against Guilford, as an example.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Alright, i love my Kallen and i love my Kalulu but let us NOT be that biased.
We only know what you mentioned, only exactly because she had right to be angry/sad/whatever with them. Did Ohgi or someone else ever betrayed her and she went all wacko or moe with him/her? We can't know that.

As for Turn 19 and her possible reaction, i think she would facepalm with the stupidity of her comrades. She was not exactly happy as well in Turn 2 with Lelouch, but he explained to her and she decided to believe him. Hmm, bad that BK just like to jump on the train of assault-immediately.

That is rather irrelevant. This is fiction. Random "what if" scenarios do not matter. In the story she was ever portrayed forgiving Lelouch and her mother. On the other hand, she was shown unable to forgive enemy soldiers for what they were doing even though they were doing as told. We also know she is a person that does not forgive easily, looking at what Okouchi said about her character.

Ohgi used her as a lure to get Lelouch out, I'd call that a betrayal of trust if nothing else.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

That is rather irrelevant. This is fiction. Random "what if" scenarios do not matter. In the story she was ever portrayed forgiving Lelouch and her mother. On the other hand, she was shown unable to forgive enemy soldiers for what they were doing even though they were doing as told. We also know she is a person that does not forgive easily, looking at what Okouchi said about her character.

Ohgi used her as a lure to get Lelouch out, I'd call that a betrayal of trust if nothing else.

Then again, Ougi was her beloved brother's loyal friend and tried to take care of her. He may have betrayed her trust, but since he was quite close to Kallen, and because she understood Zero Requiem's purpose, there's a good chance she would be willing to give him another chance.

[Levy]

Oh yes, she perfectly know about the Geass from CC, you are right.

The Euphie incident I'm quite skeptical about..... I don't know... seing how much of a troublesome thing to face it is for Lelouch, I'd be surprised that C.C. would have told Karen that without his authorization.. somehow, it doesn't sound. Was it covered specifically in the interview you mentioned?


and *yaaawn* alright, everything in the BK is mean and is lying. Fixed. =P
Your example is quite fitting but flawed somehow: a man that kills another man is always a murder, no matter the reason. Calling him a murder is not lying. Wanting his head- we can talk about it, I'm personally contrary, but none is lying calling him a murder.

and that's the same.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Levy

Oh yes, she perfectly know about the Geass from CC, you are right.

The Euphie incident I'm quite skeptical about..... I don't know... seing how much of a troublesome thing to face it is for Lelouch, I'd be surprised that C.C. would have told Karen that without his authorization.. somehow, it doesn't sound. Was it covered specifically in the interview you mentioned?

She was there when Suzaku talked about Euphemia and geass in the cave, I wouldn't be half surprised if she inquired. It is a more or less known/accepted thing that Kallen knows the dirt on Lelouch's hands when she goes back to him.

and *yaaawn* alright, everything in the BK is mean and is lying. Fixed. =P
Your example is quite fitting but flawed somehow: a man that kills another man is always a murder, no matter the reason. Calling him a murder is not lying. Wanting his head- we can talk about it, I'm personally contrary, but none is lying calling him a murder.

and that's the same.

You couldn't have missed the point more.

Calling someone a murderer is not the issue, calling someone a murderer and leaving it at that when there are reasons for those actions, is falsifying information. It is lying. There are no ifs ands or buts about this, if you tell half the truth about something when you know the truth because of a vendetta, then you are a swine and a liar. Pure and simple.

Batman, for example, can be called a bully who beats up people on the streets. If you said just that, then you are slandering his name. Slander is slander.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Then again, Ougi was her beloved brother's loyal friend and tried to take care of her. He may have betrayed her trust, but since he was quite close to Kallen, and because she understood Zero Requiem's purpose, there's a good chance she would be willing to give him another chance.

This, I can understand. Though even then, if it was not for their actions Lelouch would not have needed to even start ZR and get himself killed for the better of the world, he could have lived to see it.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Here I will simply put forth a similar scenario:
"That man is a murderer!"
Everyone attacks the man and without asking him, kills him for being a murderer.

Unfortunately, that man was actually a police man that had killed bad people in an attempt to save others. On the way he may have had to harm an innocent bystandered indirectly, but he was saving many from bad guys. But... the person forgot to mention that.

This is falsifying the truth. It is like lying.



Okouchi's interview at the start of R2 where he filled us in on what Kallen and C.C. had been up to over the year. It is stated that C.C. explained to Kallen everything, the Geass, the past, everything. Its also notable that Kallen has full understanding of Geass that she displays in the show itself. "His Geass won't work without eye contact" when Lelouch faces off against Guilford, as an example.

The example you set is SO lol, that i can't even elaborate properly. I mean, Lelouch was NO saint either, it is not like BK could accuse that easily someone else.
Lelouch's hands were dirty, no doubt about it. They were just morons, that they did go only into one tiny direction, instead of giving him the default right to reply.

As for Kallen, maybe. But Ohgi, unfortunately or not, is important to her. We saw her reaction in epi 3 {or 4?} when he was released, she went and hugged him and was happy to see all of her comrades again. I don't think she would Guren-slap them because they were freaking idiots.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

The example you set is SO lol, that i can't even elaborate properly. I mean, Lelouch was NO saint either, it is not like BK could accuse that easily someone else.
Lelouch's hands were dirty, no doubt about it. They were just morons, that they did go only into one tiny direction, instead of giving him the default right to reply.

As for Kallen, maybe. But Ohgi, unfortunately or not, is important to her. We saw her reaction in epi 3 {or 4?} when he was released, she went and hugged him and was happy to see all of her comrades again. I don't think she would Guren-slap them because they were freaking idiots.

You've also missed my point. I never set anyone as the saint in my example, I said that the person called a murderer had dirt on his hands. He had hurt innocent people, and he had killed. There is no saint here, and never was one implied.

The point of the matter is that telling only a part of the truth, and spinning it to suit your needs, as Viletta and Ougi did, is called slander. You are telling only the part of the truth that suits you and this is called lying and leading people on.

They, for lack of a better word, lied.

Not everyone, only two people sold out Lelouch and that would be Ougi and Viletta. Frankly, he also forgot about her and worried only about Viletta and then tried to use Kallen as bait. I don't know how good of a person he really is.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Calling someone a murderer is not the issue, calling someone a murderer and leaving it at that when there are reasons for those actions, is falsifying information. It is lying.

Hm... I think that's mostly a matter of definition.
From my point of view, lying is saying something that is completely false. Everything else would be telling a half-truth - something that can be just as deceitful, questionable and despisable, but still isn't the same as lying.

This, I can understand. Though even then, if it was not for their actions Lelouch would not have needed to even start ZR and get himself killed for the better of the world, he could have lived to see it.

We can't possibly say what would have happened to Lelouch if the Black Knights hadn't betrayed him, and it's the same for Kallen.
Maybe Lelouch would have stayed with her. Maybe he would have found another way to "atone for his sins". Maybe he would still have chosen Zero Requiem.
Just like Kallen, we'll never know, and that's why I don't see Ougi as someone directly resposible for Lelouch's death.

[Haku-Men]

Lelouch is responsible for his own death. He chose to go down the path of the demon from the very first episode and knew the consequences for his deeds, the Black Knights betraying him is what I would call karma really.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

You've also missed my point. I never set anyone as the saint in my example, I said that the person called a murderer had dirt on his hands. He had hurt innocent people, and he had killed. There is no saint here, and never was one implied.

The point of the matter is that telling only a part of the truth, and spinning it to suit your needs, as Viletta and Ougi did, is called slander. You are telling only the part of the truth that suits you and this is called lying and leading people on.

They, for lack of a better word, lied.

Not everyone, only two people sold out Lelouch and that would be Ougi and Viletta. Frankly, he also forgot about her and worried only about Viletta and then tried to use Kallen as bait. I don't know how good of a person he really is.

Come on, Oghi was even stupid enough to reveal his feelings, he was yelling "i wanted to believe in him, i really did." < --- for him, i can give a bit of justification because i believe that his not wise decisions, come from pure stupidity and lack of leading skills.
Viletta on the other hand, is not exactly a saint. She was caught into the fire, no way she would tell the truth. Of course, her pretty mouth allowed to tell the "he used geass on me" and play the victim which make her qualify more than a bad person. If she had kept her mouth shut totally, it would be better.

The whole point is, that BK are hot-level-headed gang, that most of the times go with their emotions and not with rationality. Lelouch was the genius mind that gave them pretty much "life" changing the kinda pathetic group they were.

Also, another thing i wanted to add, in episode 22 in the detour Kallen+Lelouch have, Kallen says it was because Oghi told her as well to protect Zero that she did that. Ohgi is important to Kallen and so is Kallen to Ohgi. The whole Viletta-romance at times, can be seen as a fiasco-writing, in a way, that Ohgi was so stupid that wanted to die on episode 15. Unless, he was THAT stupid in the end.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hm... I think that's mostly a matter of definition.
From my point of view, lying is saying something that is completely false. Everything else would be telling a half-truth - something that can be just as deceitful, questionable and despisable, but still isn't the same as lying.

I consider deceiving someone, lying to them.

What definition of lie are you using?
Princeton defines it as:
To tell an untruth; pretend with intent to deceive; a statement that deviates from or perverts the truth.

Seems like exactly what Ougi and Viletta did.

We can't possibly say what would have happened to Lelouch if the Black Knights hadn't betrayed him, and it's the same for Kallen.
Maybe Lelouch would have stayed with her. Maybe he would have found another way to "atone for his sins". Maybe he would still have chosen Zero Requiem.
Just like Kallen, we'll never know, and that's why I don't see Ougi as someone directly resposible for Lelouch's death.

When did I say he was directly responsible for his death? I simply said there could have been an alternative, but despite all that, Ougi is still culpable in the fact because it was his deceit that led to Lelouch being left with no choice.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I consider deceiving someone, lying to them.

What definition of lie are you using?
Princeton defines it as:
To tell an untruth; pretend with intent to deceive; a statement that deviates from or perverts the truth.

Seems like exactly what Ougi and Viletta did.

I am not trying to justify that *biip*-head Ohgi {Viletta is out of it btw, i won't care to explain her *biip*, because it is *biip*, she would better stay posing on her lame-bikini} but you make it sound like Ohgi, had a motive to kill Zero. I don't think so, like the rest of the gang, they were really ready to judge Lelouch's actions without even looking a bit more.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Come on, Oghi was even stupid enough to reveal his feelings, he was yelling "i wanted to believe in him, i really did." < --- for him, i can give a bit of justification because i believe that his not wise decisions, come from pure stupidity and lack of leading skills.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Unless, he was THAT stupid in the end.

I can agree with this, and the second quote, I think sums it up.

He was that stupid. Nothing has ever portrayed the man as intelligent.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Viletta on the other hand, is not exactly a saint. She was caught into the fire, no way she would tell the truth. Of course, her pretty mouth allowed to tell the "he used geass on me" and play the victim which make her qualify more than a bad person. If she had kept her mouth shut totally, it would be better.

Agreeable. She is the one most guilty of deceit/lying/whatever people here want to call it.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

The whole point is, that BK are hot-level-headed gang, that most of the times go with their emotions and not with rationality. Lelouch was the genius mind that gave them pretty much "life" changing the kinda pathetic group they were.

You can't blame the Order for this, Tamaki, Diethard, both tried to defend Lelouch. What are they supposed to do when their leader, held on a leash by his lover, comes in barking like a moron and she comes in perversing the reality?

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Also, another thing i wanted to add, in episode 22 in the detour Kallen+Lelouch have, Kallen says it was because Oghi told her as well to protect Zero that she did that. Ohgi is important to Kallen and so is Kallen to Ohgi. The whole Viletta-romance at times, can be seen as a fiasco-writing, in a way, that Ohgi was so stupid that wanted to die on episode 15. Unless, he was THAT stupid in the end.

Does not really change the fact that, unlike Kallen, Ougi forgot about her. He was too self absorbed with what was in his pants that he needed to be reminded that they could finally save Kallen.

For the post above, I am not saying he wanted him dead, but he was nevertheless an idiot and selfish when all is said and done.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Yes, they did. They told half of the truth, they told what would suit their situation.

I don't really agree but I am tired of this debate that comes up from time to time again and again.

I just have one question. I can understand that people dislike ougi and villetta if they think they are bad people who lied blablabla, but quid of lelouch?

Because of him, euphemia died and many japanese too, then he lied to everyone and used his own mistake for his rebellion. Rather than saying the truth as a man.

If I was a japanese in code geass and learned about that, i would:

- Hate geass to no end.
- Would want Lelouch dead, whatever happened, he is responsible.

So, what makes lelouch more forgivable and less bashable than ougi and villetta? Tell me please.

Also If I was ougi and villetta, I would suspect that he used geass, and on euphemia too.

[Haku-Men]

Originally Posted by Narona

I don't really agree but I am tired of this debate that comes up from time to time again and again.

I just have one question. I can understand that people dislike ougi and villetta if they think they are bad people who lied blablabla, but quid of lelouch?

Because of him, euphemia died and many japanese too, then he lied to everyone and used his own mistake for his rebellion. Rather than saying the truth as a man.

If I was a japanese in code geass and learned about that, i would:

- Hate geass to no end.
- Would want Lelouch dead, whatever happened, he is responsible.

So, what makes lelouch more forgivable and less bashable than ougi and villetta? Tell me please.

Also If I was ougi and villetta, I would suspect that he used geass, and on euphemia too.

To answer your question Miss Narona, they're not the main characters and everything you've just listed is what the audience and fans expect from Lelouch since they know he's a fabulous bastard and for anyone to be against him makes them wrong.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Btw, in relevance to a post you made earlier and this is the only thing that i would agree with them and would not look for more evidence, was the Euphie-accident. We vieweds do know that it was a total-bad-karma one, but afterwards Lelouch acted how we all know he acted. I think just that incident alone that also involved Japanese, triggered them all more than anything else. Even if Lelouch tried to explain, no way they would believe him.

That's the point. The viewers juge the actions of some characters as if the people in this series had everything in hands to make the best choices.

Lelouch never denied to be a manipulator and a liar. Each time that someone accused him of something, he just laughed and said that "yeah he did out of LULZ for his own interests".

Just what happened with euphemia (the japanese who were killed, the behavior of lelouch [why did he say that to euphie? Because of pride? stupidity?], and the lies), given what the people "in the anime" knew is enough to hate lelouch and geass till the point of wanting him dead.